Toobuilder

Toobuilder

Well Known Member
The recent thread on the hazards of low passes illustrated some enlightening responses. While birdstrikes and impact with the ground/objects remain obvious hazards, it seems that loss of positive aircraft control was the compelling root cause for fatal accidents. The videos shown were particularly powerful evidence of this (that?s the conclusion that I drew, anyway). In this same thread, we heard some ideas that transition training would go a long way towards improving the safety record, yet several posts later a member admits that they have never spun their airplane. In other ?safety? related threads it is common for members to list a minimum approach speed or limited bank angles as a personal limitation. In still others, we have ?devices? that can be installed which will fix our collective ills? Sounds to me like we don?t really know our airplanes as well as we should.

I read this as a lack of commitment to basic stick and rudder skills in a culture that is trying to enhance flying safety. :confused:

Sure, we've been told that teaching spins as part of the private syllabus was killing more students and instructors than it was saving, so now we have recoiled to ?stall awareness? training ? where the student does not even need to demonstrate a full stall anymore. And thanks to the proliferation of nosewheels you now need an endorsement to fly a tailwheel aircraft, as if operating such an aircraft requires ?advanced? skills. Have we gone forward or regressed?

So I thought that I would throw this out there for discussion: Are current private pilots actually equipped to operate an aircraft safely? And further, does the so called ?transition training? really further the pilots skills, or does it merely allow him to operate a new airplane at the same relative skill level as before ? but with a new airplane type?

Evidence suggests that there is lots of ?low hanging fruit? to improve our safety record ? Don?t run out of gas; don?t fly VFR to IMC? Shouldn?t improving stick and rudder skills also be near the top of the list? Don?t wait for someone to prepare a PowerPoint presentation or call a safety meeting ?getting better on the stick is something we can do on our very next flight!

Thoughts?
 
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training

Michael- You're absolutely right. I see evidence of lack of skills every day at the airport. As I have posted before:
10 hours aerobatic training in Pitts or equivalent
5 hours dual in your XYZ Special AB with an OUTSTANDING instructor
Sit back and watch the accident rate drop. This is NOT about low passes, it IS about the lack of pertinent training and current skills.
 
I totally agree. I think aerobatic training should be mandatory... All they beat into your head during private training is straight and level, straight and level, straight and level. The first time you roll upside down really blows your mind.

-- some people won't ever have stick and rudder skills no matter how much training they get. It's like playing sports when you were a kid - some kids will just never be good.
 
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As someone with 45 hours in my logbook and a private ticket, I can tell you that I am far from a complete pilot. I still consider myself a student pilot in every way except that I can learn safely enough to take a passenger along during certain types of flights. At least, that will be the case once I get the pesky biennial out of the way.

I do consider spin training, aerobatic training, and more instrument training to be absolute must haves on my list moving forward.

To me, it's all about attitude. If you think you've accomplished something and you're set just because the DPE signs your ticket there's a better than average chance you could have issues going forward.


Edit: I would add tailwheel as a requirement too except I started in a champ so I'm a little ahead of the game on that.
 
At 1300+ hours and 1250+ tailwheel, 400+ RV...

Phlyan Pan said:
As someone with 45 hours in my logbook and a private ticket, I can tell you that I am far from a complete pilot. I still consider myself a student pilot in every way except that I can learn safely enough to take a passenger along during certain types of flights.
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I still consider myself in the same way! I am far from complete and a student with something to learn every time I spin that prop!

Toobuilder - you are spot on!
 
Absolutely, completely agree 100%. I personally (low time pilot) have a three stage plan: 1. take some aerobatics (including spins) 2. upset recovery training and 3. transition training before I fly my RV. I dont, in any way, believe that what I learned in my primary training is adequate for keeping myself safe in the event of an uncommanded upset. It was just scratching the surface when it comes to stick/rudder skills.

Sure, its going to cost me a little bit extra for this training...but man, isnt your life worth that money? In addition to the training, I wonder how many pilots go out and just do 'air work' on a regular basis?...actually practice your skills that you've been trained to do to stay sharp? These skills will atrophy, just because you learned them once doesnt mean they are forever mastered. As an ex-athlete, repetition was king...practice over and over and over again so that when the pressure is on you can perform instinctively. Pressure does funny things to people. Flying is no different...well, actually it is...its about life and death--baseball isnt. 99.9% of our flying is routine...what happens when that 0.1% occurs? I think a lot of pilots in fatal LOC accidents just get into bad situations and really have no idea how to get out of them when they see the ground filling their view.

