[rv8bldr]

Hey everyone

I'm building our new house this summer on our property (50 acres) and I have room for about 1300' of turf runway. The field is quite smooth (it has been both a hay field and pasture for about a century), and will be even smoother once I roll it a couple of times. In addition, I have 300'+ before any trees at either end. As you can imagine, I'd REALLY like to keep my -8 there, although that would preclude any winter flying.

My question is this: for those of you who fly off of turf, what kind of take-off distances are you seeing? Of course, that will depend on the prop, engine, and weight, so if you could tell me that too, that would be handy.

My -8 has an IO-360-A3B6D (200 hp) and a 3 blade Catto, so I am a little concerned about hot summer day take offs at gross weight. If I keep the plane at home, I'll save ~335/month in rent, so I could put a CS prop on instead and still be ahead ;-) However, if 1300' is marginal even with a CS prop, I'll have to rethink it.

 

[Tom Martin]

Mark
Take offs will not be your problem. Landings will require more attention. Yes these planes can land much shorter than 1300 feet. I do it all the time in my rocket. The problem is that conditions are not always the same and you will have to have a "go around" mindset to avoid some unpleasant situations. A friend of mine, in his cheeroke, landed a bit long once, a bit faster than normal. It had just rained and his brakes were of no use on slick grass and he ended up in my bean field off the end of the runway. There was no damage except to pride but this was on a 2000 foot strip, going up hill, where the plane and pilot had landed here many times previously.

 

[Mel]

I agree with Tom. Landings will be your bigger challenge. Here it depends mostly on your pilot technique. I fly comfortably into 1500' here in Texas with a fixed pitch prop on my -6. I have many friends with F/P and constant speed RVs that won't try it.
It's all in what you are comfortable with.

 

[allbee]

My advice is to learn stall landings, that is where you drop down to about 3 ft. off the runway and pull the stick back and wait for the drop, and then learn to drop on a spot within a short distance, take and learn this on the asphalt. Once you can drop it consistantly than you can start using it at your place. make sure you also find the spot that you stop at with consistant results. All of this might take some time, sounds like you have it. Then if you have a Sod runway at your airport like I do, than you can start taking off and landing on it, ours I believe is 2000ft. Of course you will need to be comfortable with go arounds on a wim if it doesn't go right. Make sure and practice and expect that as well. What I find useful is to lift off the ground and hold about a foot off until you get your speed up, gets you use to slow flight.

One last thing, put a sock up in the area that you plan on using for your runway, why? so you can find if you have a problem with variable winds, winds that all of a sudden go in a reverse direction, on landing if you encounter a sheer wind or a push wind it WILL make you drop out sooner, may cause you to miss your spot, and most important make your go around much more difficult, cause you to not get off in time, have a weak climb rate.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

My advice is to learn stall landings, that is where you drop down to about 3 ft. off the runway and pull the stick back and wait for the drop, and then learn to drop on a spot within a short distance, take and learn this on the asphalt. Once you can drop it consistantly than you can start using it at your place. make sure you also find the spot that you stop at with consistant results. All of this might take some time, sounds like you have it. Then if you have a Sod runway at your airport like I do, than you can start taking off and landing on it, ours I believe is 2000ft. Of course you will need to be comfortable with go arounds on a wim if it doesn't go right. Make sure and practice and expect that as well. What I find useful is to lift off the ground and hold about a foot off until you get your speed up, gets you use to slow flight.

One last thing, put a sock up in the area that you plan on using for your runway, why? so you can find if you have a problem with variable winds, winds that all of a sudden go in a reverse direction, on landing if you encounter a sheer wind or a push wind it WILL make you drop out sooner, may cause you to miss your spot, and most important make your go around much more difficult, cause you to not get off in time, have a weak climb rate.

Good advice, and I will add that an RV with pressure recovery wheel pants will not tolerate a rough-surfaced turf strip nearly as well as the typical certificated airplane. In our area we operate off several grass strips but they are much smoother and more tightly mowed than some of the farm grass strips I've seen.

