newtech

newtech

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I am a 200 hour VFR pilot with the first 120 hours in Cessnas and the last 80 hours in my RV-7A. I have had my Garmin 696 configured for North up presentation but played with course/track up today. Track up was really more confusing than I thought it was going to be. Should I be working on becoming more at home with the track up presentation or go back to North up, which seems to make more sense?
 
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Track up is what the world will look like out the window. It makes finding things easy............. Track up works for me.
 
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I'm a track up guy, like Warren and Mike. It also matches the display on the job, so it keeps my brain consistent...important for my limited brainpower! :p


I have friends that like N up, and though it appears more like holding a sectional or enroute chart N up and looking at it, it just doesn't give me the same SA or orientation of what's ahead of me.

I'll often turn a sectional so my course line is straight ahead...doing so makes it readily apparent where airports, terrain and other features are with respect to my 12 o'clock. Downside with charts is that the words are not oriented correctly and you have to rotate the chart to read. However, with moving maps, the words are rotated to match track up if you are track up, so it's not an issue. You can read data, while still having the world out in front of you just as it is looking out the window. Works great for weather too. I prefer to see what's up ahead and plan deviations based on what is presented out in front of me.

N up is a great tool for big picture viewing, IMHO. It can give you a quick orientation to a familiar geo reference, like where am I on the map of the US. To me, track up is a better tool for navigating through space, and provides a more immediate sense of what is ahead, to the right and to the left.

Each mode has uses, and I'm sure many use N up and have great SA with it. Honestly, it's what works best for you (each of us) to build and maintain SA that is important.

I'd be interested in hearing from synthetic vision users...will SV systems show N up, or is it strictly track up? I would think it would be the latter, as showing a look ahead on an ADI, next to a N up view on a plan view moving map might be confusing.
 
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Track Up

It's also the way I learned with paper charts. Continually look down your track on the chart for physical features, you don't have to be able to read to tell that there is a lake, railroad or tower ahead, and then scan the gound for them.

Rally drivers' navigators use north up and don't rotate the map - I guess because for forest stages they'd be spinning it like a top :)
 
Track up almost all of the time, although it can be useful to switch to North up sometimes, like when you want to take a look at weather and consider possible deviations to your route.
 
The bain of our marriage

As a geology student, I was beaten about both side of the head when I would turn a map any way but north up. As a result, I strongly prefer north-up and become quite befuddled when I get into a plane after Paul uses it. Decades of training. I'm not sure I will ever be able to have the situational awareness solid with track up, but I'm trying to learn in Paul's plane. (I'm also convinced that track up is the reason we are frequently hearing folks announce themselves as "2 miles south of the field" and suddenly see them coming straight at you from the northeast. :eek:

That said, it is clear to me that the (mis-guided) men who established aviation protocol, set track up as the standard. As Bob said, it's what the airlines use.
 
I use both track up and north up. I have track up on about the 20 mile scale, and after that it is set for north up. I get a better picture of XM Weather in my mind's eye when I see it in relation to the world so I scale out to see weather, then scale back to see what's going on. This way I stay really confused. ;)
 
I have always been a North Up kind of guy...

...either on the water (ocean off-shore fishing) or in the air. My days as an AIC in a Navy E2-A, the 'scope was always north up. I am not a fan of Track Up, but am attempting to live with that mode as Garmin GPS units will only display the compass arc and heading bug in Track Up or Heading Up mode. They will not display the compass arc in north up mode. We'll see...
 
One of each. I'm very comfortable with my efis map on track up and my 430 on north up. When I reference myself to the world for my flight purposes (turn to nearest), my brain looks at the efis map track up. When I have to reference the rest of the world with me for external reasons, I look at the 430 for north up (position report on the radio). Works for me.
 
I'm a North-up. For some reason my brain "sees" the situation from above, as though I'm looking down on the earth with a little airplane flying across it. Since North is ALWAYS (more or less) up on the "real" earth, my brain expects it to be up on any graphic representation of the earth. If I'm flying East, then my brain automatically expects North to be off to my left, both in actuality and on any graphic representation of my spatial orientation.

To my brain, track-up tells me I'm always flying North. It just seems weird that no matter which direction I turn, or how many times I turn, the little airplane on the screen is always going North.
 
jrsites said:
I'm a North-up. For some reason my brain "sees" the situation from above, as though I'm looking down on the earth with a little airplane flying across it...
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Me too. Track up makes no sense to me at all.

