frankh

Well Known Member
Any of you good people using the 25" of CU foil in the wingtip as the NAV antenna?

Any problems with getting it to work?

Reason I ask is...2 days after my GNS 430 shows up I had to send it back because garmin found some bad components.

Anyway, Archer wingtip comm antenna worked great in the hangar but I could not pick up anything from the VOR transmitter on the field even if I pulled the airplane out the hangar.

The weather sucks so flight test was not viable prior to pulling the 430 out.

So..Should I expect to hear the ident even with a horizontal foil antenna with the VOR about a mile away behind a few steel hangars etc?

I'm trying not to put off the CFI for another week if the antenna is a dud.

Thanks

Frank
 
Its a compromise

ANY internal antenna is a compromise.

Internal wing tip NAV antennas seem to work fair, since they just have to receive. The performance of the ground station is the key. In the terminal area, it works adequately as reported by several users, but with some directional aspect when the wing tip antenna is blocked by the airframe. Enroute, at max distance or edge of VOR service volumn you may have some issues. For LOC and G/S it should be OK.

Internal VHF com antennas are poor any way you cut it. That is the common consensus. When people report it works, that may be talking to tower less than10 away.

The foil antenna in the wind screen seems to work OK for Com in terminal areas, with station in front of air craft. Over all performance is poor.

My advice to anyone is seriously consider using external antennas.

A Com antenna at top speed is about 0.25-0.30 mph drag.

A Nav whiskers at top speed are good for about 0.50 mph drag

Transponder at top speed, nominal 0.125 mph drag

** All three less than or about 1 mph. For 1 mph you get max performance from your radios. To me the Com is a safety item. Good clear communication should not be compromised. The Nav is less critical with GPS now a days. However for approach, LOC and G/S should be strong with no compromise.

Speaking of GPS antennas, they're small and look up, horizon and above, so the antenna can usually be placed under the canopy or cowl.

I put the Com antenna and Transponder on the belly fwd of the main spar. This give short coax runs. I like the Nav whiskers belly mounted under the horizontal stabilizer. The coax run is longer but not longer than runs out to the wing tip.

Good Luck


** When I "raced" my RV-4 I took the Vor and Com antennas off and used a hand held or internal Com antenna. Nav was from GPS. I could remove both antennas in about 5 minutes.
 
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Nav Whiskers?

I'm with George.
Am ordering my external COM and XPDR antennae now. What did you use for NAV, George?
Thanks,
John
 
Van's Foil Antenna for sale......

I ordered the Van's foil Nav and Comm antennas back when I was buying parts, but after looking at them, and not being particularly impressed with how the cable would be attached, I installed archer antennas in each wing tip - one for Comm 2, and the other for VHF Nav. George is absolutely correct if you want/need maximum performance - you should go external. Since I have 3 GPS's, my VHF nav is primarily for ILS/Loc use, and the #2 Comm is for short range use, so I'm happy with what I have.

But the foils are still in a box somewhere!

Paul
 
External for primaries?

Paul, does that mean that you are using externals for COM1 and XPDR?
Thanx
John
 
Ironflight said:
I ordered the Van's foil Nav and Comm antennas back when I was buying parts, but after looking at them, and not being particularly impressed with how the cable would be attached,

Yup, I bought the foil nav antenna and was a bit underwhelmed with the attachment method as well; soldering the center wire of the coax to the foil. I went ahead and gave it a shot, soldered it, two layers of heatshrink, then a layer or two of glass to hold it in place. Haven't flown it yet, just taxied around Hooks airport; shows good reception of the localizer signal but can't hear the ID code.

So, I'll try it and fly it. We'll see how it works, but there might an Archer antenna in my future...

John Bixby
RV-8
Houston
 
Interesting

I used a ring terminal and a C/S #6 screw thru the bottom of my painted wingtip...How could I?...Because I havent used a VOR in 8 years I kinda "forgot" to see if the needle was centering up with the radial change.

