D

docrick

Active Member
I'm building the wings for the 9a right now. I'm going to install the Duckworks landing light and was a little surprised about the big price difference between the halogen 100W landing light and the HID light.

I know the HID light is brighter but to be honest every plane I've ever flown has had just regular run of the mill landing lights and I've never had a problem.

In the opinion of this group, is the HID light worth the big price over the halogen light?
 
Wow what a difference!

I see the planelights fits in the RV 10 and 7 wing I'll have to inquire about the 9 wing.

Those pictures were pretty impressive. Thanks.
 
Rick,

I went with the duckworth 100W halogen lights in my -9 wings for a few reasons:
1) They weigh less than the HID lights
2) They are easier to install, no transformer

Finally, and this is the main reason

3) I figure in a few years someone will come out with some realistically priced LED landing lights that draw less power, weigh even less, and are brighter than both halogen and HID's. When that happens, I'm going to switch mine over.
 
HID's

I should have mentioned that I have the Duckworks HID's in my wing tips and they are very impressive. The transformer mounts on the support bracket so it is no big deal.
When I land at night people always say, "man, I thought a 747 was landing".
I have no comparison to the halogens.

I am going to add the other HID's (mentioned above) to my wingtips which they say can wigwag once warmed up. How cool would that be. Four HID's coming at you!
 
N941WR said:
Rick,

3) I figure in a few years someone will come out with some realistically priced LED landing lights that draw less power, weigh even less, and are brighter than both halogen and HID's. When that happens, I'm going to switch mine over.
Click to expand...

So, what do you consider to be a realistic price for and LED landing light? Please provide an explanation for the price that you think is realistic.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO AeroLEDs LLC
http://www.aeroleds.com
LED Landing/Taxi/Recognition Lights, position lights, and strobes
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
So, what do you consider to be a realistic price for and LED landing light? Please provide an explanation for the price that you think is realistic.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO AeroLEDs LLC
http://www.aeroleds.com
LED Landing/Taxi/Recognition Lights, position lights, and strobes
Click to expand...

Dean,

I'm a cheap SOB so I figure they will eventually come down to around $50 a wing. Like I said, I have lights in my wings so I can wait for that to happen.

I suspect (hope) that once the car manufactures start using LED's head lights we will see more options for our landing lights.
 
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N941WR said:
Dean,

I'm a cheap SOB so I figure they will eventually come down to around $50 a wing. Like I said, I have lights in my wings so I can wait for that to happen.

I suspect (hope) that once the car manufactures start using LED's head lights we will see more options for out landing lights.
Click to expand...

$50 sounds like my kinda price!!
 
danielhv said:
$50 sounds like my kinda price!!
Click to expand...

Then you have a very long wait ahead of you. The LEDs alone cost more than that for a PAR36 replacement.

Halogen bulbs are blown glass and Tungsten. That make them very inexpensive. LEDs are semiconductor devices that have to be kept cool and driven properly by an electronic circuit.

Halogen bulbs last at best 100 hours. LEDs when done right will last 50,000 hours and put out 5 times as much light for the same power as a halogen bulb.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO AeroLEDs LLC
http://www.aeroleds.com
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
Then you have a very long wait ahead of you. The LEDs alone cost more than that for a PAR36 replacement.

Halogen bulbs are blown glass and Tungsten. That make them very inexpensive. LEDs are semiconductor devices that have to be kept cool and driven properly by an electronic circuit.

Halogen bulbs last at best 100 hours. LEDs when done right will last 50,000 hours and put out 5 times as much light for the same power as a halogen bulb.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO AeroLEDs LLC
http://www.aeroleds.com
Click to expand...

Point taken - however, "long wait" may be rather subjective.

LEDs are most certainly semiconductor devices, and as such have seen similar improvements to CPUs in their improvement with time (appear to follow "Moore's Law"). Doubling in capability for the same cost each 18 months, I suspect it will not really be that long until they are both cheaper and brighter than Halogen. Since I only use my landing lights for straight in or instrument approaches, my halogen bulbs may well last until there is a plug-in replacement...

:D
 
breister said:
Point taken - however, "long wait" may be rather subjective.

LEDs are most certainly semiconductor devices, and as such have seen similar improvements to CPUs in their improvement with time (appear to follow "Moore's Law"). Doubling in capability for the same cost each 18 months, I suspect it will not really be that long until they are both cheaper and brighter than Halogen. Since I only use my landing lights for straight in or instrument approaches, my halogen bulbs may well last until there is a plug-in replacement...

:D
Click to expand...

