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ddj232

Member
In the market for a Lycoming IO-360MIB. Spoke with Vans recently and they were saying 24 months lead time....ouch... but at the speed I am building probably realistic. Talked with them today and now they are saying it's more like the end of 2026 which is like 27 months. As we all know the prices continue to escalate and I need to pull the trigger on an engine. My question to the collective: Is there any "horse trading" happening amongst the group on engine slot positions? As per Van's, if this happens its totally outside of Van's and between builders which I understand. Has there been situations where someone has an engine ordered and getting close to delivery but is not ready for it yet and swaps with someone that has an engine on order that is still months/years out but ready for it sooner? Seems like this might be somewhat of a common practice but thought I'd throw the query out there.
Appreciated,

Don Johnson
 
Are you set on getting an engine from Van's? I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and ultimately went the way of the Titan (IO-340 vs IO-320 from Van's). The lead time was less (I actually delayed the engine build because they were ready faster than I was) and the price ended up being better, with the added horsepower as the cherry on top. Maybe their lead times are just as long now, but something to look into. They have an X370 engine to fill the 360 need.
 
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Dunno if they're doing position trades right now but for some perspective, I ordered Aug 2022 and my most recent update says expect Aug 2025 delivery.
 
skelrad said:
Are you set on getting an engine from Van's? I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and ultimately went the way of the Titan (IO-340 vs IO-320 from Van's). The lead time was less (I actually delayed the engine build because they were ready faster than I was) and the price ended up being better, with the added horsepower as the cherry on top. Maybe their lead times are just as long now, but something to look into. They have an X370 engine to fill the 360 need.
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Thanks for the reply Brandon, I have a few other options from Barrett and Aero Sports for builds, both more expensive.
 
squeakersc063 said:
Dunno if they're doing position trades right now but for some perspective, I ordered Aug 2022 and my most recent update says expect Aug 2025 delivery.
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Wow, that’s 3 years….. curious what you were told for a lead time when you ordered? Which engine did you order?
Appreciate the reply, though not what I wanted to hear.
 
ddj232 said:
Wow, that’s 3 years….. curious what you were told for a lead time when you ordered? Which engine did you order?
Appreciate the reply, though not what I wanted to hear.
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I ordered an EXP-119 thunderbolt when the difference in price was about 4k from a regular one. The lead time when I ordered was 18 months so I had expected to get my engine in April of this year. Unfortunately, due to the bankruptcy they changed my price and I'm paying around 7 or 8k over what I initially was invoiced for. As I understand it, I'm still eligible for more price increases between now and when they manufacture it. I was not allowed to change my order into a non-thunderbolt without sacrificing my deposit.
 
skelrad said:
Are you set on getting an engine from Van's? I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and ultimately went the way of the Titan (IO-340 vs IO-320 from Van's). The lead time was less (I actually delayed the engine build because they were ready faster than I was) and the price ended up being better, with the added horsepower as the cherry on top. Maybe their lead times are just as long now, but something to look into. They have an X370 engine to fill the 360 need.
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^^^ X-2 ^^^

They also require less deposit which is fully refundable if you cancel 60 days before delivery.
 
Not exactly the same but for another data point. For the RV-12 powerplant kit (includes everything firewall forward including the prop). The agreed to price was locked in at the new, February rate when paperwork was signed. The delivery can be anywhere but is in your name. Once delivered you can then transfer to another builder. So effectively you bought it and then sold it to another builder. I would assume Lycoming purchase would be similar to align with builders. Bought another plane for unused powerplant kit to get mine flying and I now have my deposit for sale at a $2800 savings In classified and elsewhere.
 
scottmillhouse said:
Not exactly the same but for another data point. For the RV-12 powerplant kit (includes everything firewall forward including the prop). The agreed to price was locked in at the new, February rate when paperwork was signed. The delivery can be anywhere but is in your name. Once delivered you can then transfer to another builder. So effectively you bought it and then sold it to another builder. I would assume Lycoming purchase would be similar to align with builders. Bought another plane for unused powerplant kit to get mine flying and I now have my deposit for sale at a $2800 savings In classified and elsewhere.
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I don’t know what the language was on the existing powerplant kit order modification but the new orders since the plan was approved have this clause:
“Prices are subject to change without notice. Any increase in cost to a
third-party major component of a kit after the order has been placed
will result in a kit price adjustment (example: engine, propeller, etc.).”

