MartySantic

MartySantic

Well Known Member
Dynon has recently released an upgrade to to D-180 firmware which will allow us to use an improved fuel pressure sensor BUT we MUST wait for another file, generated by Van's Aircraft (the locked settings file), before the upgrade from Dynon can be installed in our E-LSA RV-12s.

Recent communication with Van's has indicated the new locked file is NOT forthcoming. (Via the support line.)

Why must we wait for Van's?? Why the lock-down for the E-LSAs??

Would like a response from the folks at Van's? I really cannot understand the logic. Please!!

As Van's is NO longer supporting the D-180, WHY the LOCKDOWN??
 
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Unfortunately, now that the SLSA has changed avionics from the D-180 to Skyview, the rush to test the Dynon downloads to the 180 will take a back-seat. Not to mention, if the SLSA doesn't even have a D-180 in it, the testing issue just got even more interesting. Hindsight is 20/20 of course but those considering the 12 today might think about EAB for the simple reason of avionics. After certification and fly-off, all 12's become experimental and open to any change. The avionics upgrades however are controlled by Van's forever. If you do your own avionics, the airplane is truly in your control after certification...as it should be...you paid for it!

They have boxed themselves in now. At least until they know that all of the D-180 kits they shipped have been flown off. Until then, the settings on those D-180's have to be exactly the same as the one the certified or approved for the SLSA. That requires them to test any Dynon upgrade against those original settings.
 
I was looking at Dynon's downloads yesterday and noticed the new firmware. (I was hoping for a "Nav Source Lost" alarm fix for the AP). I emailed Dynon to see if it had anything good in it for the RV-12. I thought I would wait for the answer before contacting Van's, but I see you(Marty) already have.

I'm with you that we should be able to unlock them at this point, especially if they are really done supporting it. I can see the logic in locking it for SLSA, but our experimentals shouldn't be. No one told me this D-180 was going to come locked and with limited support. I'll contact Van's too after I hear from Dynon. They may just need a little time to work through it.
 
I have had to return my D-180 to Dynon for repairs and they updated it. Can they unlock it?
 
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The reason...

...is likely because Van's A/C is the name on the data plate on the ELSAs.

Tony
 
What am I missing here. Somewhere I had read that all you have to do is send the 180 into Dynon, and they will unlock it. Is this not true?
 
I sent my D-180 to Dynon due to an issue with below zero temperatures and reboot. It did NOT come back UNLOCKED!
 
Marty, it was this post from Joe that gave me that belief.

Mich48041 Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Riley TWP MI
Posts: 980

SkyView rumor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard a rumor that Van's will sell the SkyView by the end of the year.
At OSH, I asked Dynon if they would unlock the D-180 if I sold it for use in an aircraft other than a RV-12. The salesman said yes. Maybe they will unlock the SkyView (if necessary) for an alternate engine in a RV-12.
Joe Gores

MartySantic said:
I sent my D-180 to Dynon due to an issue with below zero temperatures and reboot. It did NOT come back UNLOCKED!
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Dynon has the file...they write the code for Van's to post on their website. Are they going to give you the file? Of course not...Vans is their customer, not us. It is the reason they can update your box if you send it in for repairs...they would consider it a necessary ingredient of the repair. If the reason is because of my data plate, why can I chop the wings in half but I can't update my glass panel?
 
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Marty, it was this post from Joe that gave me that belief.
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Dynon has the ability to unlock the D-180 IF they choose to do so. Their policy is NOT to unlock it for the RV-12. If the locked settings are not compatible with your alternative engine, then they MIGHT unlock the D-180 for you. But you would have to convince them that it is necessary.
The Dynon salesman did tell me that they would unlock my D-180 if I sold it for use in another aircraft (Not an RV-12). They would probably ask for proof, like a bill of sale.
Joe Gores
 
Did anyone ask Dynon if there are any other improvements in the new release, beyond the fuel sensor change?
 
Dynon Release Notes D-180

5.4.2
12/15/11
Added: Support for new Kavlico brand pressure sensors sold by Dynon.

Fixed: SETUP>SPDCAL feature for improving IAS accuracy at very low airspeeds.

Improved: Oil pressure filtering.

Added: Support for alternative 3rd party two-wire oil temperature sensors. See the support wiki for sensor details.
 
For what it's worth: Back in late summer 2010 when I was having my Dynon issues their tech people advised me they would not unlock Van's unless they were instructed to by Vans. The tech rep complained he may be able to solve my problem if they could get permission to unlock, but felt he could not get that ok from Vans. It's not that Vans is being difficult as there are likely too many hurdles of legal-shmegal. Is it that big a deal anyway, or do we 12 drivers get rankled over the control (doing what I want with my airplane) issue. My experiences with past upgrades have me feeling like I don't want to mess with the 180's head and worsen the function. (fun to yak about this tho).
Dick Seiders
 
Locked settings, etc

The 12 is a sweet flying airplane, it makes you fly good and feel good. If there is a drawback tho' it would be the electronic panel. Software upgrades trickier than necessary, sensitivity to the slightest changes in resistance in circuits, the locked settings, unstable horizons and skid ball, network cold soak issues, multiple alarms, etc have all been mentioned and discussed in detail. And I don't read of too many definitive fixes. I have had some of these issues myself, I have the AP74 and second display and the more stuff you have the more likely you will run into problems it seems :eek:. This is a hobby for me and I don't take any of it too seriously unless of course it threatens my life, which it doesn't.
The newest iteration (Skyview) will probably eliminate some of these issues but may come with its own baggage.
Personally I like the glass, but considering the demographics of the RV-12ers (not of the computer generation) I wonder if a lot more kits would be sold if there were a simple round gauge panel option with a modern GPS? Just talking...