So to the OP, decide what works best for you.
 
I've always used north up because it was easier for me to glance at the gps and know where I was in relation to a point on the ground.. but I recently changed my 296 to use track up and utilize the compass arc.. getting used to it now..
 
I'm like Scott, I use both. Normally track up enroute because I like having what's in front on me at the top of the screen. That presentation is more intuitive for me (ie what's to the left of heading/track on he GPS is off the to the left of the aircraft) and also syncs with the TIS traffic bearing. North up for the big picture (ie area weather, entire flight plan, etc.)
 
I have it both ways

When I built the plane I installed a SL-60 with a MAP 360 that apollo was giving away free. It is a track up display. It is uncluttered and focused on exactly what I am doing. Just to the right of my leg I have a Garmin 695 that is oriented north up much like I have my sectional charts strapped to the kneeboard on my left leg. The MAP 360 display is the one I look at and fly by intuitively. The 695 is there just as a backup it turns out and I seldom rely on it for anything. I am thinking of changing the setup on it to track up so it is consistent with my operational methods and so I can possibly get some actual good out of it.

Bob Axsom
 
Style

Louise Hose said:
I was beaten about both side of the head when I would turn a map any way but north up.
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Having been taught to rotate the chart while avoiding the head thumping, I am a confirmed "track up" guy. This is one of those style issues, no wrong answer if it works for you. When we got the first "glass" airplanes at the airline it was amusing to see how the previous pilot had configured the displays. Some would have it as close to looking like "steam" as possible, others would be utilizing all the bells and whistles. Again, not wrong, just different. The reporting on the wrong side of the airport thing boils my blood. This is simple, even for the track up crowd. :rolleyes: If you have display that looks like an HSI, or simple DG, just look at the bottom of the display before you make the call. If you are heading north, you must be south of the destination. Even works for those of us that can't figure recriprocals in our heads.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
North up here.

For one because i'm used to radar scopes with north up at work.
and two, all the preflight / briefing stuff, flight planning and sectional charts are referenced north and i find it easier to identify the correct airspace blocks and such.

my 50cts,

bernie
 
track or north up.

Why did they put both of them on the equipment. Must be for different applications. Track up is easier to use, but North up is more precise. Also on
Approach plates orientation is North up so it should be compatible with that. To me it just seems that things are more logical with north up. Take your choice, both have their use.
gclark.:D
 
North-up for me

When I try track-up, I sometimes get mixed up when all the reference points move on the map after a turn. It takes me too long to re re-oriented.
 
Louise Hose said:
As a geology student, I was beaten about both side of the head when I would turn a map any way but north up.
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Interesting. The first thing we were taught in MY first field geology class was "hold the map so that the way you are facing is at the top." Cant imagine doing it any other way. Guess geologists cant make up their minds either.

erich
 
track or north up.

Why did they put both of them on the equipment. Must be for different applications. Track up is easier to use, but North up is more precise. Also on
Approach plates orientation is North up so it should be compatible with that. To me it just seems that things are more logical with north up. Take your choice, both have their use.
gclark.:D
 
North up!

North-up works for me because the picture is the same as what I see on my WAC chart book on the seat beside me. I've tried track-up but it was confusing and I agree with the one who said that maybe it's the track-up guys giving incorrect approach bearings. It's strange, though, because in my J-3 days I used to fold the map so that it was along the track. Course, I wasn't covering as much ground at 75 mph as I do now at 200 mph! I think a lot of it has to do with how your mind envisions the world, and it's really the same as the kind of music, cars, politics, etc. that you prefer.
 
Track up

My brain thinks in a north up fashion but the one thing I found that I like about track up is that it acts like a heading indicator. I have a 696 in my -7A but I don't have a heading indicator so when ATC says: "turn heading 320" I use my 696 as HI.
 
Louise Hose said:
That said, it is clear to me that the (mis-guided) men who established aviation protocol, set track up as the standard. As Bob said, it's what the airlines use.
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Those pioneering fools! :D I love it Louise...keep it comin'! Have you met SchoolMom Russell yet? Just flew with her at the WCFC (form clinic) and you guys would hit it off well!!