At the very least a less than nice turf runway will tear up the wheel pants, at worst it will put the plane on its back. But if you have a nice strip at your home, and are proficient enough to safely land on it......you are the envy of many of us.

 

[vansrv8]

Come on now Mark...all you need is a bungee and a tailhook

 

[rv8bldr]

Thanks for all the advice guys (except for you Ken ). I guess some 3 point practice is in order.

 

[Griff]

Turf Strip

I have an RV-8 that lives on a turf strip that is 1900 feet long . I'm in the Pacific Northwest, and we have mature fir trees at one end. My 8 has an 0-360 in it with a constant speed prop, and the empty weight is 1105 lbs. With full fuel and my son and I in it, we are often at gross weight. The strip is at 270 feet MSL, and we are never Texas in July here from a temperature standpoint. We just finished our first year of flight, and in 187 hours, we have never used 1/2 of the length either coming or going. I think you will be fine with a little practice at a longer facility under your belt.

 

[pierre smith]

It will do it...

.....if the pilot can

Seriously, Mark, I have a friend in Atlanta with an 0-360 equipped RV-8 and Catto FP prop that has gone into and out of 1000' grass.

Technique is the key...you have to learn the slowest speed that you can safely approach and drag it in with power, nose high and splat (sorta) on the numbers and brake heavily. We consistently land and stop our 180HP-6A in 700 feet, with two up...using good short field techniques.

Practise at altitude with full flaps and keep slowing it down until it starts shaking (incipient stall) and find the slowest airspeed that allows a little flare, then practice on a longer runway until you get it down.

Yep, the plane is capable...is the pilot??

Regards,

 

[rv8bldr]

.....if the pilot can

Yep, the plane is capable...is the pilot??

Regards,

Sure, Pierre, ask the HARD question ;-) Answer: if the pilot isn't ready now, he will be soon. I've got 4000' of pavement to work the kinks out before trying the grass.

 

[pierre smith]

Just be careful..

...and gradually use a slower and slower airspeed with very precise airspeed control, like start at 75 MPH approach and if it flares too long, use 3-5 MPH less and see how long that flares, then 70, 68, ..you get the idea. It won't take you long to discover the min speed. You can do a "carrier" type landing, drag it in with power approach and ease the power back in the flare to avoid splatting too hard, then hold the stick all the way back and brake as hard as you can without nosing over...the -8 will pleasantly surprise you.

Stay safe,

 

[allbee]

Talk about landing with a splat, or a stall landing, whatever you want to call it, will suprise you on grass, because it won't be as hard as on the asphalt.

 

[Finley Atherton]

Hey everyone
My -8 has an IO-360-A3B6D (200 hp) and a 3 blade Catto, so I am a little concerned about hot summer day take offs at gross weight.

You mentioned "at gross weight". I suggest you consider limiting yourself to something less than gross to improve T/O and landing performance and lessen the loads on the landing gear. I operate my 9A from my marginal strip and for my local solo flights I fill to a max of half tanks. If I want to go on a longer trip I top off the tanks at the local airfield about 10 minutes away. If I want to take a passenger I meet them at the local airfield. I have done tests at half tanks plus 220 lb load from my strip with no problems so I know I can operate from the strip with a passenger if necessary. I am confident that I could operate at gross from my strip but I see no reason to go there.

Fin
9A

 

[photoadjuster]

Don't waste money rolling dirt

<< The field is quite smooth (it has been both a hay field and pasture for about a century), and will be even smoother once I roll it a couple of times. >>

We were unable to gain any smoothness when rolling a turf strip. We used several different type rollers including the type used to roll asphalt.

Best practice is to top dress it with sand or fine dirt and then drag a heavy steel beam or section of railroad rail to level it. Contact someone who does golf courses. They will own a top dresser.

Spend no money trying to roll it.

Regards,
Mike Stephenson

 

[Mel]

It depends on the type of soil,

Some soils do good with rolling and some don't.