Tony
 
Just a note - -

2 - 3 weeks ago, I took the cowls off and decided to solder the 3 engine sender wire ends. When I re-installed them after soldering, I also put a small amount of vaseline on each terminal. Since then, those 3 readings have been the most stable ever. Might reflect on crimping, but the readings are closer ( CHT's ), and the oil temp more stable. For what its worth.

John Bender
348.6 as of today
 
Tony_T said:
Personally I like the glass, but considering the demographics of the RV-12ers (not of the computer generation) I wonder if a lot more kits would be sold if there were a simple round gauge panel option with a modern GPS? Just talking...
Click to expand...

Well, Tony, what do you think about this: I AM a computer guy, working in software for more than 20 years and that is the reason why I would feel just fine behind a six-pack of steam gauges with an optional modern GPS on the center console. :)
It seems that every marketing study though shows that we are extinct. Yet when we talk, it seems that no one really needs all that glass ....
 
"Software upgrades trickier than necessary, sensitivity to the slightest changes in resistance in circuits, the locked settings, unstable horizons and skid ball, network cold soak issues, multiple alarms, etc have all been mentioned and discussed in detail."

Thats funny Tony....Analogous of conversations I have with my Wife and Daughter. Amen on the steam gauges. :D

Gary Eldridge
 
My D180 is on it's way back to Dynon for the 2nd time (50 hrs. TT). Can't say I have not pondered the steam gauges!
 
Want control over your plane? Forget ELSA.

Nothing says you MUST build an ELSA to fly Light Sport. Register it as Amateur Built and you can use any avionics you want. You'll just have to build your own panel like any other RV. As long as the data plate says ELSA, Vans will always have some control over your airplane. Of course if you're already certified as ELSA, this point is moot because you are probably stuck there forever. :( (Mel?) Or there's that loophole in the regs where you can change things after certification... not sure how far a builder should take that though.
 
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Katie, once the hours have been flown off of an ELSA it becomes experimental and you can change the avionics. EAB doesn't help if you bought the "proprietory avionics" panel offered by Van's. Unfortunately, no one was told beforehand (they know now!) that the free updates to your Dynon would require a decision by Van's as to whether they wanted you to have it or not. As Robert from Dynon says, "Van's is busy with Skyview" so it may be awhile before we have access to our "free" updates.
 
For what it is worth, here is a copy of what Dynon answered me to a query about unlocking - and Skyview, it answers some of the earlier questions:
"Vans actually holds the keys here. They configure the D180 and D100 settings files that we then install when we manufacture units. As such, we don't actually have a complete list of which exact settings are restricted, and which aren't, on hand. So you'll have to ask them for a complete inventory of "what is locked". The other side of the lock is that basically all of the settings, like EMS sensor types, red lines, and IAS V-speeds, are pre-configured to go out of the box.

All of the above currently applies to D100/D180 units only. SkyView doesn't currently have a system that supports settings restrictions, but this may not always be the case.

Under no circumstance are we able to "unlock" a unit. That ability belongs solely to Vans, per mutual agreement between Dynon and Vans."
 
I am getting more comfortable with the Dynon as I approach 50 hours. It is nice that everything is right there on the Dynon. But when the Dynon goes south, you also lose everything. A few months back my Dynon took failed at the run-up area. One minute all was well, then the horizon rolled inverted. To their credit, Dynon promply repaired it. I now have a back up ASI, altimeter, oil and fuel pressure. If I had a choice to order the 12 with round gauges or glass, I would't hesitate to go steam. I echo the wish that Vans offered both options as ELSA. It's nice they are putting all the time an energy into the new Skyview. But for what it is worth, the joy of an RV-12 is looking out the canopy an enjoying the view, not having a bigger video game in the panel.
 
Van's Locked Settings

Do you have some more info about your backup steam gages? A panel photo?

Some bigger airplanes have a nice little backup gage module with a cluster of miniature dials all in one place for that day when you need them.

I posted previously about having them - especially eng gages - when a situation was described about having erroneous oil pressure and temp readings. I found those disturbing because they could lead to a precautionary landing, as opposed to being merely a nuisance, or even inoperative (if the panel blanks.) Safer perhaps to not even know, instead of taking some sort of emergency action.

I have a lot of experience with both steam gage and glass cockpits on Boeing airplanes, and feel comfortable with both. However, like a previous poster mentioned, I am a long time computernik who feels comfortable with the glass despite having a lot of white hair. Not all old fogies are tech neanderthals!

