Steve Ashby

Steve Ashby

Well Known Member
Sponsor
I am at the stage where I am having to get serious about an engine decision. I am committed to a new IO-360 Lycoming or clone and I think I want a dual Lightspeed Plasma III setup. My goals are reliability, normal power and good fuel specifics (in the future I am planning some ambitious legs and will need to seriously stretch my fuel). I was just about set on a Superior XP-360, but, on a recommendation, I sat down with JB Engine Service and they gave me a quote on a Titan engine that was almost $3k less. I also spoke with another respected engine shop, who stated that they had reservations on the Titan Kit because of fit problems. OK guys, what do you think? I am in search of informed opinions.
Thanks,
 
Different makers, different problems, is what I have heard, i.e., I have heard they both have had problems. Who is going to build your engine? I think I would go with the recommendation of the guy who has to stand behind it. And if Shop A says Superior and Shop B says Titan, and they are both reputable shops, I would go for the cheapest one, after considering a couple factors: Superior has the roller cam and ECI cylinders won't rust as quickly (good if you don't fly frequently). There are probably some other differences, but that's what I remember, so if the prices are close, go with what you want.
 
Talk to Aero Sport Power. They will build you any of the Big Three and in what ever combination of parts that you like. Ergo, they know about 'em all and will answer all your questions.

I just shopped my third RV engine (besides others). This go-around it's ECi Nickel+Carbide with a few mods I want. At the moment, Lyc is basically high priced. So is Superior - and they have Thielert business problems I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. ECi is fine and seems the one most quoted if you don't ask for anything specific. Lycon in Visalia, CA, builds a mighty fine engine and is a very good customizer.

John Siebold
Boise, ID
 
Or you can get the best of all three.

I recently had AeroSport Power build me a Superior engine, but with the new ECI tapered fin NC cylinders. My 3 year warranty doesn't start until first flight.

Walter
 
Best of all three is a good idea..

I just got mine from Aerosport. Superior components except ECI cylinders. Talk to Bart about the pros and cons of all these things. He has worked with them all for a long time and knows the performance vs. the sales pitch. He has the best warranty I've ever found and his reputation is flawless as far as I can find.
 
I've had exceptional luck with America's Aircraft Engines. They built an IO-540 in my 10. It is the smoothest engine I have ever flown behind. Their warranty is two years. These are the guys that built an engine at SnF. It was pretty cool to watch step by step as this engine came togeather, and it fired up in 1 revolution.

http://www.overhaul.com/index.html
 
I know that ECI had an AD out of the cylinders they produced a few years back. Most of that is behind them.

Superior has a more recent AD on many of their cylinders.

Remember that the ECI cylinders that don't rust have the Cerminil coating (the same as Nikasil) The ECI cylinders that are through hardened steel rust just like any other. Just because you purchase ECI does not mean no rust.

Franklin
 
I just went through all of this.

Superior was my first choice. Then, I decided I wanted a kit engine and build it myself.
I sat at the Matituck tent for 5 hours and watched an 0-360 grow before my eyes. After all of the details that make a good engine great, I decided against a self built kit engine.
ECI: If you use their injection, you need a return line. I didn't plumb a return line. ECI does not offer roller tappets.
Superior: Roller tappets and recent cylinder problems.
Lycoming: I believed them to be expensive.

Superior VS Lycoming roller tappets: Superior uses a standard case with a round hole for the lifter. The lifter has a slot in it. The case is drilled and a set screw is tapped to ride in the lifter slot to prevent the lifter from rotating.
Lycoming lifter for roller tappets has one flat side with the hole in the case machined accordingly to prevent rotation. Mattituck said they would build me whatever I wanted, but their choice in roller tappet engines was the Lycoming version: less penetrations in the case, simpler design.

Lycoming price: Van's has a special till the end of the month. I broke down and went with a Experimental lycoming from Van's. XIO-360-M1B, $23,950 with free shipping and long term engine preservation (pickle). All in all, with shipping, about $1K off from the final delivered cost.

The superior I wanted was going to cost ~24.6 plus shipping.

I actuall bought my prop from Van's back in Jan. If I had waited and ordered it with the engine, I would have saved an additional $1K off the price. And before you ask, I already did, the will not make exceptions. The prop/engine must be ordered at the exact same time to get the additional $1K discount.