For my finish kit, the modified order included this in the terms and conditions :
“PRICE. The estimated price of the Kit(s) as of the Order Date is $xx,xxx.xx. (the “Estimated Price”); however, due to potential increases in key components, the Estimated Price is subject to change until commencement of Kit crating and packaging for shipment (the “Crating Date”). All deposits and payments are to be in US dollars and paid in accordance with this Agreement.”

Did the powerplant kit modified orders not have these terms and conditions?
 
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Brantel said:
I don’t know what the language was on the existing powerplant kit order modification but the new orders since the plan was approved have this clause:
“Prices are subject to change without notice. Any increase in cost to a
third-party major component of a kit after the order has been placed
will result in a kit price adjustment (example: engine, propeller, etc.).”

For my finish kit, the modified order included this in the terms and conditions :
“PRICE. The estimated price of the Kit(s) as of the Order Date is $xx,xxx.xx. (the “Estimated Price”); however, due to potential increases in key components, the Estimated Price is subject to change until commencement of Kit crating and packaging for shipment (the “Crating Date”). All deposits and payments are to be in US dollars and paid in accordance with this Agreement.”

Did the powerplant kit modified orders not have these terms and conditions?
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As per the rep at Van’s yesterday and a tech support rep, once deposit has been made on an engine the price gets locked in. Of course that’s just a verbal conversation, yet to be confirmed.
 
squeakersc063 said:
I ordered an EXP-119 thunderbolt when the difference in price was about 4k from a regular one. The lead time when I ordered was 18 months so I had expected to get my engine in April of this year. Unfortunately, due to the bankruptcy they changed my price and I'm paying around 7 or 8k over what I initially was invoiced for. As I understand it, I'm still eligible for more price increases between now and when they manufacture it. I was not allowed to change my order into a non-thunderbolt without sacrificing my deposit.
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Tough love from the mothership. I have a friend that went through the same fiasco with his finish kit, cost him an additional 5k to get it. Unfortunate common theme we can only hope has come to an end.
 
ddj232 said:
As per the rep at Van’s yesterday and a tech support rep, once deposit has been made on an engine the price gets locked in. Of course that’s just a verbal conversation, yet to be confirmed.
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I was told the same when talking with Anne. I was offered to move up in the line, as Lycoming has some additional capacity. I'm not ready for the engine, and she said if I kept my current position, the price was locked in, that Lycoming does not increase the price once an order is placed. Of course we all know this flies in the face of what happened in the bankruptcy, and what the new contract states. I opted to wait, but I will not be surprised if the "locked" price changes.

If I sound negative, it's not because there could be price updates. It's that Van's is still suffering from a lack of organization, and consistent messaging regarding price. This is not hard stuff. The mixed messaging leads to confusion, and difficult situations when such statements show to be incorrect.
 
Brantel said:
I don’t know what the language was on the existing powerplant kit order modification but the new orders since the plan was approved have this clause:
“Prices are subject to change without notice. Any increase in cost to a
third-party major component of a kit after the order has been placed
will result in a kit price adjustment (example: engine, propeller, etc.).”

For my finish kit, the modified order included this in the terms and conditions :
“PRICE. The estimated price of the Kit(s) as of the Order Date is $xx,xxx.xx. (the “Estimated Price”); however, due to potential increases in key components, the Estimated Price is subject to change until commencement of Kit crating and packaging for shipment (the “Crating Date”). All deposits and payments are to be in US dollars and paid in accordance with this Agreement.”

Did the powerplant kit modified orders not have these terms and conditions?
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Just verified with Vans again yesterday that the price was locked in once I agreed to the terms of the post Chapter 11 contract with my previous over $10k deposit. That may not be the case for new orders.
 
mstrauss said:
I was told the same when talking with Anne. I was offered to move up in the line, as Lycoming has some additional capacity. I'm not ready for the engine, and she said if I kept my current position, the price was locked in, that Lycoming does not increase the price once an order is placed. Of course we all know this flies in the face of what happened in the bankruptcy, and what the new contract states. I opted to wait, but I will not be surprised if the "locked" price changes.