One thing I like especially is the engine cluster - front and center - and with warning triggers. I have been taking dual in a C-172 in the hopes of knocking a lot of rust off my flying skills. Over there, somewhere on the right side, where the CFI can pay attention to them, are a bunch of dials essentially invisible to me - things like the fuel qty gages, oil press and temp, etc. Reminds me of my good old Cherokee days. Geez, they're hard to see, and read, and monitor. I guess I could train the wife to eyeball them regularly if I had one of those clunkers.

Meanwhile, this "locking down" of software etc is most interesting. Locked down DVDs and Smart phones are usually just a raw meat challenge to the computer hacking types out there. Wonder if any lurk on this list???

Bob Bogash
 
MartySantic said:
Thanks, Scott McD!!
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It had absolutely nothing to do with me, but here is a few facts (as I know them anyway) for everyone to ponder.

The release date Dynon published for the update was December 15. I do not know what date they actually posted it on their web site.

The information I have is that no one at Van's new it had been posted.
I was told that Dynon contacted Van's Engineering yesterday to let them know that the new release was posted.

Today you have your new lock file.
 
Scott

Scott,

It was posted by Dynon on Christmas Day while Van's was closed and then Dynon went on vacation. Your office was aware of it two days after Christmas because I discussed it with them. We agreed that it would difficult to do anything until Dynon returned to work. They have returned to work and apparently made their "official" call yesterday. Today we have the release. I think one of the concerns with this "lock business" was that the D-180 "unlocks" may now take a backseat to Skyview as alluded to by Robert on this forum just two days ago. Thankfully, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Pete
 
Peterk said:
Scott,

It was posted by Dynon on Christmas Day while Van's was closed and then Dynon went on vacation. Your office was aware of it two days after Christmas because I discussed it with them. We agreed that it would difficult to do anything until Dynon returned to work. They have returned to work and apparently made their "official" call yesterday. Today we have the release. I think one of the concerns with this "lock business" was that the D-180 "unlocks" may now take a backseat to Skyview as alluded to by Robert on this forum just two days ago. Thankfully, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Pete
Click to expand...

One person in the office knowing, does not automatically mean everyone in the building does, especially during the holidays when a lot of people were on vacation (my self included). Regardless, everyone can now get the new lock file (consider it a slightly late Christmas present) ;).
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It had absolutely nothing to do with me, but here is a few facts (as I know them anyway) for everyone to ponder.

The release date Dynon published for the update was December 15. I do not know what date they actually posted it on their web site.

The information I have is that no one at Van's new it had been posted.
I was told that Dynon contacted Van's Engineering yesterday to let them know that the new release was posted.

Today you have your new lock file.
Click to expand...

No matter!! You are DaMan. Thank you for supporting the RV-12 guys!!
 
Van's produced that lock file pretty quickly considering the Holidays. Good job!

Dynon has given me excellent service when I've contacted them. They answered me today and said they were still planning to work on the NAV source lost alarm issue. I don't have the whole story but it has to do with the GPS serial data not being to standard or something like that. Dynon believes they can mitigate the trouble perhaps in software. I consider it minor, but since it is the only shortcoming I have at the moment in the whole plane It is on my list of things to do - Maybe the next version will have a fix for that. I like my D-180 and it does a lot of really neat stuff.

This latest version doesn't immediatly offer anything I need, so I will not upgrade until I have a need to, BUT it may be very useful in the future for us with the newly offered Kavlico sensor support. Dynon's website shows a Kavlico oil pressure sensor, and a fuel pressure sensor that look like devices we could use to replace our existing sensors when they fail. We should learn more about these as alternatives. The oil pressure sensor is considerably less $ than a Honeywell. The fuel pressure sensor may work better than the old one. Have any of you checked this out?
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
One person in the office knowing, does not automatically mean everyone in the building does, especially during the holidays when a lot of people were on vacation (my self included). Regardless, everyone can now get the new lock file (consider it a slightly late Christmas present) ;).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Scott. It helps us to see the "big picture", and it is greatly appreciated by all. :D
 
Reminder of what settings are lost with upgrade?

Can someone remind me what all gets lost in terms of personalized settings when doing the firmware upgrade? The last update to the firmware was released prior to my first flight and hence, I have not had to update my Dynon since that time. I did have to send mine in for service but they were able to save all of my settings.

I know the checklists likely have to be reinstalled but what about autopilot settings, etc.?

Thanks

Jeff
 
jte65 said:
Can someone remind me what all gets lost in terms of personalized settings when doing the firmware upgrade? The last update to the firmware was released prior to my first flight and hence, I have not had to update my Dynon since that time. I did have to send mine in for service but they were able to save all of my settings.

I know the checklists likely have to be reinstalled but what about autopilot settings, etc.?

Thanks

Jeff
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When I received my D-180 from Dynon after factory service and an upgrade I had to also reset the following parameters in the D-180.

MAGINT and MAGVAR (Then had to do a compass calibration).
Hobbs Time
Local Time
Checklists (I had customized each of the checklists).
K-Factor (for fuel flow)
ALTADJ

Do not have the autopilot.
 
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