I would love to know how many current pilots have taken URT or aerobatics of any kind (even in you plan to never be upside down)? I had a guy (nice guy, not trying to disparage him) take me for a ride in his RV8 once...we did some aerobatics and I asked him how he learned, he said the guy that sold him the plane gave him a 'demo' flight to show him how. Wow...really? Of course I didnt learn this until after the fact.
 
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I would add Actual IMC to the list too.

I did a few hours of both Acro and IMC during my PPC training, and I thought it was a great reinforcement to the basics and overall safety...not just "extra".
 
This is not about ?advanced? training per se? This is about practicing what we have been taught, getting comfortable, then pushing a little further, and on and on. It?s my opinion that the PTS is marginally adequate in the best circumstances, so simply practicing the same watered down maneuvers so you can get through a BFR is not helping our collective safety.

I think that if we all made a conscious choice to not only practice, but to incrementally expand our envelope, we could get safer. If you?ve never REALLY stalled your airplane, work up to it based on the training you have now. Pretty soon you will find that you can keep the wings level (and even make turns) with the rudder with the stick fully in your lap. I have some things I need to work on myself?

?Next flight, I?ll do it.
 
While I appreciate the responses so far, I realized that I steered us of the track a little bit. My intent was to get everyone?s thoughts on the state of training today. While we are ?told? that the PPL is a ?license to learn?, the fact is there is no requirement to do any better than when we passed our checkride.

So the points of discussion remain:

1. Is PPL and transition training good enough?
2. And while advanced training/ratings is a GREAT idea, is there an informal safety opportunity within our current framework? In other words, what can we do ON OUR NEXT FLIGHT to become more familiar with our airplanes?
 
Micheal,

?So I thought that I would throw this out there for discussion: Are current private pilots actually equipped to operate an aircraft safely? And further, does the so called ?transition training? really further the pilots skills, or does it merely allow him to operate a new airplane at the same relative skill level as before ? but with a new airplane type??

I agree with everything you say! And I also wonder about the quote above after riding with an RV pilot that almost ran us off the end of a 3000? runway, he had transition training in his airplane, checked off and insured, over 100 hours, man did he need help! I offered to help him (not a CFI) he declined but did get help and is doing very well now. His initial transition training was on the east coast, don?t know who with.

Personally I don?t think any gadgets will save you if you don?t know your airplane, only knowing how to fly it and where its limits are will save you, stick, rudder and seat of your pants skills. Have you done stalls in your RV? After doing them myself I wonder how anyone can get in that condition without knowing its coming and correct it well before.

I am trained in aerobatics, in my RV-4 I have done stalls straight ahead, flaps, clean, in a turn , right and left, in skids/slips right and left, power on, power off, every which way to upset the airplane, I have also done spins. I practice this stuff as well as the normal acro on a regular basis. My airspeed indicator does not even register at or near a stall, during landing approach the needle is straight up long before touch down. I don?t need an AOA; I don?t even need an airspeed indicator. Get to know your plane well, if you need help for that then get it, continue to practice, if your doing that then I don?t see how you can get into a stall spin in the pattern if your paying attention, atleast not in an RV that has no bad habits, is easy to fly and will tell you miles before it stalls if you know what your watching for and your watching.

That said, if you want these gadgets go for it, it?s cool stuff but does not replace pilot skills.
 
1. Is PPL and transition training good enough?

Probably depends on the instructor.

2. And while advanced training/ratings is a GREAT idea, is there an informal safety opportunity within our current framework? In other words, what can we do ON OUR NEXT FLIGHT to become more familiar with our airplanes?

All the stuff I pointed out in my last post, practicing that stuff will save your life. I forgot to mention plane old slow flight, right at the edge of a stall, Van also preaches this, he is spot on.
 
