MartinPred

MartinPred

Well Known Member
Sponsor
If you've been following the saga of 402BD, my RV-4 (a.k.a. the Lemon Squeeze), you know that I had a prop strike back in December which destroyed my Sensenich wood and prompted my to replace my old, wrung-out O-360 with a factory re-man O-360 and a shiny new Catto three-blade. But because the airplane is stuck at North Las Vegas where Phase I ops are not allowed, I've been trying to demonstrate to the FAA that the new prop does not constitute a "major change," and that they don't have to put me back into Phase I for five hours.

Well, despite my producing records from other aircraft (and a special thanks to my fellow Van heads for helping me with that), it looks like I will not be successful. :( The FSDO has been very helpful, and the inspector was willing to take it to his leadership to make my case, but due to the political pressure on the Las Vegas FSDO from the Las Vegas politicians, and the fact that the Catto does not have an STC, they don't think they can't get away with even the slightest liberalness in interpreting the airworthiness regulations.

In fact I'm told the VGT Airfield Manager has gotten personnaly involved to make sure that my airplane does not take off from VGT.

So I have two choices: find a Sensenich wood to put on the airplane so that there's no change, or truck it out to Jean. I've been unable to locate a matching Sensenich, and it would take Sensenich eight weeks to make me a new one (too late for OSH).

That leaves door number two. And I'm going to once again ask for help from my fellow Van heads. Does anyone in the Las Vegas area have a suitable trailer that I might borrow and some experience transporting an RV-4 via trailer?

Any help would be appreciated.

-Matt Martin
402BD (ready to fly but grounded)
 
This sounds like you only need a prop to leave Sin City???

Land at Henderson, and put on the Catto??

Really surprised you havent found a loaner.

Gives a whole new perspective to the saying "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas":mad:

Sorry, I do not have a prop to loan you---wish I did.

Good luck to you.
 
trucks and trailers

Beware of auto transport trailers, they generally do not have sprung suspension. (they assume the car that is strapped to it does have a suspension)

If you rent a box truck, ride quality varies there too. I've moved my RV-8 three times in a box truck. Two trips back and forth 150 miles to a paint shop, and one trip to a rural airport like you are doing now.

U-haul trucks really do ride a bit softer, but still pretty harsh. The freight trucks from Budget and Penske and such, have a lift gate that can make loading easy, but they ride much harder.

The cool answer would be for EAA chapters to have aircraft transport trailers. Years ago, a local A&P had a trailer that was custom built to haul Citabria's. It would work for RV's too. But he's in Texas now.

Hope that helps, good luck.
 
Couldn't you just borrow any FP prop? Find someone willing to loan you their extension, prop, spinner, and plate?

Unfortunately I don't have one to lend, but perhaps you don't have to limit yourself to wood sensenich props?
 
NORTH VEGAS

This is a perfect example of what the irresponsible act of one individual does to everyone in the EAB community. The drastic restrictions at VGT are the result of the Velocity crash that killed two people in their home. To make a long story short the Velocity should not have been flying out of North Vegas. Everyone from the Director of Airports to state legislators wanted to permanently ban homebuilts from North Vegas. Only very agressive action by EAA, AOPA and the Vegas pilot group averted this. Yes I know the airport was there before the homes, in fact the airport dates to 1940-41. And the dozens of previous crashes were nearly all type certificated airplanes.
 
Request top story tomorrow, Martin

Martin,
Give the borrowed prop idea one more day. I'll put the request as the top story tomorrow on the VAF home page. Maybe somebody that doesn't dig into the forums but reads the front will have a prop you can borrow.

b,
d
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Martin,
Give the borrowed prop idea one more day. I'll put the request as the top story tomorrow on the VAF home page. Maybe somebody that doesn't dig into the forums but reads the front will have a prop you can borrow.

b,
d
Click to expand...

Good idea boss.
 
Possible solution

According to my AFD, the Tower closes at 2300 hours. What does the airspace become when the tower closes? Hmmmm.... Geeee, I know, look it up.

Just a thought. It gets light at 4:30 am, before the tower opens....:D
 
RV7Guy said:
According to my AFD, the Tower closes at 2300 hours. What does the airspace become when the tower closes? Hmmmm.... Geeee, I know, look it up.

Just a thought. It gets light at 4:30 am, before the tower opens....:D
Click to expand...

So what happens if something goes wrong? Same as with the Velocity. The airport is still the same airport whether the tower is open or not. Let's stick to the rules. Otherwise it just gets deeper and deeper.
 