Actually my CFI suggested I should have done that...right after I sent my GNS 430 back to Garmin to replace the flaky components...Nice..:)

Frank
 
Whiskers by .... comant or

lucky333 said:
I'm with George.
Am ordering my external COM and XPDR antennae now. What did you use for NAV, George?
Thanks,
John
Nothing on my -7, going GPS, potable & little antenna under glass (canopy). My RV-4's antenna, fiberglass whiskers, two hole mount. Forgot, but think it was a COMANT CI 159C. The white blended nicely with the white plane, but stainless steel works fine. The mount was just a black "hockey puck". It just went flat under the tail. Three holes, two mounting screws w/ nut plates and one in the middle for the coax connector. I could have made a little fiberglass canoe fairing but I just left it, less is more. Any brand will work, stainless or fiberglass. Some have 2 or 4 screw mounts. Two mount holes is easier than 4 and that was what I had. The fiberglass is suppose to perform better?

As I said when I raced so to speak, I took the VOR antenna off to "go fast" (wow a whole 1/2 mph). Two screws, 1 minutes; Pull the coax out - disconnect from antenna - attach a little safety wire to it, 1 minute; Stuff coax/connector back in - tape over the hole and exposed safety wire, 1 minute. To put it on was just reverse and required just screw driver.

I had it connected to a King KX-155 with VOR/LOC/GS and it worked. What can I say it was a VOR. Even the best VOR installation has limitations. I did fly IFR with it as my sole NAV source. It just worked as you expected. Enroute the performance seemed acceptable and gnd VOT/VOR test always where received. On tail draggers I don't like the VOR on top of the Vert Stab because of eye hazard. Model-A, the top of the Vert would work as well or even better? The disadvantage is more coax run and harder to remove.

A 1/2 mile per hour drag penalty is worth it for good VOR NAV performance, especially if IMC/IFR and it's your sole nav. IMC near the COP (change over point) an an airway w/ needles dancing, ambiguity pointer flopping, is not fun. I flew IFR in some rough freight planes before GPS or LORAN. Weak VOR receivers for what ever the reason "concerned" me. I didn't like the feeling or ever want to repeat it. Thanks to GPS its not such a pucker factor if the VOR needles flop around.

If I where to equip my RV IFR again, I'd go IFR-Lite and still rely (officially) on ground base Nav. IFR approved GPS's and their nav data base revisions are expensive. An "all-in-one" VOR/LOC/GPS receiver and a few paper enroute charts and approach plates, updated as needed, can get you into the system. Of course IFR GPS's are awesome, but for IFR Lite, IMC departures to VFR, enroute let downs through an undercast to VFR and high Min approaches, a VOR still is a handy and a cheap way to get some IFR capability. I flew a Piper IFR with a single VOR/LOC and MB. It worked for the places I needed to go. However if that one nav/com puked, it wouldn't have been pretty, so I picked my days to fly IMC. I suppose my hand held com/nav could have saved the day? Never had to try it but my test in the plane showed it was marginal. May be I could get a GCA or PAR approach using the portable handheld. The handhelds VOR radial read out was unusable with the rubber ducky antenna, drifting all over the place. The brand of radio, STS is defunct, but I still have it. The Com works fine, but if you plan to use any handheld radio for real backup COM, have a way to connect it to the external antenna and a headset.


click me watch me grow
 
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Best uses for foil antenna

It makes a great FM antenna. You can glue it inside your gear leg fairing if you don't want to look at it all the time.

But you really don't even need to buy the foil antenna. A length of coax with the ground shield stripped off works just as good. The length is important. It needs to be the same as an external whip -- seems like it was 22", but check. You can do the same for a COM antenna, but I woudn't use it as your primary. It's makes a good antenna for your backup handheld, though.
 
Dumb question

So we (CFI and me) tested the Vans wingtip foil antenna today and it sorta works OK. The only problem with it is the sheilding by the airframe when the VOR is on the opposite side of the airplane.

CFI seems to think it works well enough but it could be better.

Being eternally cheap (and reluctant to drill holes in my new airplane) I had a brainwave...If the foil antenna works in the wingtip, will it not work better if the 24" strip of metal was to run down the middle of the canopy?

That way the coax could maybe be run under the tip up canopy rail, up behind the arch and thru the top to access the antenna.

