H

Harvey L. Sorensen

Well Known Member
Think about this, I just put 100LL in my RV-9A for $4.35 a gallon. On the way home i put diesel in my truck for $4.69 a gallon. Maybe gas might be the fuel for piston powered airplanes for a while yet. just a thought.
 
At the moment, my area, ripoff diesel fuel is averaging $4.49, and the 100LL at the airport next door just went from $5.15 to $5.70.

L.Adamson
 
I heard that diesel in the my home state of CA is now at $4.80+/gal. I can't wait to get home and fill the big Ram. Sucks when your monthly fuel bill exceeds the mortgage!
 
Yesterday I flew up to Faribault MN and needed a little gas to go back home. It was olny $4,55 at their pumps. It looks like this $5.00+ gas showed a little greed on someones part. Some places over charge for fuel and maintenance, charge a tiedown fee and if you stay to long in Main they hit you with a tax.
Then they wonder why there are so few new student pilots and why more people don't fly. It costs $35.00 to $45.00 an hour just for fuel. I am afraid that if I coulden't do my own maintenance I would be hard pressed to justify flying. I can't justify it anyhow but I can still afford the greatest sport given to man. These RVs are a magic carpet pure and simple.
 
Right around the corner from Torrance Airport (TOA), there's a Union 76 selling diesel for $4.999/gal. 100LL is $5.24 at TOA.
 
This sheds a little light on the plight of the turbodiesel engine builders such as Thielert. There is SOME market for their engine in Europe, where the fuel price differential is still large - but the number of aircraft and the percentage of pilots willing to try a radical departure of engine technology is low in Europe. The United States represents the large majority of the worlds GA aircraft, and thus the majority of the potential TD engine market. All the companies that are offering (or threatening to offer) a TD engine today did their engine design and financial planning based on the economics of at least 2 years ago, when diesel was cheap. Now that the price differential has eroded considerably between diesel (or Jet A) and 100LL, I'm really not surprised to see these engine sales (and in some cases the company itself) falter.

Personally, I would love to have a TD on my plane - but it's simply not a practically viable option in todays market.
 
airguy said:
This sheds a little light on the plight of the turbodiesel engine builders such as Thielert. There is SOME market for their engine in Europe, where the fuel price differential is still large - but the number of aircraft and the percentage of pilots willing to try a radical departure of engine technology is low in Europe. The United States represents the large majority of the worlds GA aircraft, and thus the majority of the potential TD engine market. All the companies that are offering (or threatening to offer) a TD engine today did their engine design and financial planning based on the economics of at least 2 years ago, when diesel was cheap. Now that the price differential has eroded considerably between diesel (or Jet A) and 100LL, I'm really not surprised to see these engine sales (and in some cases the company itself) falter.

Personally, I would love to have a TD on my plane - but it's simply not a practically viable option in todays market.
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The strong applications for Aero Diesel engines are for Europe now and tomorrow, emerging countries tomorrow, for the commercial/utility segments in North America when the engines are certified and available (will compete with turbine in the 300-600 HP range) and, the military where shortly only equipment with Heavy Fuel Engines will be procured (especially UAVs where they have numerous advantages over turbine). Unfortunately the well funded OEMs (TAE and SMA) have not yet achieved the Diesel Tsunami, but have planted the seeds and have allowed a substantial amount of knowledge to be gained as well as providing a good number of poeple with the know how; This will permit the next wave to come online when the market is more mature; All it will take is one or a few deep pockets and convinced investors to keep the motion (not excluding the avgas majors but they yet have to address the risk of canibalism and accept no ROI for 10 years); Being one of the SMA and TAE by product I can tell you this second wave is shaping up as I write these lines so, there is light at the end of the tunnel and it is not a train !
 
After hearing all those T. Boone Pickens ads, I was wondering has anyone has heard of an aircraft converted to natural gas?
 
economical

Just because diesel fuel cost more per gallon doesn't mean it's more expensive.
Don't forget that diesel has more BTU's per gallon than gas. That's why my car with a diesel engine gets 42 mpg and the same car with a gas burner only gets 29 mpg. I don't have any problem beating the gasser to the end of the on ramp either. As for an airplane engine, I would love to use diesel if they were available and competitive with regards to weight and cost.
 
Natural gas in a/c is possible but there is a challenge there wrt the Fuel Tanks design complexity, weight and, crashworthiness; Avaiability and handling is another one (MOGAS is bad enough). Further, if hauled in the liquid state its density is shy of 4 lb/USG which is much less than avgas or JET-A; In the gaseous state it would be much lower than 4 lb/USG figure (about 0.05 pound/cubic feet/atm); Since the available volume for fuel in an a/c is usually a problem, then...
 
I also whish those certified and well supported diesels are around the block; Unfortunately, the developers on this side of the pond don't have access to the money that would speed up their programs and, some of our diesel friends on the other side of the pond that have (had for some) access to the money are buried in personal ego wars and/or political/administrative mazes !
 
Diesel...

I watched an interesting program last night. Some news personality was interviewing the ex-ceo of Shell. Lots of what he had to say was very interesting. When asked why deisel was more expensive than gas, he said deisel is the "best" of the barrel of oil, and is very much in high demand. Gasoline, on the other hand is very availible. Jet a, diesel, and home heating oil are in the same family. Airlines are literally "chasing barrels", trying to keep the fleets flying. Very interesting program. It's nice to see an in depth analysis of the situation, rather than soound bites about the evil oil companies on the evening news, and politicians trying to make brownie points.
 
Chappyd said:
I watched an interesting program last night. Some news personality was interviewing the ex-ceo of Shell. Lots of what he had to say was very interesting. When asked why deisel was more expensive than gas, he said deisel is the "best" of the barrel of oil, and is very much in high demand. Gasoline, on the other hand is very availible. Jet a, diesel, and home heating oil are in the same family. Airlines are literally "chasing barrels", trying to keep the fleets flying. Very interesting program. It's nice to see an in depth analysis of the situation, rather than soound bites about the evil oil companies on the evening news, and politicians trying to make brownie points.
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Offer and demand most likely rules to explain the diesel and diesel like fuels high prices; However, to make sure everybody is not chasing the same barrel, a possibility exists with the GDI engine (Gasoline Direct Injection); Works on the diesel cycle, injected like a diesel but, spark ignited like a gasoline engine. That type of engine allows burning gasoline but without the fear of detonation since air is compressed and not an air/fuel mixture; Ignition occurs more or less at the same time the injection is started close to TDC and, like a diesel, the pressure rise is controlled by the injection rate. This allows for higher compression ratios and eliminates the pumping loads of gasoline engines at non-ambiant MP (i.e. improved SFC). Then we could burn fuel that barely no one wants because the Cetane or Octane indices are not really needed. No fancy additives except for lubricity (Re. injection system). Like diesels, the mixture is always lean weather at T-O or idle power so fuel is not used to cool the charge, but excess air (i.e. improved SFC especially on turbocharge engines).
 
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