S

SvingenB

Well Known Member
I received my new skins for the HS, and while trying to fit them on the skeleton today, they just didn't fit. One surface was longer tham the other. When measuring them, one side is approx 1/4 " shorter than the other, looks like they bent the skin blindfolded or something.

This happened when I specifically asked them to check the dimensions because the exact same thing has happened a few months ago to another person (read about it here). I could just contact Van's and get new skins, but the problem is that shipping cost is 2-3 times the cost of the skins, and this is the second pair of skins I have.

The other error in the kit was the HS-406 being made totally wrong, so it will not fit the fwd part of the skin. (The reason I had to order the second pair of skins). Van's must have known about this for ages, and they have done nothing to fix it, not even mentioned it in the manuals or drawings. When I contacted Van's about this, they initially refused to believe me, after several mails with lots of photos, they finally acknowledged the problem.

OK, none of these faults are show stoppers and can be fixed, but where is the quality control at Van's? Do they have any - at all? I can't just get a new skin for "free", it will cost me 3-400 US$ in shipping. Right now I am very disapointed, and I regret that I didn't rather get a high quality kit (the way kits should be) from somewhere in Europe, even though the initial cost would be more.

A quality control that consists purely of shipping new parts, is just an excuse for extremely bad quality IMO.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
SvingenB said:
Right now I am very disapointed, and I regret that I didn't rather get a high quality kit (the way kits should be) from somewhere in Europe, even though the initial cost would be more.
Click to expand...

I doubt you will find a kit that is perfect for any amount of money.
 
It's been a very long time, I am a slow builder, but if I recall correctly, at least on the -9, the skins were a slightly different length between top and bottom, as I first tried to fit them wrong. Is this a possibility with your kit? Just trying to help....
 
Very frustrating I am sure...

I have had very good luck with all of their products however, I certainly understand and sympathize with your frustrations. Where you are located ampifies these types of issues greatly. I would encourage you to soldier on as the finished product is an outstanding value......
 
My 6A had many errors in the plans and a few in some of the parts and these had been that way for over 10 years without correction. The new kits are way better but there have still been a few parts made wrong on my RV10 QB.

It is frustrating and there is no good, cheap, safe way to ship bent skins to Europe. If this is the second set, Van's needs to step up to the plate and make it right and pay for the shipping as well. This is not fair treatment, especially after you warned them what to look out for. I'd be ticked off as well.

You'd think they would want to correct this for all future orders- otherwise there will be many more disgruntled builders.
 
This is a very old problem. One that I was hoping could have been solved, in fact I personally think it has more to do with the riveted trailing edge on the nine than anything else (I also love conspiracy theorys). I live close enough to Van's that when my skin came up tweeked I took it back to them so they could replace it with a new one and check the original in their shop. I love the prepunched kit idea but there are some areas where I think I'd rather drill my own holes the elevator skins being one of them and the most recent example being the tip up canopy skin; #707 I believe is the skins part number. As far as shouting out about Van's poor quality, I think you're being pretty hard on them. No kit is going to be perfect but this one comes awfully close.

elevatorhook.jpg
 
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Just a thought

Vans makes a great kit at a great price....but....

As a business owner.....a few suggestions.....

Why not hire a person for $40K, give them the plans on computer. Have a monthly meeting with all their tech/engineer guys and look at the problems that keep occuring and FIX the plans, before they print them and send them off to the next builder...constant refinement, at minimal cost. In one year they could clean up 90% of the same issues that everyone has and calls about. Its not rocket science. Fix the errors and/or add a pic or paragraph of detail on the issues that cause so much grief.

I got a bad part and after spending $30k on stuff, they insisted i pay the $28 and they would refund it when the bad part got to them. Silly.

Order the api fuel pump for $600 and they give you 3 pieces of mangled fuel line that even a magician could not make work. I swear they cut it with a backhoe. So....a week later you have to call and order $10 worth of fuel line. Again, shipping costs way more than pipe. Goofy.

Just seems they could so easily improve things for them and us.
 
It turns out to be worse than I first thought. Both skins are bent wrong, the funny part is that they are both exactly "equally wrong", about 1/4". They are not only offset, they are bent diagonally across the correct bend line, so one side is short, the other is too long. There simply is no way they will fit without twisting the skeleton to a propeller shape.

In another thread, here the same problem is explained.
 
Bj?rnar,
If I understand correctly, you have two issues. One, the bend in the skin is incorrectly placed, and two, you have a nose rib that does not meet the skin?

IF Van's can't ship you new skins for free (shipping included), consider buying a sheet of aluminum and simply cutting and bending your own. Do an oversize layout, place the bend, drill and cleco, then mark all the edges for final trim.

A nose rib is very easy to make with a simple wooden hammerform. I just made a nose rib for the vertical stabilizer on my -8 (new shape to fit the stabilizer after a trim to clear the fastback turtledeck), so I probably have some photos in the build log to show you how.
 
I guess with the number of kits some of that is likely to happen, but is not as common as your post might suggest. Early kits or plans built, you could get a license to build with a set of plans and source everything on your own. Back then you could save money by building from plans (maybe). Now Vans has the power to buy material in bulk/volume to the point if you sourced the material to build 1 airplane I'm pretty sure you would spend more than a kit. It is as if you buy the material at a discount and get all that labor for free. I understand you disappointment. I would be disappointed too. But, if it was me I would do as the previous post mentioned and source that material locally. (due to your location). Easily done for the -4. Then I would just use the scrapped material as needed for misc work later on. You would probably end up buying some misc material before the project is over so it ends up a wash.