RV7Guy said:
According to my AFD, the Tower closes at 2300 hours. What does the airspace become when the tower closes? Hmmmm.... Geeee, I know, look it up.

Just a thought. It gets light at 4:30 am, before the tower opens....:D
Click to expand...

I really like your idea-----too bad the feds are already aware/involved with this one. I suspect it could be a "win a battle, loose the war" scenario ............
 
Taking my chances

RV7Guy said:
According to my AFD, the Tower closes at 2300 hours. What does the airspace become when the tower closes? Hmmmm.... Geeee, I know, look it up.

Just a thought. It gets light at 4:30 am, before the tower opens....:D
Click to expand...

Trust me, I've given that some serious thought. And I'm wishing I never got the FSDO involved. But now that they know about me, I'm worried about the repercussions if something goes wrong...

-Matt
402BD
 
Meant as a joke

MartinPred said:
Trust me, I've given that some serious thought. And I'm wishing I never got the FSDO involved. But now that they know about me, I'm worried about the repercussions if something goes wrong...

-Matt
402BD
Click to expand...

This was meant as a joke. Things have been too serious here lately. Yeah if you didn't get the FSDO involved you could pull it off. Afterall when the tower closes it is Class G airspace and the regs show that. They would have a hard time doing anything about it but, it would be the win the battle lose the war deal. At least you don't have an alt engine on the thing. THEN we would have a problem:eek: Oh, stop. Lighten up everyone!!!!
 
One pretty long shot:

I towed my RV4 on the gear, with the wings on it, about 10 miles to the airport at around 3:00 am. Just lash the tail down in the back of a pickup, leave control surfaces off, and its good to go. Takes up two lanes though :p

If you don't have too far to go to get out of Dodge, that might work.
 
Prop-er Procedures

Matt,

Would a Sensy Metal FP work? If not, I have two Thorp buddies there I flew with in the AF, they might be able to help. Contact me via PM...

Smokey
HR2
 
Re-Attack

Well, after hearing from some of you today (much appreciated), I'm more certain than that I want to avoid trying to remove the wings and relocating the airplane. But after digging into the FARs a bit, I think I have grounds for an appeal. Here's what I've come up with:

- My operating limitations state that "Any major change to this aircraft, as defined by FAR 21.93, invalidates the special airworthiness certificate issued for this aircraft."

- Part 21.93 states that "A 'minor change' is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are 'major changes..'"

So as I go through that laundry list, here's what I come up with:

- Weight. The Sensenich prop weighed 12 lbs. The new Catto prop weighs 16 lbs. This increases the empty weight of the aircraft from 1,051 lbs to 1,055 lbs--a 0.4% difference in weight. This can be confirmed by re-weighing the aircraft.

- Balance. The tiny change in weight means that the center a gravity for the Catto prop will also change by less than 1%. This can be verified by a new W&B.

- Structural Strength. The Catto is actually stronger than the Sensenich prop as evidenced by the fact that the maximum RPM for the Sensenich is 2600 RPM per the manufacturer while the Catto maximum RPM is 3200 RPM per the manufacturer.

- Reliability. As evidenced by the records some of you provided me, I would think that the reliability of the Catto prop would not be in question.

- Operational characteristics or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. When comparing the Vetterman test to my previous speed runs, I see that at the same pressure altitude and RPM, the Catto and the Sensenich are within 5% of each other for cruise speed. And since the gross weight and aerodynamic design factors have not changed, we can conclude that stall speed in the various configurations will also not change.

Does that all check with you guys? And have any of you had any experience appealing an airworthiness decision with the FAA?

Thanks,

-Matt
402BD
 
Yet another opinion

I recently changed the FP prop on my RV-6a, and the change was considered to be major. So I had to put the plane back into Phase I for 5 hours. I was told that if I changed to yet another prop, I should go through the process again. All this from the local FSDO.

I must say, seems right to me. A different prop can have a fairly large effect on aircraft performance.

I have the impression that this is fairly standard throughout the nation, but would appreciate a DAR opinion.

Seems your best bet would be to hold off for a borrowed prop. There's gotta be one somewhere in VAF-land. If I had one on my plane, I'd be happy to remove it and let you use it for a flight or two. Unfortunately, mine is a Catto.
 
RV-4 Prop

Matt, I have a Wernke prop off an RV-4. Took it off a 150HP powered 4 because i wanted a new Sensenich for better performance. It's not new but could get you out of Vegas.