BINGO... you are right. Advanced S&R skills come back to pay dividends in many ways. The best formation pilots have abilities that have become second nature. VERY low level runs give a great return on investments made in building the S&R skill set. A lot of pilots have a tailwheel endorsement... but... a lot ground loop and don't understand how to land well anyway. Off-airport STOL work (in Cubs and such) requires precision landing that can ONLY be demonstrated by the very best S&R pilots.

IMC work does little to enhance Stick & Rudder skills. It is its own discipline. Aerobatic work, on the other hand, gets you thinking outside the box (no pun intended).

Over the years I've had to unlearn techniques the FAA wanted me to know, and adopt military based techniques that I now hold dear. Instead of spending money on some bright new gizmo staring back at them from the panel... pilots need to spend time and money building the RIGHT set of skills.

FWIW... Hours in the log book are a terrible way to judge a pilot!! I just flew with an airline pilot of 25 years. He sucked. He couldn't do any of the basic things a student pilot could do. We were in my Cardinal, which is a piece of cake to fly, but I had to knock him off the controls twice. He was a wreck waiting to happen. I won't say who he flies for, but... I won't be buying any tickets to fly US Air!!

(Great idea for a thread, BTW...)
 
Toobuilder said:
1. Is PPL and transition training good enough?
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My response would be, good enough for what?

To fly around in your average cessna/piper and give people rides and slowly expand your envelope of experience and comfort...yes I think it usually is.

To hop in an RV and do the same? Absolutely not.


Toobuilder said:
2. And while advanced training/ratings is a GREAT idea, is there an informal safety opportunity within our current framework? In other words, what can we do ON OUR NEXT FLIGHT to become more familiar with our airplanes?
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The only thing I can think of would be to start a list of things that should be practiced and a timeline of frequency that they should be practiced. Sort of like an unofficial currency on various maneuvers.

For instance:

Stalls & Slow flight -3 months
Crosswind landings - 3 months
Crosswind landings to personal maximums -6 months


...so if you don't have an entry in your book in the last 3 months that has stalls and slow flight... go work on it.


Is that what you had in mind?
 
In response to question #1, Its good enough to get you started, but you should limit your flying to the basics until you can build on your skillset. I paid about $8000 to get my PPL and I have a lot of friends that are interested in flying until I tell them how much it costs to get a license and then they lose interest fast. I'm not sure I would want to see the entry point to flying increased. On top of the fact, I dont think that newly minted pilots are a huge factor in the accident database. It usually takes more experience to do something stupid. :)
 
Toobuilder said:
While I appreciate the responses so far, I realized that I steered us of the track a little bit. My intent was to get everyone?s thoughts on the state of training today. While we are ?told? that the PPL is a ?license to learn?, the fact is there is no requirement to do any better than when we passed our checkride.

So the points of discussion remain:

1. Is PPL and transition training good enough?
2. And while advanced training/ratings is a GREAT idea, is there an informal safety opportunity within our current framework? In other words, what can we do ON OUR NEXT FLIGHT to become more familiar with our airplanes?
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I am fairly a low hour pilot (500+) so my opinion may not deserve much merit but I believe the current PPL and training is adequate for what it was intended and allowed for. Perhaps what is need to be driven more into our heads is that the PPL is really a license to go and learn more and get profession. If one needs area of interest, IFR, Acro, etc. then they all need to recognize this and get adequate training before attempting such flying.

This has been my take since I got my Sport and then PPL and as such I make a point in flying with an instructor at least once every six months, first just to make sure I am not picking up wrong habits, secondly every instructor has a load of experience under their belt and this is one way to learn about them. I also try to fly at least once a week and if I am just joy flying, then I make it into a practice of some sort, whether is dead stick, stalls or what ever.
 
Phlyan Pan said:
My response would be, good enough for what?
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It's an open ended question to get people thinking and spark debate.

From my perspective, when I see students BEING TAUGHT (!) that the rudder pedals are for ground use only, or when I witness a pilot trying to pick up a low wing with aileron in a stall, I have to think that we are just asking for trouble in the pilot community. Even though Cherokees and 172's are almost impossible to fly badly enough to crash, it does happen. I'm not advocating more training, or a longer hours as a student, but I'm wondering exactly WHAT these instructors are doing with their time on the clock?

