[prkaye]

Ok, this is embarassing. I got an RV toolkit (planetools.com), but I'm clueless as to what to do with many of these tools. These are probably ridiculous questions, but I am totally new to metal working, and to air tools. I'm hoping some people here can help me understand how to work these things...

I have this 20 piece rivet set that appears to have three different types of sets. There are FLUSH sets of different sizes, AN470 set of different sizes and then there are pairs of "male/female" sets of different sizes.

1) I presume the male/female pairs are for dimpling. Is this correct?

I have this pneumatic squeezer with a 3" yoke installed. The yoke has a hole in the top of the "C" shape, and a hole in the bottom. It looks like the rivet sets are supposed to go in these holes (the stems of the sets fit nicely into the holes). I tried putting in a male/female pair into the top and bottom holes of the yoke, but there is insufficient clearance between the top and bottom yoke tips for both the male and female sets to fit. I can get one or the other in, but not both.

2) what am i doing wrong here?

3) when you put one of the flush or AN470 sets on the 3" yoke, which hole do you put it in? What goes in the other hole (i.e. what will the back of the rivet strike against- it should be something solid, with a hole, right?)

I also have a 4" yoke which is different; it only has one larger hole, which is too big for the sets to fit in.

4) how do you put the sets into the 4" yoke?? For the flush sets, and for the male/female pairs?

5) What is the "rivet shank" for AN470 rivets for?

The base of the countersink bits is threaded. It looks like they are supposed to screw into the "countersink cage". It appears as this cage is supposed to somehow connect to the air drill. But I could not see how to do this. The air drill does not look like any part of it detaches in any way.

6) Is the countersink cage supposed to go in the air drill? If so, how??

Thanks for any help you can offer!

 

[gpiney]

Phil,
You really need to find a local builder to help. I didn't know the first thing about all this stuff until I asked a friend to show me the 'ropes'.

1. (and 3) The flush sets are different sizes to assist in getting the correct distance between the two when the yoke is closed. You will also find a packet of washers to help get things closer.
Both the flush sets and the dimple pairs fit in the holes.
For the 4" yoke, you would only use 1 flush set. There is no hole on the top. When the 4" is properly installed in the squeezer you will see.

6. NEVER use an air drill to countersink. Use a cordless drill at a very low speed. Low Speed. Low Speed. Countersinking is done S-L-O-W-L-Y. There should be a shaft on one end of the countersink cage which fits into the chuck of a drill. Setting up the countersink is another matter. Get hands on help from someone.

 

[mlw450802]

Alexander Tech Center

Phil,
It sounds like you might need a lot of early help here. I recommend that you seriously consider building your empennage at alexander tech center in Georgia.

There you can learn how all the tools work and get an excellent jump start on your project.

-mike

 

[Paul Eastham]

Hi Phil, congrats on getting started.

You'll surely have many more questions than you've listed here Dan's tools page (http://rvproject.com/tools.html) is a good primer. You might also want to look into one of the sheet metal books (though none that I have seen is very good) or a SportAir class if you can get to one. Orndorff also publishes a tools video. Actually you can have mine if you want it, send your address if interested.

I have this 20 piece rivet set that appears to have three different types of sets. There are FLUSH sets of different sizes, AN470 set of different sizes and then there are pairs of "male/female" sets of different sizes.

1) I presume the male/female pairs are for dimpling. Is this correct?

Yes.

I have this pneumatic squeezer with a 3" yoke installed. The yoke has a hole in the top of the "C" shape, and a hole in the bottom. It looks like the rivet sets are supposed to go in these holes (the stems of the sets fit nicely into the holes). I tried putting in a male/female pair into the top and bottom holes of the yoke, but there is insufficient clearance between the top and bottom yoke tips for both the male and female sets to fit. I can get one or the other in, but not both.

2) what am i doing wrong here?

Try twisting the bottom ram...if it's an adjustable set, it will retract. If it's not adjustable, I don't know why it doesn't fit, but you should get an adjustable set anyway (Avery sells one)

3) when you put one of the flush or AN470 sets on the 3" yoke, which hole do you put it in? What goes in the other hole (i.e. what will the back of the rivet strike against- it should be something solid, with a hole, right?)

Either hole. Other hole gets a flat set.

I also have a 4" yoke which is different; it only has one larger hole, which is too big for the sets to fit in.

That would be a no-hole yoke...the one hole is for the squeezer ram (the silver part that is currently inside your squeezer protruding through the yoke) The rivet will be pressed against the flat bit on the other side. This is used for close-quarters riveting, like on the ends of control surfaces. It's not used for dimpling.

4) how do you put the sets into the 4" yoke?? For the flush sets, and for the male/female pairs?

It only takes one set...you won't be able to dimple using it, for that reason.

5) What is the "rivet shank" for AN470 rivets for?

Not sure what you're referring to here.

The base of the countersink bits is threaded. It looks like they are supposed to screw into the "countersink cage". It appears as this cage is supposed to somehow connect to the air drill. But I could not see how to do this. The air drill does not look like any part of it detaches in any way.

6) Is the countersink cage supposed to go in the air drill? If so, how??

The cage is chucked into the air drill just like a (largish) drill bit. Does it not have a shaft protruding on the non-bit end?