Louise Hose said:
I'm also convinced that track up is the reason we are frequently hearing folks announce themselves as "2 miles south of the field" and suddenly see them coming straight at you from the northeast. :eek:
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John Clark said:
The reporting on the wrong side of the airport thing boils my blood. This is simple, even for the track up crowd. :rolleyes: If you have display that looks like an HSI, or simple DG, just look at the bottom of the display before you make the call. If you are heading north, you must be south of the destination. Even works for those of us that can't figure recriprocals in our heads.

John Clark
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Concur with John. Using the HSI is a key. What's at the bottom of the azimuth ring is where you are (from the airport you're headin' to). Saves my bacon all the time! ;)

Bob Axsom said:
When I built the plane I installed a SL-60 with a MAP 360 that apollo was giving away free. It is a track up display. It is uncluttered and focused on exactly what I am doing. Just to the right of my leg I have a Garmin 695 that is oriented north up much like I have my sectional charts strapped to the kneeboard on my left leg. The MAP 360 display is the one I look at and fly by intuitively. The 695 is there just as a backup it turns out and I seldom rely on it for anything. I am thinking of changing the setup on it to track up so it is consistent with my operational methods and so I can possibly get some actual good out of it.

Bob Axsom
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Bob, nice thing about track up for racing is that you just put the aircraft flight path vector (the tick-marked line on the nose...probably not the right name) on the magenta line. I know you can do it N-up or Track up, but having it on your nose at close range scales makes it easy to make small turns to adjust. You probably already do this. Works for weather and terrain/obstacle deviations too, at least for me.

Not thumping the Track up chest at all, as both really do have value, and as many have said, there are ranges that N-up just gives a great overall picture. In fact, my 396 changes automatically to N-up at larger ranges. Come to think of it, so does my car's Nav system (which I also use track up...simple minds need simple procedures! :rolleyes:)

Still wondering on the SV setup...does SV on the EFIS/ADI work well next to a N-up SV moving map? Anyone want to trade rides to check it out...I'd love to see SV in action (Track up or N-up...either would be fun!) :)

Cheers,
Bob
 
elippse said:
maybe it's the track-up guys giving incorrect approach bearings.
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Thems fightin' words pardner :)

I would think we would all agree that for wanting to know your location (big picture stuff) it makes sense to have north up. Not many of us would pull out an atlas at home and hold it upside down. However, for active travel and seeing where you are GOING, many (clearly not all!) find track up more intuitive.

erich
 
rvmills said:
Still wondering on the SV setup...does SV on the EFIS/ADI work well next to a N-up SV moving map? Anyone want to trade rides to check it out...I'd love to see SV in action (Track up or N-up...either would be fun!) :)

Cheers,
Bob
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I'm not sure how North Up would even work on Synthetic Vision Bob - by it's very nature it is supposed to be identical to what you would see if you look out your windshield (which better be Track!) :eek:

This is a fascinating thread - I haven't counted, but I see a lot of votes on both sides. Personally, I Think and use Track Up for anything other than getting the "Big Picture" - out beyond a couple hundred miles, North up works better. But when I am navigating in IFR with complex approaches, or movign fast in any type of space, I like to have things oriented the same way that I am - right is right, left is left, and there is no chance I am going to turn in to that tall antenna that is "southeast" of me. No mental math. The HSI was a breakthrough instrument in my book because it was the first "track up" precursor to the moving map in the cockpit. Sure made Back Course approaches simpler!

This discussion really makes me curious how and when the preference for either reference frame gets set in a person's mind. Is it like right or left handed-ness? Right or Left brain dominance? Surely we have some psychologists here who can comment. We've already heard form the "Physical Scientest...::p
 
North up for me

North up for me. That's how I learned to read maps and navigate so my minds eye is north up. My instructor used to turn the chart on me and I would turn it back to North up. He said why do you do it that way? I said "I can't turn the earth so why would I turn the chart?" Track up confuses the heck out of me... but that's just me if your mind thinks in track up mode than use that. It's really just a personal preference.
 
Sleeping

gasman said:
I think the NORTH UP people sleep on the right side of the bed.
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Unless your she-who-must-be-obeyed wants it!

I think I read somewhere that you are to have your bed oriented so that you actually sleep with your head to the north, but that if you sleep with your head to the south, that's bad. Maybe it has something to do with aligning yourself to the earth's magnetic field, and polarizing all of that iron in your blood. 'Wonder if they took into account deviation?
 
