W

wjnmd

Well Known Member
I realize I may be the lone voice in the wilderness but I want to express my opinion about the Van's Airforce T-shirt. The gentleman who did the drawing is a talented artist I'm sure but the scantily clad woman on the t-shirt is not the image I would want as a symbol of the organization of RV builders of which I consider myself a member. I have been coming to Oshkosh since my wife and I were in high school. She came with my family as part of our family vacation. Our first trip was in 1973 so you can see we have a long affiliation with the EAA. The overwhelming feeling when coming to Oshkosh was that it was a family event. As I walked around Oshkosh with my wife and son this year these t-shirts were a recurring source of embarassment. Nose art on the WWII vintage aircraft which this is supposed to mimic did not show a woman in a vulgar pose ala MTV.I find it to be offensive and not representative of the organization I enjoy so much. I expect to read replies about being a prude or "holier-than-thou" but I feel that perhaps there are others who feel the same and don't want to rock the boat. Let the flame-wars commence.

Bill Near
 
You're not crazy. I didn't buy one for that reason more or less. Not anything as profound as being representative of the organization, but for purely personal reasons. Doug has said he'll have a new design next year, so you probably need not worry too much. I bet it's something entirely different.
 
You weren't forced to buy the shirt to be a member of this board, were you? Last time I checked, folks had a choice of what clothing they wear. The shirt is not not poor taste, in my opinion. It's cool to disagree, though.
 
Bill let me be the first to agree. I am certainly not the type that has an issue with telling other people how to live their lives, but I must say I really don't see how this shirt has anything to do with our chosen hobby. I have not purchased the shirt for this reason. I don't know if we are the only ones that feel this way but I certainly wish we had another choice. Respectfully to others opinions. Bob Collins
 
I agree. I have two of the VAF (home wing) shirts and I like those a lot - those were the ones which had an RV profile on them and always drew questions about it. My wife doesn't get nose art (the nekkid woman kind, anyway), and I would not want to explain to my two sons (3 & 7) why I had a shirt with a scantily clad woman on it.
 
prporter said:
I liked the shirt so much, I bought seven of them for my friends!
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Obviously you weren't the only one. Doug held a vote and majority ruled. No problem with that. Surely you can respect the guy's opinion without such a mocking reply.
 
No disrespect intended. Sorry you chose to take it that way. I thought it was a beautiful shirt, as did my grateful friends who now own one.
 
wjnmd said:
I realize I may be the lone voice in the wilderness....

Bill Near
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Bill,
You're not alone. I agree with your post completely.

If I remember correctly, there was a vote to choose the design of the T-shirt.
The majority of those who voted apparently wanted that design on the shirts.

I like the design also! But, I wouldn't want it on my shirt.

Looking forward to the next run of shirts!
Mark
 
"Nose art on the WWII vintage aircraft which this is supposed to mimic did not show a woman in a vulgar pose".........come on :rolleyes:

I don't think you have looked at much nose art. In any case "vulgar" dosen't apply to any of it. I know I should just let this go, but gee wizzzzzz. I think it is all very cool and flattering to hot chicks :D ........I'm such a bad person. I'll have to work at purging those thought :p
 
Bill,
I agree with you as well. You are not the lone voice in the wilderness. As much as I want to support this forum and what it stands for I could not bring myself to buy a shirt because of my values as a Christian. I'm hoping the shirts next year have more in the way of airplanes and less in the way of sexy women.

:) Proud to be a prude...
 
They were giving them away at the OSH banquet--- wasn't Ken Scott was saying, "I couldn't bring one of these into my house....."

(Since YOU brought it(her) up-- is she wearing panties?) :eek:
 
Different spin

Bill,

I agree with you, but for a different reason. I didn't buy one because of the "Surf & Fly" statement. I don't have any idea where that came from. It seems so random. How many of us surf? How many of us use our planes to fly to places to surf? I can't get over it in my mind. Might as well say "ski and fly" or "rock climb and fly". In my mind that statement, "Surf & Fly" is no more applicable to RV's than any other type of airplane or type of hobby. If I'd never heard about RV's or VansAirforce and I saw that t-shirt, I'd probably think it was some kind of airport sports bar or something, maybe a seafood joint.