 

[rv8bldr]

Some soils do good with rolling and some don't.

It appears to work on our soil. I mowed out couple of R/C runways last spring and they were pretty rough. I was putting the driveway in (1000'!) and after using the packer/roller on it took it out and packed/rolled the R/C runways. Huge difference, and they stayed good all summer.

 

[axlr8r]

And an AOA

Come on now Mark...all you need is a bungee and a tailhook

Mark,
Have you thought about installing an angle of attack indicator ? These are great and will help you make consistent short field landings time after time with a great deal of confidence.
The cost of the equipment and the installation time is well worth the cost considering the savings in hanger fees.
As I recall, there was a thread here recently about these units.

 

[Steve Sampson]

I fly out of 1020'

This was discussed quite a bit in a thread three years ago that I kicked off. I was interested because I fly out of 1020' which is a bit on the tight side.

My strip is usually one way. One thing which I have never seen mentioned elsewhere is this. Very late on finals compare the ground speed with the ASI. If you have an unexpected 5 knot tailwind going into a short strip you might well be in trouble. Time to push the power lever and think again.

Practice somewhere else until you know you can do it, then go to your own strip on a good day. If you read VANS spec, the -8 can do what you want.

 

[rv8bldr]

Mark,
Have you thought about installing an angle of attack indicator ? These are great and will help you make consistent short field landings time after time with a great deal of confidence.
The cost of the equipment and the installation time is well worth the cost considering the savings in hanger fees.
As I recall, there was a thread here recently about these units.

Actually I installed an AOA Sport a couple of years ago. However, I couldn't seem to get it properly calibrated with the flaps down. You have to fly a zero lift profile and hit the calibration button while doing it. I had been trying to use the G Meter on my Dynon to get exactly 0 G but it appears there is a lag in the display. By the time I hit the button I was already on the down slope and almost exceeding the max flap speed, so I never seemed to time it right.

Now, I haven't tried recalibrating the thing in over a year because it annoyed me so much. However, now that I'm more comfortable in the airplane (250 hrs), and I have a G display device ready to go (a tennis ball with string and duct tape), I'm going to do the whole recalibration thing again.

 

[Kevin Horton]

Actually I installed an AOA Sport a couple of years ago. However, I couldn't seem to get it properly calibrated with the flaps down. You have to fly a zero lift profile and hit the calibration button while doing it. I had been trying to use the G Meter on my Dynon to get exactly 0 G but it appears there is a lag in the display. By the time I hit the button I was already on the down slope and almost exceeding the max flap speed, so I never seemed to time it right.

Now, I haven't tried recalibrating the thing in over a year because it annoyed me so much. However, now that I'm more comfortable in the airplane (250 hrs), and I have a G display device ready to go (a tennis ball with string and duct tape), I'm going to do the whole recalibration thing again.

The tennis ball on a string is definietly the way to go. Much faster response, high resolution easy to see display, and no reliance on software.

As far as avoiding max flap speed - I'm not sure what flight profile you were using. If I were doing this test, I would start near VFE in level flight, then do a 2 g pull up to perhaps 30 deg nose high. Then do the zero g push from the 30 deg nose high attitude. That should allow you to hit zero g without having to push the nose too low. You can string several of these in succession in a roller coaster manoeuvre - the first few cycles would be practice, then do the calibration event once you have got the manoeuvre down cold.

 

[rv8bldr]

The tennis ball on a string is definietly the way to go. Much faster response, high resolution easy to see display, and no reliance on software.

As far as avoiding max flap speed - I'm not sure what flight profile you were using. If I were doing this test, I would start near VFE in level flight, then do a 2 g pull up to perhaps 30 deg nose high. Then do the zero g push from the 30 deg nose high attitude. That should allow you to hit zero g without having to push the nose too low. You can string several of these in succession in a roller coaster manoeuvre - the first few cycles would be practice, then do the calibration event once you have got the manoeuvre down cold.

Thanks, Kevin, good advice. The weather is supposed to be nice on Sunday so I'm going to give it a try.