--OR--

Do not ship that as a special order have it packed in your wing kit.
 
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bad skins... BAD

Hey Bjornar,

When I received my replacement HS skins from Van's, I was disappointed to see that they too were bent incorrectly - however, they weren't as bad as my originals.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43008524@N00/2233115314/

Eventually, I pulled the skin a bit to make it fit 'close' without twisting the skeleton. I also moved the skin as far outboard as possible to try and get adequate overhang on the short side. For final trimming, this meant I had to file down a LOT of the trailing edge on the other side of the skins (crappy job to do) and even then, one side is slightly shy of the called for overhang.

The 4 is the forgotten child at the factory, but it is still the sexiest in my books. Keep working at it!

Anybody want to buy some -4 HS skins?!:eek:

WRT the end ribs, you can cut the end flanges and make some 90 degree tabs to rivet on to the rib if you like. This is an acceptable practice. I'm leaving mine as is since it doesn't get riveted to the skin anyway.

Drop me an email if you want some more info on the skins.
 
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Had a PM asking about hammerforming. Here's how.

If you're only making a few parts, MDO board, dense plywood, or a hardwood board works fine. Cut a template to define the part, trace the shape onto the board, then cut just inside the line; you want the hammerform to be just a bit undersize. Sand the edge quarter-round where the bend will be formed for the flange on the part. Now trace another shape, cut it a 1/4" inside the line. This is your clamp board.

Trace again, this time on your aluminum. Cut the aluminum outside the line, the offset distance being just a fuzz more than the width of the flange you want on the finished part; 1/2", 5/8", whatever.

Stack the three parts in a sandwich, align them carefully, clamp, and drill two holes spaced along the centerline. Bolt the sandwich together with some scrap bolts and fender washers. Clamp the assembly to the edge of your work table, or put it in a vice. Now use a smooth face hammer to work around the edge, bending the flange over a little at a time. Don't make big hits and big bends. Imagine bending 10 degrees at a time for 9 laps around the perimeter of the part.

File or sand the flange edges to the finished width, flute if required, prep and paint.

Here's an example. The Showplanes fastback for the RV-8 requires the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer to be trimmed 10 degrees to clear the increased turtledeck angle. The Van's VS705 rib no longer fits correctly when you do that, despite the instructions in the Showplanes manual....which is no big deal. Just make a new part that fits.



 
Rivethead said:
This is a very old problem. One that I was hoping could have been solved, in fact I personally think it has more to do with the riveted trailing edge on the nine than anything else (I also love conspiracy theorys). I live close enough to Van's that when my skin came up tweeked I took it back to them so they could replace it with a new one and check the original in their shop. I love the prepunched kit idea but there are some areas where I think I'd rather drill my own holes the elevator skins being one of them and the most recent example being the tip up canopy skin; #707 I believe is the skins part number. As far as shouting out about Van's poor quality, I think you're being pretty hard on them. No kit is going to be perfect but this one comes awfully close.

elevatorhook.jpg
Click to expand...


Mine looked exactly like that except slightly worse, fixed in 5 seconds with a little extra fluting on the "long" side to shorten the rib at the trailing edge.

Kit was fine, I just hadn't fluted enough to match the matched holes.
 
Extra fluting :rolleyes: that certainly would have saved a bunch of time. Although the new skin fit exactly right and there were a few other issues with the skin that made me feel the skin was just plain made wrong. If I lived anywhere but where I do I'd have probably kept looking for a fix that wouldn't include waiting and shipping. All in all I'm glad I swapt skins.
 
grantcarruthers said:
Mine looked exactly like that except slightly worse, fixed in 5 seconds with a little extra fluting on the "long" side to shorten the rib at the trailing edge.

Kit was fine, I just hadn't fluted enough to match the matched holes.
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Matched Holes!?!?! I WISH! :D

Also, our problem is/was on the HS, not the elevator. Measured out of the box, the bend is in the wrong place on 4 out of 4 of my HS skins. That's a good tip to know about, though.
 
I received a mail from Van's saying they have hand picked new skins and will send them ASAP, free of charge. So, the service at Van's is no less than perfect, I have to admit :)

It makes me feel a bit bad about my first post, but it doesn't change the fact that things like this could so easely be avoided (they should not happen).

The 4 is the forgotten child at the factory, but it is still the sexiest in my books. Keep working at it!
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You are so right, and I will :)
 
True, but...

The Rocket is the sexiest! I know, I know, it's a -4 on the juice, isn't a real RV...too much engine, too little wing, blah blah! :) However comma, when you blast past an RV at 20 squared or see 3000 fpm on takeoff, you will forever be a convert!


It's not too late to convert that -4 to an HR2!

Rob Ray
RV4, built before electricity, flown 1500 hours, sold.
HR2 275 hours, rocks!
 
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Just an update. New skins have arrived. They are better, but not perfect. The thing is, as DiscoStu also has pointed out, that the skins are cut correctly and bent incorrectly, so one side will be too short. As we all now, trimming oversized parts is no problem, but adding material to undersized parts is impossible.

In the mail I got from Van's they say the cannot bend the skins more accurately than that. This makes me a bit (very) puzzled, because what they do is to cut the skins to accurate dimension, and then bend them using an inaccurate procedure. Everybody understands that this will be wrong, because two ends will be too long and the other two ends will be too short. In short, HS-401 skins from Van's cannot be used to build the HS according to the drawings, somewhere the overhang will be too little.

They have to do one of two things:
* Find a way to bend them correct.
* Make them oversized
 
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