The only issue is I have a Koger sunshade which might add some shielding...Unless of course the sunshade center bar could be made to the correct length to be the antenna itself.

Any thoughts?

Frank
 
frank

do you have pictures of the foil antenna? i have an external one on my rv-4 and would like to get it off. is there any other wing tip antenna's around?

danny
rv-4
n2275s
 
No pics

But all it is is a 1/2" wide strip of sticky back copper foil...I think Paul Dye still has his never fitted.

I connected the coax by passing a C/S screw thru the bottom of the wingtip, thru the antenna and into a ring terminal crimped the coax.

As I said, yes it works just about OK for my IFR training but its not that great.

Ken Paser has a design for a "rabbit ears" design for inside his canopy...But to my mind if a 24" copper strip works in the wingtip...why won't it work better in the canopy?

Frank
 
frankh said:
...

Ken Paser has a design for a "rabbit ears" design for inside his canopy...But to my mind if a 24" copper strip works in the wingtip...why won't it work better in the canopy?

Frank


Frank,
I am not an antenna expert. However, I believe the main reason the wingtip antennas (antennae??) do not work well is that they are horizontally polarized and the ground stations with which they are trying to communicate are vertically polarized. The cross-polarization is the problem. If you move the antenna to the canopy, it will still be horizontally polarized (unless you are in a very steep climb :D ).
 
Polaraization....

apatti said:
Frank,
I am not an antenna expert. However, I believe the main reason the wingtip antennas (antennae??) do not work well is that they are horizontally polarized and the ground stations with which they are trying to communicate are vertically polarized. The cross-polarization is the problem. If you move the antenna to the canopy, it will still be horizontally polarized (unless you are in a very steep climb :D ).

I'm not an antenna expert either (the ones I know are odd people, sitting around campfires, throwing magic dust into the fire and chanting weird incantations... :rolleyes: ), but it is about the polarization. VHF Nav signals are horizontally polaraized, so a Nav antenaa oriented horizontally in a wingtip works passably well (although, as mentioned, is subject to blockage for signals from the other side), but Comm signals are generally vertically polaraized, so the antenna needs to be fairly vertical, and that is hard to do in the wingtip, since it isn't that tall. My wingtip antennas are "home-made" Archer copies, and the comm one is mounted diagonally from the bottom/root end (of the wingtip) to the top surface of the wingtip, to get some small vertical component. Works fine for formation, traffic patterns, AWOS/ATIS up to about 40 miles, and Approach Control/Towers.

Paul
 
Foil wingtip NAV is marginal

OK so I have come to the conclusion that the Van's wingtip Nav is very marginal and 0.5 mph speed reduction is a small price to pay to know that your ILS identifier will come in when you need it.

Looking at George's install with the cat whiskers under the tail...I like that as I can make a hole on the underside which is easily concealed if ever I go back to the wingtip deal.

The problem is the nose dragger would put the cat whiskers up high where it would be relatively easy to damage.

I note that Van's sell a Rami bent whip antenna for VOR as well as the cat whiskers.

Anybody used one of those and happen to know if they work well??

Thanks

Frank
 
A thought on using handheld NAV/COM as backup...

"...I suppose my hand held com/nav could have saved the day? Never had to try it but my test in the plane showed it was marginal. May be I could get a GCA or PAR approach using the portable handheld. The handhelds VOR radial read out was unusable with the rubber ducky antenna, drifting all over the place..."

If you carry a handheld NAV/COM radio thinking it could be an emergency backup radio, then consider doing this: Wire an external antenna so that you have the option of connecting it to the handheld. Perhaps wire the antenna to a switch mounted at the control panel. In the "normal position", the antenna(s) are connected to your radio stack. In the "auxiliary" position an antenna is connected to a BNC terminal at the bottom of the control panel. Now, carry along an 18 inch coax jumper cable with female BNCs at each end. To use your handheld, connect the handheld to the jumper cable, the jumper cable to the CP terminal, switch to "auxiliary" and your handheld's performance should be markedly better.

Just a thought,

John Babrick
Ham radio operator - N9CNM
still getting my workshop ready, empennage next