So, it's my opinion that Private pilots are not getting the quality of instuction that they should. And if that is indeed the case, is "transition training" held to the same standard?
 
a license to learn...what?

sure a PPL is a license to learn....but WHAT exactly do we need to know to expand our envelope & experience, and become safer?...and WHO do we now learn from?...other pilots? ....our CFI?.....

Shortly after getting my license, I left town to work, and returned a year later. Of course I wanted to rent a 172 and take a buddy for a ride, so I had to do a checkride with the FBO to use it. ( the owner, who had not instructed me)
My instructor had moved on to an airline job, and some of the other kids who were the new CFI's I wasn't comfortable with. ( very common I'm sure).

One possible source of furthering experience in relative safety;

The culture of gathering around the flying club table saturday early morning, and flight planning a group fly-out for a $100 burger sounds good, perhaps swapping pilot and navigator roles on the return.

Unfortunately, this rarely happens, guys schedules are such that they show up at the field at all hours, if at all, and most of us go up alone for some circuits, or a short non-planned jaunt to the next field for gas...none of which really does much more than warm the oil.

so my question is; how do we learn the judgement and cockpit management, in addition to the stick and rudder skills that are killing us?
 
Speaking as a 60-hour private pilot, I can tell you that while I feel competent with most day-to-day tasks, I'm well aware that there's a lot of unexplored territory as well. Spin/aerobatic training is definitely on my short list.

As far as spins go, I figure it's probably a lot like the way they teach skid recovery in driver's ed. When I finished that course, I could say "steer into the skid!" all day long, but I still went in the ditch the first time I encountered that situation unexpectedly. It was only after many Dukes of Hazzard-style dirt road runs that I had a good handle on that. Similarly, I can sit here and recite PARE all day long, but I don't want my first experience trying it out to be when things go to **** unexpectedly.

Bottom line, I think it comes down to that nebulous "aeronautical judgment" stuff. If you don't have the self-awareness to know what you don't know and limit yourself accordingly, you're relying more heavily on luck. And that's an unsturdy thing to support yourself with.
 
Phlyan Pan said:
...The only thing I can think of would be to start a list of things that should be practiced and a timeline of frequency that they should be practiced. Sort of like an unofficial currency on various maneuvers.

For instance:

Stalls & Slow flight -3 months
Crosswind landings - 3 months
Crosswind landings to personal maximums -6 months


...so if you don't have an entry in your book in the last 3 months that has stalls and slow flight... go work on it.


Is that what you had in mind?...
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That's pretty close. And this is where I?m looking for concurrence from pilots who are trained in instruction... Both as a relatively low time pilot and without advanced ratings, I?m hardly the person to be giving advice? I?m simply trying to take the idea of ?safety? from an ?everyone else? problem, to a ?me? problem. In other words, safety seminars and formal advanced training are all fine and well, but how can I grab safety by the throat and make an impact on my skillset right now?

Despite the number of hours I?ve logged, I do consider myself a ?good stick? ? at least within the context of how far I?ve come during my relationship with my current airplane. My skills were hard won and not without some risk taking and damage along the way, but I?m still looking to expand my personal envelope. So from that perspective, I like the your ?list of currency? - but would take it a little further; I think we should find something JUST BEYOND our comfort zone ? stalls, short field landings, outside snap rolls? whatever YOU need. Write it down. Work up to it. Master it.

It works for me...

Does anyone see a downside as a "universal" approach?
 
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What do we need to do to get better

wow, I really like the tone of this thread!!

What the Lancair guys did was develop a training sylabus and standardize training within their community (standardized the things being taught by their transition trainers and other instructors). From there they motivated their flyers to complete training by getting discounts on insurance or just enabling guys to get insurance at all. Many were being turned down by insurance companies, but if you got the training, you were insurable.

We are not yet at that sad state of affairs in the RV community, but the same thing that made them better, could make us better.

First of all, you have to know what you are trying to learn before you can learn it. That means having a good description of manuvers that will make you better if you practice them. Then you can study them first, then get an instructor and see what they look like, then go practice them.

That is the value of having a standardized curiculum. That is the risk managed way to extend your envelope. That is one of the things that the newly formed ad hoc safety committee hopes to develop - a standardized ciriculum.