Disclaimer: I never said anything before because we all have a right to buy or not to buy. Some chose to buy, others like Bill and I chose not to. Hope I didn't offend anyone.
 
I agree with Tobin, it doesn't reflect my interest with respect to building and flying RVs. Since I don't surf it doesn't have any relevance to my lifestyle. I don't have anything against the picture of the woman and in fact find it easy to look at, but again no relevance to RVs for me and I felt I'd be answering more questions about the picture than about building an experimental aircraft. For those reasons I too did not get one. I do respect the rights of all the others who have bought and worn them. Fun to see where they've been.
I just returned from a trip to Hawaii and found the picture of the woman being used as part of the logo for a Mexican Restaraunt called Hula La's.
To each their own.
 
Artwork

I find the artwork on the shirt very nice. However I too don't understand the relationship "surf and fly".

I haven't bought a shirt yet. I did however ask my wife if she would be offended by it. The fact that I thought my wife might be offended by it tells me there might be better choices to represent VAF.

Don't get me wrong, I think the shirts look great. I just don't see the link to building and flying RV's.

BTW. I don't have any shirts with Bud, Miller or Corona on them either. I lead a boring life. Family, work and building RV's.

Paul
 
Surf and Fly....

Surf the web guys... surf the web and fly!

And I don't have a problem with the shirt, but I wouldn't buy one either. My parents would kick my *** out. And I need to live at home 'till I finish school.
 
Choices

"Surf and Fly" = Surf the web (vansairforce.net) and Fly (your RV). The VAF beach girl is a pictorial pun as well as a representation of flying history.

Apparently some folks haven't seen a lot of authentic WW2 nose art. Many of the "models" had less on than our VAF girl. (See for example, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/nose_art.html) The VAF girl is a very close likeness of a picture I once saw of actual nose art. I'll see if I can dig up the reference later.

This shirt is a far cry from "vulgar" in my view. I proudly wear the VAF shirt. Not only as a symbol of the great hobby that associates us all, but as a tribute to the time when real men flew their magnificent machines though 50 missions of "heck". They did this so that you could live freely in a country where, among other things, you have the right to disagree with their (and my) artistic taste. I hope you at least appreciate what they did for the cause of this freedom; even if you don't approve of the manner in which they did it. I for one, am greatful to them for their service and the traditions (including noseart) that they left behind.

Thanks for the great site and the great shirt Doug!
 
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robjohnson said:
You weren't forced to buy the shirt to be a member of this board, were you? Last time I checked, folks had a choice of what clothing they wear. The shirt is not not poor taste, in my opinion. It's cool to disagree, though.
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This is a line of argument frequently heard: "If you don't like xyz, then don't use it, have one, smoke it, or whatever." This argument supposes that each of us is radically autonomous and live isolated lives, but of course we live in community with each other and share the same public spaces. So we have to see other people wearing these T-shirts, as do our children, spouses, and friends. Taste is subjective, but good manners suggests we not make our fellow citizens uneasy with our choices. BTW, I see nothing tasteless in the nose art from the WW2 era. These airplanes were flown by virile young men in a milieu of death and destruction. The nose art reminded them of what they were fighting for, no doubt. If I wore one of those T-shirts people might think I was another old geezer who thinks he's younger than he really is.
 
RE: The shirt

Wow,

You sleep for a few hours and miss out on all the hot discussions <g>.

I'll just put in a bullet point or two to fill in some spots:

- the T-shirt graphic was a member-submitted design that won the most votes in a forum poll a couple of years back. It's a one-run production that was intended to be a quasi-collector's item. I'd like to see one in 25yrs at a fly-in when I'm flying my RV-33. Much like why I smile when I see a '78 Van Halen concert shirt...it reminds me of fun music and old friends. Same intention... The orginal on which it was based was drawn in the '50s by the very talented (late) Al Moore.