North up for me

North up is how I read maps and how I think. I hate when I look at the display and all reference points have changed, just because I changed heading. Takes way too long to get oriented again. I have configured my car navigation system north up, and the moving map in my glider is north up (just imagine sitting in a thermal, trying to use the time to plan ahead to the next turnpoint, and the map keeps turning and turning!). The RV is still in the living room, erm, workshop, and I don't have a power rating yet, but I guess I'll stick with north up.
 
I Vote for Track up.

If you use the track up you get a larger picture of what is ahead of you. The plane is at the bottom and there is more terrain visible on the GPS screen.

I am trying to re-learn. My wife thinks that if charts were held up north up she would have to unbuckle and stand on her head to figure out where we were. I was never all that proficient at reading print upside down myself. Charts are north up. GPS track up. I will go change my plane to track tonight.

That said I have always used north up with my 40 years of sailing and with charts that could wall paper the nav station. Oh but wait the whole world uses GPS now and the sextant is a cool conversation piece for grand kids. Does the GPS get as mixed up as me when the plane is upside down. It is sort of like the question about Does the light go out when you close the refrigerator door? I am not sure. I haven't looked yet.
 
Ironflight said:
I'm not sure how North Up would even work on Synthetic Vision Bob - by it's very nature it is supposed to be identical to what you would see if you look out your windshield (which better be Track!) :eek:
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Paul,

I probably didn't state that well, and I may be using SV incorrectly to describe both the EFIS/ADI and the moving map, in a two screen, or split screen SV system.

On the EFIS/ADI, as you said, the view has to be straight ahead (well maybe it doesn't have to be, but it would be pretty useless if it wasn't...well unless you wanted to look off to the side and see if there was an escape canyon...but I badly digress! :rolleyes:)

On the plan view (overhead) map next to the SV EFIS/ADI, I would think the presentation would be track up as well, so that straight ahead on both screens is a match. Thus, an airport ahead on the moving map is where the SV runway on the EFIS/ADI appears...ahead. I would think looking at a runway (call it RWY 27) ahead on the EFIS/ADI, next to a map that shows the airplane moving right to left on a N-up map towards the same airport would be really confusing. But I'm a track up guy, and it may work for those that like N-up, and that's AOK.

I kind of liken the N-up display to the map you see as a passenger in a 777 or Gulfstream, that shows the progress of the flight. Great for overall SA, but less workable (for me anyway, having bought into the misguided man club ;)) when avoiding wx/terrain/obstacles, or for pointing the airplane at a waypoint or airport. Now, I'm not saying that those using N-up are like pax in the back...really I'm not :p (and that really is tongue in cheek, just foolin'...its like a mayo vs miracle whip thing...whatever works!)

Like you said Paul, it is interesting to see all the responses, and none are wrong, of course! Good to understand that different brains work differently if you're training someone on the use of new gear.

And Warren, its TMI, but I blew up your guess right out of the door...though Scott does have a point...it that right side in a track up or N-up setting? :confused:

Sadly, my unabashed attempt at getting a ride in an SV airplane has met with utter failure! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
Just curious

I wonder how many of the North-Up group are Instrument qualified and file IFR occasionally, as compared to the Track-Up group?

Might be interesting.
 
Ironflight said:
I'm not sure how North Up would even work on Synthetic Vision Bob - by it's very nature it is supposed to be identical to what you would see if you look out your windshield (which better be Track!) :eek:
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Actually Paul, most non-exocentric SVT systems I'm familiar with align the view with the vehicle orientation, i.e. they are "heading forward" and not "track forward". Makes a difference when there's a stiff wind. :)

mcb
 
PCHunt said:
I wonder how many of the North-Up group are Instrument qualified and file IFR occasionally, as compared to the Track-Up group?

Might be interesting.
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That is what I was wondering about when I started the thread. All the responses so far have been great; thanks everyone.
 
North up. Seeing the little map spinning is really confusing. I hate it when I get maps that are not referenced to north up (not just aviation maps).

I sleep on the right side.
 
PCHunt said:
I wonder how many of the North-Up group are Instrument qualified and file IFR occasionally, as compared to the Track-Up group?

Might be interesting.
Click to expand...

The plane I fly all VFR is set for north up and the IFR plane is track up.
 
mburch said:
Actually Paul, most non-exocentric SVT systems I'm familiar with align the view with the vehicle orientation, i.e. they are "heading forward" and not "track forward". Makes a difference when there's a stiff wind. :)

mcb
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Track up, Heading up....Close enough for Guv'mnt work...;):D

That's why we have a Velocity Vector displayed as well!
 
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