Paul

 

[G-force]

1. Yes, for dimpling. You probaly got a few different sizes, dont mix the pairs up. As for fitting them, sometimes they take some wiggling around. Usualy if you put the female side in first, you can then put the tip of the male die into the female die at an angle, and that will give you clearance to pivot the shank straight and up into the yoke. If your pnumatic squeezer does not have an adjustable set ($69 or so), buy one. It allows you to spin that plunger that moves up and down to adjust its length. Otherwise you have to stack washers of various thicknesses under the dies when you put them in.

3. When setting 470 rivits, you put one flat set in, and one cupped sets. Naturaly the cupped set goes on the rounded rivet head. The flat side smashes the shop head side of the rivet. It doesnt matter which end of the squeezer you put the cupped set...whatever makes it easier to position the squeezer.

4. The 4" "No hole yoke" doesnt use a flat set. The inside flat area of the yoke is what the rivet shop head side is squeezed aghnist. So you only use one set, in the ram, when you use this yoke.

5. Not sure what you mean here...the shank is the portion of the rivet that you stick through a hole. Basicaly the solid round tube-like portion below the head. This shank comes in several thicknesses (thats the 3 or 4 or 5 you see called out on a rivet after "AD" The length of the shank also comes in many lengths, depending on how thick the material you are riveting. The length is the numbers after the dash in a rivet. For example, an AD3-5 rivet means the rivet is 3/32" in diameter (the 3 means three 1/32") and is 5/16" long (the 5 means five 1/16"

6. Yes, the threaded end of the countersink screwes up inside the cage. That 1/4" diameter round post sticking out the top is what you clamp the drill chuck onto. You then hold the outside of the cage with your hand so it does not spin. Only the insides, where the countersing is threaded to, turns. As mentioned, turn it slow. You will notice that the outside of the cage is spring loaded and the inner shaft can only plunge so far. You adjust this amount of travel by twisting the lock ring a few turns, then you can pull and twist the two halfs of the cage body to adjust the length. Some cages the lock ring is a left hand thread so you may have to turn it the opposit way than normal. I always get better results turning it slow when countersinking aluminum so I wouldnt chuck it up in your 2600rpm drill...try a slow electric drill or slow, gear reduced air drill (200-500 rpm or so.)

 

[N674P]

All excellent replies. At minimum work some with somebody that has used this stuff before. The biggest bang for the buck (for self confidence, peace of mind, and basic experience) is Alexander, Synergy, or some similar program. Maybe one is coming to your area!
Always disconnect the air hose when you're changing dies or playing with the business end of the pneumatic squeezer - you do not want to squeeze any part of your body!
Make sure the dimple dies are a matched set. Using (for example) a 1/8" male die with a 3/32" female die will destroy them.
I think the Planetools set comes with big nylon jaw fluting pliers. Most (everybody?) would agree those make too wide a flute. Far better are the all metal pliers - Avery type that has the welded steel wires, or the cast (or machined?) type work well.

 

[lovestofly]

WPA RV Builders

If your interested, Tom Emery has an RV Workshop scheduled for the end of August, for details on the class and what all it entails, go to www.wparvbuilders.nstemp.com, We have had quite a few students from Canada. All of our students have left happy and full of information!!!

Hope to see you there,

Nickie Emery

 

[prkaye]

Thanks!!!

Thanks for all the replies... these have cleared up many of my questions!
A couple remaining questions (for now ):

When you say "flat set", is the same as a "flush set" ?

I haven't actually hooked up the pneumatic squeezer to the air compressor yet (for fear of destroying something in my ignorance). So I'm not sure whether my squeezer has an "adjustable" set. The bottom ram is protuding a bit up above the bottom of hte yoke; perhaps that is why I don't have room to put the dimpling sets in... maybe when I hook the air up the bottom ram can be made to retract lower into the squeezer?

The post on the end of the countersink cage is actually too fat to fit into my air drill chuck. I'll try it in my cordless tonight.

Thanks again! I've put out a plea to the local builders to see if any of them would be willing to come out to my house and educate me.

 

[gpiney]

Phil,

Just a quick warning. When using air tools, you should put a few-10
drops of air tool oil in the air intake before you connect it to the hose. This is for all air tools EXCEPT THE SQUEEZER. NEVER LUBE THE SQUEEZER. You will damage it internally.

 

[Paul Eastham]

Thanks for all the replies... these have cleared up many of my questions!
A couple remaining questions (for now ):

When you say "flat set", is the same as a "flush set" ?

Yes. You can use those flat sets for the manufactured heads on flush rivets, or to create the shop head on any sort of rivet.

I haven't actually hooked up the pneumatic squeezer to the air compressor yet (for fear of destroying something in my ignorance). So I'm not sure whether my squeezer has an "adjustable" set. The bottom ram is protuding a bit up above the bottom of hte yoke; perhaps that is why I don't have room to put the dimpling sets in... maybe when I hook the air up the bottom ram can be made to retract lower into the squeezer?

Don't worry, you'd be hard-pressed to break a squeezer. Run it at 90 PSI.

Remove the yoke from the squeezer to get a look at the set. You should be able to figure out how things work from there. And you really should buy an adjustable set if you do not have one.

The post on the end of the countersink cage is actually too fat to fit into my air drill chuck. I'll try it in my cordless tonight.

Hmm, that's inconvenient...must be a small chuck you've got.

Thanks again! I've put out a plea to the local builders to see if any of them would be willing to come out to my house and educate me.

I sent you a few videos that should get you started. Between those videos and reading the common resources on the web (AC 43.13 and Dan Checkoway's site), I learned most of what I needed to know. But yes, get a fellow builder to come show you the basics if you can.

Paul