The problem is, the only motivation we can provide to make pilots at large want to do all of that -learn, get instructed, practice, get better - is by upping the professionalism of our community. It has to become cool within our peer group to be better pilots. We have to talk about and expect ourselves to be better. That's why all the talk about upping your personal standards and questioning "cowboy" flying. (hmm, maybe we could start to issue merit badges to stick on your airplane as you progress through the skills, like RV Boy Scouts)

If we don't do it on our own, the FAA will provide the motivation - mandatory motivation, get better or else, or from their standpoint, it would just be easier to restrict the practice into oblivion, like they are trying to do with the warbird guys.

Gonna take some work men (and ladies)!!

PS - the original question - is PPL training good enough?? I would say compared to what the military does for training and the way we fly these airplanes (formation, acro, high speed, tail wheels, test flying etc etc) I'd say on average, no it's not. And the data (accident stats) bear that out. Most guys survive it by being good sticks and prudent risk takers and fast / determined learners, and good builders, and lucky --- but some don't.
 
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flyboy1963 said:
My instructor had moved on to an airline job, and some of the other kids who were the new CFI's I wasn't comfortable with. ( very common I'm sure).
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This is no excuse to skip training, especially for a newly minted private pilot. The kids working at the FBO as CFIs have gone through perhaps the most demanding checkride in the spectrum of pilot ratings, and are more than competent to help get pilots whatever extra/recurrent practice they need to be safe in the air.
 
Toobuilder said:
My skills were hard won and not without some risk taking and damage along the way, but I?m still looking to expand my personal envelope. So from that perspective, I like the your ?list of currency? - but would take it a little further; I think we should find something JUST BEYOND our comfort zone ? stalls, short field landings, outside snap rolls? whatever YOU need. Write it down. Work up to it. Master it.
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I guess it's just the difference between building new skills and maintaining the critical ones you already have. Neither is more important than the other. So maybe two lists is the answer. A list of skills you need to be constantly keeping up on to maintain proficiency, and a 2nd list of things that are still outside of your comfort zone that you need to work toward.

Neither of those lists is complete though, without a strategy of how to achieve them. Whether it's simply practicing something every so often or "x" number of hours with a CFI working on specific things.
 
OK, I'll give you that maintaining currency is important, but even if you do - you're only standing still, at best.

We can do better than simply "maintaining" - I think we need to move forward if we want to stop the same old accidents from killing us.
 
Michael,

There's no doubt that 5 or 10 hours of transition training will do little to improve overall pilot skill. As you suggested it will "merely allow him to operate a new airplane at the same relative skill level as before ? but with a new airplane type".

I also doubt that adding, aerobatic, spin and stall training will help either. Add to that the instrument rating and commercial pilot certificate.

What will help is simply learning to fly. Not just wiggling the controls like a monkey on a banana rush. A good pilot is "one" with his machine. That begins the moment he (or she) walks onto the ramp.

Find a good instructor who really knows how to fly, make sure he (or she) is not afraid to step on your toes and @#!*% you off a bit. Then generously compensate them.

Practice skills like one and two wheel touch n goes, flight with NO instruments (yep, cover everything up), and of course, lot's of cross wind landings. NEVER allow yourself to land when you are not stabilized and lined up with the center line. And EVERY landing should be a spot landing.

Oh yeah, and follow the FAR's!
 
Toobuilder said:
OK, I'll give you that maintaining currency is important, but even if you do - you're only standing still, at best.

We can do better than simply "maintaining" - I think we need to move forward if we want to stop the same old accidents from killing us.
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I agree 100%. Which is why I said that neither one is more important than the other. It's just as important to build your skillset as it is to focus on honing that which you already have.
 
What I am talking about is TRUE Stick and Rudder skills. Those found outside of the FAA's curriculum. IMO... forget the CFI's and their steps... Yes, that's necessary - get all your ratings... yada yada - but then move UP to the real world, save-ur-*** skill sets that are to be found BEYOND "roundout-flare-touchdown". C'mon!
 
At 60 hrs and two months of training I still had many unanswered questions

At the time(Fall 2008) I was taking off work 4 days for flight training and working 3 days. Drinking from a fire hose comes to mind.