- 'SURF', as others stated, refers to the practice of 'surfing the web' and the statement ties into two of the activites viewers of the site partake in....surfing the web (a lot) and flying their RVs.

- Like many others I would imagine, I'm amazed at how little clothing some wear on prime-time, non-cable TV - be they cheerleaders on tonight's Monday Night Football, singers on American Idol or Rock Star Supernova, Fear Factor or actresses on Desperate Housewives. I guess what makes me giggle a little are the feelings generated by a drawing of the exact outfit worn on 'The Brady Bunch' in that episode where they went to Hawaii <g>. I don't wear it to Mass, but I do occasionally wear it while out flying with the guys - bad boy image and all that... I'm 41, I could use a little bad boy help ;^).

While I have your attention, you can buy one for $16 through the end of LOE'06 (shipping included in USA) from www.AveryTools.com. (800.OK.AVERY). There are only a few dozen left and when they're gone, they're gone. Show it to me in 25 yrs and I'll buy your lunch and a beer. I have a spare that I don't wear - intend to frame it in a decade or so and hang it on my office wall (the 'first shirt').

:D :D :D​
"I'm a 41 yr old male wearing a pink shirt with
a girl in a hula outfit and a website URL on the back. ​
FEAR ME."​
:D :D :D​

I've enjoyed writing this....I'm going to go see if I can find Van Halen 1 and put it on...

Have a great week everyone,
dr

fmi:
Al Moore's Artwork (the guy who did the original 'Hawaian Girl'): http://www.americanartarchives.com/moore,a.htm
Brady Bunch (Hawaii episode): http://www.davidbrady.com/eb/buncheps4.html#bunch72
Van Halen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Halen


Typo note:
Earlier I posted the amount $12 for the shirts. That's for the caps!!!! (my mistake). Usually the shirts sell for $20 but they are $16 through the end of LOE'06.
 
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When I first saw the shirt, I KNEW I had to have one! I love WWII nose art, and the art on this shirt just screams WWII bomber! I didn't look at it, and think "My gosh, that will offend everyone." I thought, "Sweet, what a nostalgic twist on a modern hobby!" I'm sure there are those that I don't hear from making negative comments about the shirt when I wear it, but I get comments like 'Cool, where can I get one?' or 'Love the nose art!' I have yet to hear from someone that doesn't like it, or even see someone looking at me funny.

I TOTALLY respect the opinions of those here that don't care for it. I don't understand the comments about it being vulger though. I remember that episode of the Brady Bunch...it is the same outfit...

I wear mine proudly, probably too much! It's getting that 'worn' look... :D
 
DeltaRomeo said:
- 'SURF', as others stated, refers to the practice of 'surfing the web' and the statement ties into two of the activites viewers of the site partake in....surfing the web (a lot) and flying their RVs.
Click to expand...

Now that you 'splain it like that, I see where you're coming from. But in my case, I gotta agree with the previous posters who thought it referenced surfing, as in at the beach. I mean, half nekkid woman, flowers/lei/grass skirt, "surf"... made me think of actual surfing, which struck me as a bit odd. As stated before, how many RV guys actually surf? Probably not too many...

As for surfing the internet? You betcha, I waste way too much time on here!

John
 
That did it...I finally got around to ordering mine. Can I wear it in the hanger, Vern? (Private local joke).

Mark
 
As a big fan of historic and modern nose art - I absolutely loved the T-shirt. I am planning nose art for my airplane (after I choose and build... he he). All with concurrence of my conservative (when it comes to Nekedness and porn) little wife. I didn't buy one because I personally didn't really like the faded-looking, pink shop-rag shirt it came on. I may buy one now, and cut it out, and have it stretched and framed!