If I sound negative, it's not because there could be price updates. It's that Van's is still suffering from a lack of organization, and consistent messaging regarding price. This is not hard stuff. The mixed messaging leads to confusion, and difficult situations when such statements show to be incorrect.
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Was there any negative to moving up the line (other than engine sitting around unused in your shop)? Would it be a new, higher price?
 
scottmillhouse said:
Just verified with Vans again yesterday that the price was locked in once I agreed to the terms of the post Chapter 11 contract with my previous over $10k deposit. That may not be the case for new orders.
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What do the terms and conditions state? That is all that matters. Hopefully for you and others in the same boat, those clauses are not there. When the contracts say one thing and Vans is sending out mixed messages, it leads to unnecessary confusion.
 
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ddj232 said:
As per the rep at Van’s yesterday and a tech support rep, once deposit has been made on an engine the price gets locked in. Of course that’s just a verbal conversation, yet to be confirmed.
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What matters is the terms and conditions on the order form. Those may be different depending on if we are talking Lycoming or Rotax. The current order form on the website for Lycoming does not agree with what you were told. When the contracts say one thing and Vans is sending out mixed messages, it leads to unnecessary confusion.
 
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mstrauss said:
I was told the same when talking with Anne. I was offered to move up in the line, as Lycoming has some additional capacity. I'm not ready for the engine, and she said if I kept my current position, the price was locked in, that Lycoming does not increase the price once an order is placed. Of course we all know this flies in the face of what happened in the bankruptcy, and what the new contract states. I opted to wait, but I will not be surprised if the "locked" price changes.

If I sound negative, it's not because there could be price updates. It's that Van's is still suffering from a lack of organization, and consistent messaging regarding price. This is not hard stuff. The mixed messaging leads to confusion, and difficult situations when such statements show to be incorrect.
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Amen!
 
Brantel said:
What do the terms and conditions state? That is all that matters. Hopefully for you and others in the same boat, those clauses are not there. When the contracts say one thing and Vans is sending out mixed messages, it leads to unnecessary confusion.
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Had to look it up- similar wording "potential increase in key component.... subject to change". Sorry I'm a half full sort of guy and Vans has been trustworthy to me for over 25 years on 5 builds. They have never raised prices on anything for those builds (except Chapter 11 adjustment increases). If they say it is locked in for multiple inquires, I believe them. If engine cost to them goes up significantly that is outside their control, I would expect an increase.
 
scottmillhouse said:
Had to look it up- similar wording "potential increase in key component.... subject to change". Sorry I'm a half full sort of guy and Vans has been trustworthy to me for over 25 years on 5 builds. They have never raised prices on anything for those builds (except Chapter 11 adjustment increases). If they say it is locked in for multiple inquires, I believe them. If engine cost to them goes up significantly that is outside their control, I would expect an increase.
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It’s not the Vans we knew and loved for all this years anymore. While I am somewhere in between, still too much nonsense going on with them for me to be where you are with it. I do sincerely hope you are correct!

That’s OK though, I still believe in a world where folks can have different opinions and still be able to enjoy similar interests, fellowship and enjoy a cold drink together!
 
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skelrad said:
Are you set on getting an engine from Van's? I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and ultimately went the way of the Titan (IO-340 vs IO-320 from Van's). The lead time was less (I actually delayed the engine build because they were ready faster than I was) and the price ended up being better, with the added horsepower as the cherry on top. Maybe their lead times are just as long now, but something to look into. They have an X370 engine to fill the 360 need.
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Where did you go?

I’m a -14 builder so need a -390 and aerosport told me they can’t build a 390 as they can’t buy the parts, and both lycon and Barrett both have not responded to my online request for quotes. Perhaps they don’t want to deal with someone overseas.
 
TASEsq said:
Where did you go?

I’m a -14 builder so need a -390 and aerosport told me they can’t build a 390 as they can’t buy the parts, and both lycon and Barrett both have not responded to my online request for quotes. Perhaps they don’t want to deal with someone overseas.
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I bought directly from Titan (Continental). I think they only do the 340 and 370 though.
 
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