Most training is probably from the PTS book since that is what we are finally tested on. I told my instructor that I will be hauling my family and I wanted to know more than just the minimum! Some of the extras I recieved were unintentional spin, simulated engine failure on climbout, winds greater than 10 kts, flight through rain, flight over a fog layer, fly into two class C's and 3 class D's several times.

Since my private ticket in Oct 2008 I try to get out and practice power on/off/accelerated stalls/landings once a month. Due to most of our money going into this build it is difficult at times. I try to fly into towered fields at least twice/yr. I get on with flight following on almost every flight.

I think my pp training was adequate for local flying in nice weather. As far as long cross country trips through the Appalachians, Rockies, marginal weather, 15+ kt winds, grass landings, high density traffic areas, refueling the plane, fuel stop planning, and flying in complicated airspaces it was lacking. Were expected to learn the rest on our own, ask others or pay for some more training. Some lack the discipline to learn on their own. Some don't want to ask questions afraid of being made fun of. Some just don't have the finances to pay someone, especially while building.

It seems like most pilots want to fly alone and not be bothered by newbie pilots. I have been fortunate to have a few experienced pilots take me up in their planes and answer alot of my questions. I feel that the RV-9A and -10 that I have flown are easier to fly than a 172. Now all of that information on those efis displays...that is a different story. It can be very distracting if you let it. I really just focused in on main requirements for those short flights...airspeed, altitude, heading, ball. I will learn some more when I get mine turned on, then more with my transition training before flying mine this fall. I will take it slow and not push the limits too far especially with family on board. I will try to take some long(4-8 hrs one way)cross countries with my local rv guys if they are up to it when I finish the test flying and before taking the family on any trips.

Low time pilots...never stop learning and ask lots of questions.

Experienced pilots...never stop teaching us the lessons you have already learned and mistakes you have made.

Together we can reduce our insurance rates, build many good friendships, keep the accidents/fatal crashes to a minimum.
 
None of us here get enough flight training. If you are not getting six month recurrent training and frequent no notice check rides, you're not adequately trained. Everyone gets rusty. Infrequency of flight contributes to it. Retraining is necessary to stay sharp and renew previous skills.

The best we can do under such circumstances is be careful and don't push the envelop. And go out somedays and just practice flying a decent traffic pattern and making a good landing. Be very self critical, evaluate every flight for its good stuff and bad stuff. It is the best we can do in this world of expensive fuel, limited money and the need to stay as sharp as possible.
 
apkp777 said:
I also doubt that adding, aerobatic, spin and stall training will help either.
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I think it would if for no other reason than it'll knock loose the timidness that many pilots display regarding learning to fly an airplane throughout the range of its performance envelope. The training atmosphere in my area seems to produce pilots that only learn to apply a narrow range of flying skill. In this training environment, I never see slips, rarely see power-off approaches, and when "emergency engine outs" are practiced, there a complete lack of control over the touchdown point. Massive patterns, dragged in, too fast approaches, and floating for 1,500'-2,000' down the runway are the norm here for students as well as licensed pilots who continue to rent their planes. Most pilots seem to stay within this narrow comfort zone, and I think the weak basic skills that Mike Seager notices are a result of this timidness combined with a lack of true interest in the art of flying. I sure hope the "art of flying" and basic stick-and-rudder skills is not becoming some old-fashioned, irrelevant concept. Aerobatic training can at least instill the confidence to break out of that narrow comfort and performance zone.
 
Eric, I have found this to be very true in those I have instructed, and some times even in my own flying.

On occasion, I have taken the controls from a student and told him or her to just forget about the book and holding altitude and heading and just fly the friggin plane. Yank and bank through different angles of bank, nose attitudes airpeeds etc. Feel the airplane. See what you can make it do! Then you will learn to control the beast when the winds get dicey or the runway short or maybe the prop comes to an abrupt halt.

It is surprising how few low time pilots ever get to do that and how it can get you off a skills plateau.

That is the kind of stuff that advanced training can help with and that will build better RV drivers. Hopefully we can make that kind of thing more available in the community, we have the assets, we just need to get it organized.

But we digress.
 
?None of us here get enough flight training. If you are not getting six month recurrent training and frequent no notice check rides, you're not adequately trained. Everyone gets rusty. Infrequency of flight contributes to it. Retraining is necessary to stay sharp and renew previous skills?.