If you ever do a second run of these shirts - do them in a dark grey - and I'll take 8 or 10!! :D
 
I thought it was cool.. It brought to mind mama is on the beach hanging around waiting hours for her man to come back ( meanwhile watching the surf ) and dad's been up in the wild blue having fun for hours!!!
 
In respose to Doug's post...

Wow, well said Doug. I agree completely. As others have said, this is somewhat of a tribute to our WWII heroes. They didn't paint their noses with these women out of disrespect, they did it because they worshiped women and that's what kept them going during such hard times. By creating an image representative of this nose art using tasteful, Brady-Bunch-level clothing is a wonderful thing. Being offended by it puzzles me.

I think that it is time that I ordered my T-shirt. Thanks for the idea Bill.
 
T's

Well, I wear my VAF hat with pride (it's my favorite) and I do appriciate most
WWII nose art but like Doug said, "I wouldn't ware it to mass" (church/sunday school).
In that vane Doug, any plans on a 2007 spring collection of VAF Tee's. By the way Doug, nice seguay in to the sales pitch earlier! See the marketing degree is payin' off. :p
 
Why I like it.....

My brother designed it. He submitted the artwork and design for the contest, won the $100 from Doug, and the rest is history. He also designed the VAF logo that now adourns all these pages, coffee mugs, etc. (note: the one that resembles Van Halen's logo).

My brother gave proper credit to the fella that did the original drawing of the hula girl, Doug obtained reprinting rights, etc.

I like it and I own one, not just because my brother designed it. To each their own.

I also liked the comment that I believe Doug made about TV.....if this shirt offends someone, I assume those folks no longer watch television? Geez, this shirt is WAAAY more proper than half the attire on television these days!!Just my opinion.
 
robjohnson said:
You weren't forced to buy the shirt to be a member of this board, were you? Last time I checked, folks had a choice of what clothing they wear. The shirt is not not poor taste, in my opinion. It's cool to disagree, though.
Click to expand...

He didn't say anything about buying or wearing the shirt. He mentioned the shirt being worn by others at the "family" event.

I personally did not purchase the T shirt because I also felt it was in poor taste. It is simply not something I want to personally display on my back. Just my opinion.

Lance
 
shirt

I like the shirt so much that I just ordered another one. Unfortunately they are out of large ones. Does anyone have a large that their wife won't let them wear :eek: If so, I might be interested in buying it.
 
Trivia - why we "surf"

DeltaRomeo said:
- 'SURF', as others stated, refers to the practice of 'surfing the web' and the statement ties into two of the activites viewers of the site partake in....surfing the web (a lot) and flying their RVs.
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Trivia Test..... why do we "Surf" the net?

The term is based on the name of the person who is sometimes called the "founding father of the internet" (no - it's not Al Gore).

He is Vinton Cerf and he developed TCP/IP as part of the Arpanet and later DARPA networks - for those of us old farts who were early users at work....

Hence we now "surf" the net..... :)

Interesting info here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinton_Cerf

Now you are all set for your next pub quiz night..... :)

gil in Tucson
 
get out much ?

you've got to be kidding, yes its a scantily clad women but no different than any at the beach, lake, swimming pool,now or 1971, tennis court, cheerleaders, hooters :D clever name (cant go there even if the crab legs were all you can eat for 9.99)goes on forever.,looks like you may want to stick to winter vacations :(

i got two by the way, i did think it was a bit much and would have chosen a more aircraft style shirt but the selection was this or none. i give it a pg 13
 
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If Vans Air Force turns into a "pro Christian theme group" then I quit.

Maybe I got into flying RV's for all the wrong reasons:

1. it's fun
2. girls dig RV pilots
3. beer tastes better after any RV flight
4. it's fun


Call me crazy.

Bob "a former surfer"
 
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A300Driver said:
If Vans Air Force turns into a "pro Christian theme group" then I quit.

Maybe I got into flying RV's for all the wrong reasons:

1. it's fun
2. girls dig RV pilots
3. beer tastes better after any RV flight
4. it's fun


Call me crazy.