I'm in Dallas area and can ship it to you. let me know.

thanks

Eric
 
my $.02...

I'd get a Sensenich sticker and put it on your Catto prop, and bust a$$ out of there.

And tell them I loaned you the prop. :)
 
rocketbob said:
my $.02...

I'd get a Sensenich sticker and put it on your Catto prop, and bust a$$ out of there.

And tell them I loaned you the prop. :)
Click to expand...

Busting out with the three blade might be a little too obvious. But a two-blade wood...

-Matt
402BD
 
Remember this

Lets all remember the attitude toward general aviation and expirimental aviation in particular when it comes time to plan that gambling junket or business meeting. Personally, I don't think they should get our $$'s if they give us the run around for such a trivial issue.

Really burns me ... Reno's got nice casinos too, and they seem to like general aviation pilots there!
 
Do NOT leave your keys in the aircraft....

or a joyriding delinquent pilot may take your aircraft for a 2AM ride before abandoning it at another airport and disappearing into the desert, laughing about forcing you to retrieve your aircraft. Didn't something like that happen to an aircraft from Canada earlier this year?
 
PROP

I have offered Matt my brand new Sterba which I can deliver to Vegas. A Sensenich would be better so keep looking for one of those. In the past I have changed make and model prop dozens of times without a thought of reverting back to phase one. The real issue here goes beyond safety, and is directly related to the Las Vegas Director of Airports.
 
I think a couple of people have hit the nail on the head. I'd sure have a hard time supporting an airport that causes these sorts of dilemmas. Voting with your wallet is often the best way to make a difference.

Good luck with the prop ordeal. Has EAA been involved in this process? Is there some legal help in that avenue available?
 
Good grief, this is ridiculous!

Matt, I?m glad to hear the local FSDO has been helpful in your plight, but I?m curious if you?ve contacted EAA/AOPA legal or any of your elected officials?

Mel, maybe you can answer this one. For certified aircraft I?ve seen the FAA issue special ferry permits to aircraft that are not ?airworthy? because of needed repairs. The permits are usually issued only to the nearest repair station. Does a similar permit exist for experimental aircraft and might one be applied for here?
 
philcam said:
Mel, maybe you can answer this one. For certified aircraft I?ve seen the FAA issue special ferry permits to aircraft that are not ?airworthy? because of needed repairs. The permits are usually issued only to the nearest repair station. Does a similar permit exist for experimental aircraft and might one be applied for here?
Click to expand...
Yes, a Special Flight Permit can be issued for experimental aircraft. With all the uproar at VGT, the FSDO may be reluctant to issue one.
 
I have a wood prop

Matt,

I have a good two blade Wanke wood prop off my RV-4 180 that I replaced with a CS. It has recently been flight tested on a friends 180 hp when he had a prop strike on his plane, used it to ferry home. It comes with extension and bolts, let me know if it would help.

940 613 2797
 
one more idea to pile on.

First, I have to check, but I believe my op-lims specifically mention something about going back to phase 1 if I change the prop. It even prescribes the nature of the logbook entry if I go through that. Not sure if they all say the same thing.

I would definitely call eaa/aopa and see about getting their assistance for a special ferry permit, but here's a thought:

Now, if a 5-hour phase 1 is required, is it required that you are actually airborne? Can you have a few long sessions of doing runups and taxis? I'll grant you that 5 hours is a long dang time for that, but if it satisfies the legal requirement, then why not?

I'll go back to thinking unkind thoughts about that world class sphincter of an airport manager.
 
What if??

When I got out of police work it triggered a little rebeleous streak. So, what if, after this all settles down and the temperatures cool down, we do a MASS flyin to North Las Vegas? They have a nice restaurant. Lets say we create a wait for about 3 hours.

Also, not just RV's, any Experimental we can get to attend. Power in numbers.

We could make a couple of calls to the media. Think it will have an influence? I do!!!
 
Darwin,

I love your idea, with the exception of the fact that you'd be spending money (food and maybe fuel) at an airport that despises experimentals.
 
Not everyone

philcam said:
Darwin,

I love your idea, with the exception of the fact that you'd be spending money (food and maybe fuel) at an airport that despises experimentals.
Click to expand...

Only the airport manager doesn't like Experimentals. The restaurant people are nice as well as the fuel vendor and ramp folks. No need to punish them. They might be able to cause some pressure for the airport manager to chill.