I disagree with this statement almost completely, it might be true for some but not all.

?Be very self critical, evaluate every flight for its good stuff and bad stuff?.

This could not be more true! And I see it as a huge problem, many people don?t do it in any part of there lives including piloting. Recently I asked a fellow how his flight went he said we walked away and the plane can still be flown, I?ve heard that stuff a million times, never did care for it, I said I think we have different standards.

I self evaluate every part of each flight from take off, to landing and everything inbetween. How do we instill this in others?

As for training, not all CIF?s are equal, we found ourselves standing next to a CFI one day buy the FBO, he was watching his student make his first solo landing, upon touchdown the CFI said good job, a perfect three point landing, the student was flying a Cessna 150 and had made a three point landing! We walked away in disbelief, I know that student is not going to get the education I got from my CFI.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
I self evaluate every part of each flight from take off, to landing and everything inbetween. How do we instill this in others?
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About all we can do, Russ, is practice it, preach it and set the example. Some will take notice, others won't because they don't really care. It is an attitudinal problem, like how do you fix stupid.

The part you disagree with on recurrent training I agree with, it does not apply to everyone. I toss it out there because it does for some. If I don't fly for 6 weeks I'm behind the airplane for the first half hour of so. If I don't fly for 6 months, I am really behind the airplane. It is an uncomfortable feeling and it takes a bit of time to overcome. It is also a time when you don't want anything serious to go wrong.

The most comfortable feeling comes after a recurrent training session in a simulator. The problem with that scenario is it is not possible in general aviation. That's why it is so important to plug in the self evaluation discipline and other methods of staying sharp, like simply practicing take offs and landings, steep turns with no altitude change, aerobatics if thats your bag, etc. Regular flight, even very short flights with self evaluation, goes a long way toward staying sharp.

No one ever flies a perfect flight, there is always room for improvement. Thats the attitudinal part we need discipline ourselves to work on.
 
"Infrequency of flight contributes to it"

I overlooked this part, I do agree with this part of your first statement, and wonder why some people let there airplanes rot for months at a time then load up the family and head out over the cascades, we know a guy like this, he is not current buy any stretch and the airplane is garbage and getting worse with each passing winter. For me flying once a month would be way too little.

Lead buy example, I agree and I do, one good friend who I got hooked and got his PPL and a C-150 follows my example and I am proud of him, I know another guy that says he does not need to be a ?great hand? because he only flies on weekends, one bad weekend and he will wish he was a ?better hand?
 
Ok, staying ?sharp? with recurrent training and practice is well and good, but what if all you practice is the same, barely adequate maneuvers? How do you get any better? After all, even if you perform the current ?stall awareness? maneuver exactly to the checkride standards 300 times in a row, you are still only an expert at recovering from an ?almost? stall. How does that help you when you are trying to make a max performance approach to a challenging strip?

Is safety better served by loading yourself up with ?personal limitations? (which is the aeronautical equivalent of withdrawing to the fetal position), or actually mastering flying skills? Until our ?personal limits? are expanded to match the performance limits of our airplanes, we have work to do. Practicing the same old stuff is not going to get us there.
 
Toobuilder said:
Ok, staying ?sharp? with recurrent training and practice is well and good, but what if all you practice is the same, barely adequate maneuvers? How do you get any better? After all, even if you perform the current ?stall awareness? maneuver exactly to the checkride standards 300 times in a row, you are still only an expert at recovering from an ?almost? stall. How does that help you when you are trying to make a max performance approach to a challenging strip?

Is safety better served by loading yourself up with ?personal limitations? (which is the aeronautical equivalent of withdrawing to the fetal position), or actually mastering flying skills? Until our ?personal limits? are expanded to match the performance limits of our airplanes, we have work to do. Practicing the same old stuff is not going to get us there.
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How is flight training conducted in other countries? Say, England or Germany, for example. Are their standards different from ours? It might be interesting, possibly even useful, to compare notes, though I suppose their statistical databases may not be very large due to fewer pilots/fewer accidents.

I took 5 hours of akro training after I had a couple of hundred hours in little Cessnas. It was an eye-opener.
 
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