Bob "a former surfer"
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What he said...and I still do surf! (9'6" long board)

The shirt has also gotten rave reviews at the beach here in So. Cal. though the wife did a double take the first time I put it on, but once she got a good look at it she really likes the design.
 
Website is incorrect

briand said:
Whats this? Looks like a large.

https://www.cart.averytools.com/p-704-vans-airforcenet-teeshirt-large.aspx

Pinks not my color
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Actually, I called this morning and they said that they are out of Larges. But, they said that the shirts run on the big side and the mediums are more like larges anyway. Since I'm not a huge guy to begin with, I bought one. I'll let you know how it fits and if I offend anyone by having a pretty lady on my shirt.
 
Looking good

And to think I walked around Yellowstone getting my picture taken in every spot imaginable all the while my wife was giving me a hard time (your going to wear a pink shirt?). What was I thinking? Guess i shouldn't wear my Autolite Spark Plug t-shirt either (at least it is beige).

Just another old guy(s rule) trying to look cool.
 
Boy could I have a field day with this one, BUT...

I'm going to LOE and I want to have fun with Doug, but what Bob said is close for me. Like I've always said, the TV has a power switch. If you don't like the program , change the channel or turn it off.

A300Driver said:
If Vans Air Force turns into a "pro Christian theme group" then I quit.

Maybe I got into flying RV's for all the wrong reasons:

1. it's fun
2. girls dig RV pilots
3. beer tastes better after any RV flight
4. it's fun


Call me crazy.

Bob "a former surfer"
Click to expand...
 
This thread is fun to read. People getting worked up over a girl wearing hawaiian beach attire. "Surf and Fly", I get it. Very clever.

Please carry on.

:D :)
 
Thanks to this thread, I was able to snag one of the mediums available at Avery. I always liked the shirt but never bought it because figured it would be around for a while. To top it off, Sandra from Avery emailed me back telling me it was only $16, with free shipping. Can't beat it.
 
hmmm

in a society where you are free from everything, you cant do anything. some want to be free from it while others want to be free to do it. :confused: at least it's not like second hand smoke, you wont get cancer from it.
 
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Doug, you inspired me with your collectors 'speech'. I ordered one ;). I just won't wear it 'till I move out.
 
That does it, I'm buyin' one...

This thread has been fun to read, thanx for the am entertainment. I have so many aviation Tee's around, I was going to pass... but now that I read that someone has pushed the religion button in this thread.......well, I definately have to have one!

Thanks to the 'Family Values' guys for the motivation to buy! ;)

Sign me up for the next Nose Art edition of VAF.com (where you don't get wet 'surfing'...)

Down to the shop to wail 'Green Day' on the stereo,
Art in Asheville
 
atreff said:
This thread has been fun to read, thanx for the am entertainment. I have so many aviation Tee's around, I was going to pass... but now that I read that someone has pushed the religion button in this thread.......well, I definately have to have one!

Thanks to the 'Family Values' guys for the motivation to buy! ;)

Sign me up for the next Nose Art edition of VAF.com (where you don't get wet 'surfing'...)

Down to the shop to wail 'Green Day' on the stereo,
Art in Asheville
Click to expand...

Several references have been made to religion, family values and such....

I take exception.

I believe in our rights and you should be able to wear anything you wish. I equally defend your right to say what you wish. Freedom of speech is an important element of our democracy.

I don't believe that extends to 'bashing' others.

If you have something to say/wear/express have at it. If wearing the t-shirt represents your position then go for it.

I'm an Evangelical Christian. I LIKE the t-shirt. It doesn't offend me.

I wouldn't wear it to church and I believe God is omniscient so wearing it elsewhere would be counter-intutive. God invented sex and endorces it [or else why did He invent it?]. He didn't design it to be everywhere at all times though.

Everyone has a belief stucture/value system. I'm not 'bashing' yours and I respectfully request you do not bash mine.

I am amused tho when I read

"Thanks to the 'Family Values' guys for the motivation to buy! ;) ".