I like North Las Vegas. It is convenient and a nice airport. Too bad one guy has to spoil it for many.
 
jrs14855 said:
I have offered Matt my brand new Sterba which I can deliver to Vegas...QUOTE]

I think I'm going to take Jim up on his offer. My ops lims say that they become invalid if I do a "major change" per FAR 91.23. But as I read 91.23, swapping a two-blade wood for an very similiar two-blade wood with no "appreciable change" in weight, balance, or operating characteristics, meets the definition of a "minor change."

-Matt
402BD
Click to expand...
 
delivery cost

I will donate to the cost of helping get this problem resolved, this must be
a real frustrating process.. Tell me were to send the money >? Jim need
some fuel money or shipping funds ?

Danny..
 
prop

I have a week off and was headed for Havasu where the prop is and looking for an excuse to go to Vegas. If Matt decides to go with my prop I will be dropping it off at the shop that worked on his airplane. If he doesn't have to use it I will pick it up there next month. Thanks for the offer of expense money but not necessary.
 
Warnke prop available if needed

I've been watching this thread with disgust at the airport manager and wishing there was a way I could help.

I do have a Warnke wood prop off 160HP RV-4 that I would be happy to lend if it is needed. I was thinking it needed to be a direct replacement so didn't offer earlier. Let me know if you need it and I will be happy to ship it to you.

By the way I love my Catto prop (2 blade).


Steve

N144SH
RV-4
 
RV7Guy said:
When I got out of police work it triggered a little rebeleous streak. So, what if, after this all settles down and the temperatures cool down, we do a MASS flyin to North Las Vegas? They have a nice restaurant. Lets say we create a wait for about 3 hours.

Also, not just RV's, any Experimental we can get to attend. Power in numbers.

We could make a couple of calls to the media. Think it will have an influence? I do!!!
Click to expand...


Do it this weekend and fly the plane in question out with the group as a flight, fly off the time and return, if they ask, you trucked it out, now that’s rebellious!
 
airport manager

Is the airport manager's position one that is elected or appointed?

Is there a way to contribute $$$ to the opponent of the elected official that appoints this guy?

Can we put a bunch of diuretic in his coffee? :D
 
Love it

RV7Guy said:
When I got out of police work it triggered a little rebeleous streak. So, what if, after this all settles down and the temperatures cool down, we do a MASS flyin to North Las Vegas? They have a nice restaurant. Lets say we create a wait for about 3 hours.

Also, not just RV's, any Experimental we can get to attend. Power in numbers.

We could make a couple of calls to the media. Think it will have an influence? I do!!!
Click to expand...


Like the Idea Darwin,

We could do an interview with one of our better looking members (not me I got a funny accent..:)..) with the mass of airplanes behind pointing out that this is the last time anybody with an experimental certificate will be showing up, we could go on about how all these experimentals have proper airplane engines blah blah..Except that guy with the accent who is cheating death with electric fuel pumps.

Hey this could be history in the making..:)

Frank
 
New Development: Need a DAR

The saga continues...

The FSDO wants to grant me a Ferry Permit, but feel they lack the technical expertise to do so. So now that want a local DAR who has experience with experimentals to step forward and sign me off.

Anyone know any DARs in the Vegas area?

If not, I still have a loaner prop standing by.

Thanks,

-Matt
402BD


[ed. Matt, I'll post this up top VAF tomorrow a.m. and maybe we can get you a DAR. dr]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A ferry permit can usually be issued to an IA who does the airworthiness determination...

I believe the IA applies for it where the IA is based... regardless of where the aircraft is moving from/to.

I'm based at Los Angeles FSDO, and would be willing to do the leg work for ya to ferry it with the Catto or a loaner two blade to the airport of your choice. PM me if you're interested.
 
osxuser said:
A ferry permit can usually be issued to an IA who does the airworthiness determination...

I believe the IA applies for it where the IA is based... regardless of where the aircraft is moving from/to.

I'm based at Los Angeles FSDO, and would be willing to do the leg work for ya to ferry it with the Catto or a loaner two blade to the airport of your choice. PM me if you're interested.
Click to expand...


You my be my life saver. Sent you a PM.

-Matt
402BD
 
Vegas DAR in case the Ferry Permit won't work.

We have no DARS in the Las Vegas area. I used John Shablow for my inspection in April. He travels from Temecula CA in his RV8A, so there is an additional cost, but he is very helpful. His phone is (951) 259-2997.
 
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