I will have to pull the right mag and replace it with a Plasma-3. I can sell the mag on ebay and recover some of the cost.
And another thing I learned: The crank sensor for the Plasma EI bolts to the front of the case, behind the flywheel. These two bolt holes are for something that is no longer used. New Lycoming cases do not have these bolt holes. Mattituck said they would drill and tap if required. I guess I will have to go with the HAL effect pickup.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/open/Lyc-snf.jpg
 
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cujet said:
I know that ECI had an AD out of the cylinders they produced a few years back. Most of that is behind them.

Superior has a more recent AD on many of their cylinders.

Remember that the ECI cylinders that don't rust have the Cerminil coating (the same as Nikasil) The ECI cylinders that are through hardened steel rust just like any other. Just because you purchase ECI does not mean no rust.

Franklin
Click to expand...

Franklin
I suggest you go and re-read Gary Sobek's post. Check the links he provided. ECI has had the most recent problems. Thanks for the clarification on ECI cylinder surfaces. The Superior Millenium cylinders have a similar differentiation . The less expensive "classic cast" Milleniums use a sand cast cylinder head, like ECI and Lycoming. The more expensive Millenium IIs have the improved "investment cast" (think modern aluminum casting like modern Japanese motorcycles) cylinder heads. These heads also have the ports and combustion chamber machined with CNC equipment. That means that the ports are all the same size & shape. Every combustion chamber has the same volume. Basically, these heads are already "CCed & ported". Investment casting is stronger than sand casting, as well. These heads also have added material in the areas where cracks commonly occur. Unfortunately, Superior's cylinders do not come with the rust resistant Cerminil coating.
Charlie Kuss
 
I am about to build an RV-10 and have read this thread with much interest.

What is wrong with the brand new Lyc IO540 ? I am seriously thinking of taking the Vans price list and ticking the boxes!

Interested to hear your thoughts and why you consider all the other options. Of course on the other side of the planet its a bit hard to exercise your warranty when a shop in NY built your engine!

Cheers
David :)
 
It's in our nature as experimental builders/pilots to want something better but the fact is the jugs themselves are quite close in price and since very few will first run the engine to TBO (even though we all think otherwise) and recalls are possible equally with any of the three, it probably will not matter which ones you pick.

Few aircraft will fly more than 100 hrs per year averaged over 2,000 hours unless the plane is sold. Perhaps much more at first but tapering off as the years pass. This would equate to 20 years of flying. It's a very conservative bet that fuel burned over the next 20 years will average $10/gal. Less now and more latter.

2,000 hrs x $10/gal x 8 gal/hr = $ 160,000.00

The engine price could almost be considered incidental.
 
RV10inOz said:
What is wrong with the brand new Lyc IO540 ? I am seriously thinking of taking the Vans price list and ticking the boxes!

Interested to hear your thoughts and why you consider all the other options. Cheers
David :)
Click to expand...

Nothing is wrong with a factory Lycoming. They are good engines that will likely last you a lifetime, properly maintained. The engine on my Cessna is nearly 30 years old and just going through it's first overhaul.

However, I am in an interesting position to compare 540's. My boss operates 2 EA300L's. One with a BPE 315HP 540 and one with a bone stock 300HP Lyc 540 (both are angle valve engines). The BPE has 10 to 1 compression, port and flow work along with a proper blueprinting and balancing. Alan Barret built the engine with me looking on. Otherwise, both engines have the same exhaust, intake, mags and injection systems.

The BPE engine is much smoother, a bit more powerful and much more pleasant to fly. It also sounds better, mostly due to the exhaust "bark" that is typical of high compression. The BPE also has some serious throttle response, quite unlike the stock Lycoming which feels lazy by comparison.

Is there really much difference when flying side by side? Nope. A couple of knots, max.

As far as reliability goes, the nod has to go to the Lycoming. I did have to re ring 4 cylinders on the BPE early on, HOWEVER, that was engine installation error. The mechanic who installed the engine did not cowl it during ground runs/leak checks. The aft 4 cylinders overheated. The same mechanic treated the lycoming the same way without issue.

My conclusion is that I would rather fly the BPE 540. Smoother, more responsive, more efficient, more powerful. Simply more pleasant.

Franklin
 
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