If that is the only reason you bought one then your motivation is for the wrong reason. Wear one becaue you are 'pro' something not 'anti' something. Have enough courage in your convictions to not be swayed by either those who agree with or with those whom you disagree.

I was silent until this point but another of our rights is the right to believe as each wishes. If you believe there is no God or another god or whatever fine. Don't attack us for our beliefs [just as I'd tell any Christian to not to put down someone else for their's].

IMHO, the nose art on planes in WWII was most appropriate. Would be today on military a/c. On t-shirts, now, here in the states... not so much [saw a couple having sex at Indy 500 mid-day on the hood of a car a few years ago in the parking lot - I love sex but another example of wrong thing/time/place]. And, no I don't watch TV but it isn't because of the way ppl dress - it is because there isn't anything worth the time on tv to watch! I have far more to do than time to do it [come to think of it, maybe that is why they dress as they do - there isn't much past the eye candy].

I support your desire to wear what you wish. I defend your right to believe what you choose. I applaud your use of free speech. I request you not attack me, my beliefs or my exercise of my rights simply because you don't agree.

Defend what you believe and don't attack what you dislike.

sorry this was so long but I'm fed up with being the only group in this great country that it seems to be acceptable to "dis".

Wear your shirts in good health

Pax,

John
 
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Why can't you have sex at Indy 500 mid-day on the hood of a car??? I would say it would be alot more fun than watching the race!
 
Come on now, people......back on topic please ;^)

BTW, many shirts sold Tue and Wed due to this thread. Go figure...

b,
dr
 
It fits

In my last post I mentioned that I would let everyone know how the medium fits since Avery said that the shirts ran on the big side and they are out of larges. I got mine today and it fits me just fine and I normally wear a large. It is maybe just a little smaller than the typical large. At $16 with free shipping, it is a good deal.
 
VAF shirt

Just received my shirt (and hat) yesterday.
Wife brought the box in, and my daughter took the pleasure of opening it.
It was lunchtime, so the entire family was there.
After reading this thread, I was curious what response my family would have towards the shirt's decal.
My son (17) looked at it and said "Tough guys wear pink!".. (and grinned as he walked away.
My daughter (13) said it was 'Cute'.. (not sure how I should take that :) )
My wife (45) asked "who is the beach girl on the back?".
So, I explained 'nose-art', and what it represented. (and the fly & surf reason)
After that... we (wife and daughter) googled over a couple websites that had different nose-art. (with some reference to the military planes they originated from... and their crew)
30 minutes of quality time viewing the nose-art crewmen selected as their 'flags to freedom' (as one site put it)
Afterwards, my wife asked me one question..
"And why didn't you order me a shirt too?"

Bottom line (in my opinion only)... If the nose-art was acceptable for the heros that painted it on their plane, then I'll proudly wear it, showing my respect for them. And for anyone that makes a 'sexy girl' comment around me probably doesn't understand the 'nose-art' and it's true message. I'll gladly take the time to discuss the nose-art history with them.

Hopefully, next year, the nose-art will be "Felix the cat w/ pool balls".. or, some other nose-art that is non-contraversal so we ALL can promote the true meaning of "Those that flew before us for freedom".
Safe skies guys !!!
/Ande
 
I like the shirts, but can't wear them at work :(. My (married) coworker who is quite obviously cheating on her husband with another (married) coworker might be offended... :mad: Ain't corporate America grand?!
 
Any update on the '07 VAF shirt?

I missed the boat on the 'controversial surf and fly shirt' (seeing me stuffed into one of the remaining medium shirts really WOULD be offensive, regardless of the image on the back), but I don't want to miss out on v2.

I really liked the nose-art theme, and would have proudly worn one - and the 'surf and fly' logo is clever (in my opinion). I wish I could spend 1/10th the time I spend 'surfing' in my plane instead.

I love the fleece pull-over, too, but I need anything with long sleeves to be a 'tall' for my gorilla arms.

ch
 
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