Even if the LEDs were free, nobody could build a PAR36 replacement for $50, much less sell it for that... the optics, electronics, and heatsink all would exceed that cost. With inflation, by the time LEDs get to under $1 each, the cost of raw aluminum and other materials will offset the cost reduction realized in the LEDs themselves...

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
You're right Dean, but.....

...I was really excited about an LED replacement for my 100 watt landing light until I found out they were almost $600 :eek: with a small discount for being at the big show. I'll have to stick with weaker bulbs until this gets a lot more reasonable...... :(
Think about it, 1/3 the price of a Dynon for a light bulb.....!
 
But back on topic....

If you fly at night a lot, get HID's if not, stick with the incandescent... We put TWO $500 HID lights in our Cessna, but we fly at night quite a bit. Worth every penny.
 
RVadmirer said:
...I was really excited about an LED replacement for my 100 watt landing light until I found out they were almost $600 :eek: with a small discount for being at the big show. I'll have to stick with weaker bulbs until this gets a lot more reasonable...... :(
Think about it, 1/3 the price of a Dynon for a light bulb.....!
Click to expand...

$600??? Our AeroSUN 1600 unit is $276 per light, while the AeroSUNLite is $191 per light right now.

Each of these lights will last as long as 500 halogen bulbs (average halogen life of 100 hours), which means that you can run them in Wig-Wag mode all the time when you fly day and night for better safety. Most pilots don't run their halogens during the day because they suck down too much power and burn out too fast. Even in broad daylight, the LEDs in wig-wag mode are visible head on several miles away, which means you are easier to spot for other pilots...

LED lights offer a different paradigm for light usage, namely daytime anticollision in addition to serving as night time landing lights.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Wig Wag

I chose the Halogen because I wanted the Wig Wag. That feature is not advised with the HID's. Furthermore, The Aero-Electric connection book discusses how to make your halogens last longer by using a filament warming circuit. It basically supplies a couple of volts as long as the main bus is on. Not enough to make them light up, but perhaps a dull red glow. This gets the filaments warm and prevents the shock of high current induced when 12 volts is applied to a cold filament. (Cold filament resistance is much lower than a warm filament.)

I don't plan to fly much at night. Wig Wag aids visibility in the daytime too.
 
Landing lights

docrick said:
I'm building the wings for the 9a right now. I'm going to install the Duckworks landing light and was a little surprised about the big price difference between the halogen 100W landing light and the HID light.

I know the HID light is brighter but to be honest every plane I've ever flown has had just regular run of the mill landing lights and I've never had a problem.

In the opinion of this group, is the HID light worth the big price over the halogen light?
Click to expand...

As opinions go - I have mine, but, I chose the duckworks lights for both taxi and landing because of the light color???? I don't see the reflected light from the HID's as well as I can see the reflected light from the 100 watt "regulars". Trying to explaing it better, I've ridden in cars that have the HID headlights and I can see better with standard headlights when driving at night.
 
Good Landing Lights

4 landing lights on 1 plane? Thats a good idea. Imagine 2 lights on for landing and 2 flashing. I'll have to wear sunglasses and keep my head down. Now when we can buy long life and low power leds it will be the only way to go. One last thing though - Beam me up Scotty!
 
vmirv8bldr said:
I chose the Halogen because I wanted the Wig Wag. That feature is not advised with the HID's. Furthermore, The Aero-Electric connection book discusses how to make your halogens last longer by using a filament warming circuit. It basically supplies a couple of volts as long as the main bus is on. Not enough to make them light up, but perhaps a dull red glow. This gets the filaments warm and prevents the shock of high current induced when 12 volts is applied to a cold filament. (Cold filament resistance is much lower than a warm filament.)

I don't plan to fly much at night. Wig Wag aids visibility in the daytime too.
Click to expand...

That is where LEDs have an advantage. In wig-wag mode the LEDs go full-on to full-off instantly, and wig-wag mode actually doubles the life of the LEDs because they are only on 1/2 of the time. The AeroSUN lights have built-in wig-wag controllers, so there is no need for a separate box (with associated cost).

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
Our AeroSUN 1600 unit is $276 per light, while the AeroSUNLite is $191 per light right now.
Click to expand...
Dean,

For those prices I can stock a LOT of spare bulbs.

With a 184 hours on my -9 in the last year, I've yet to replace a bulb.

I do not run wig-wags, so other than landing and take offs, the lights are off most of the time and that is fine with me.

I'm not trashing your product as I am a fan of LED's and as I said, I hope to install them at some point in the future...

But spending that much money on these lights is kind of like those people who go out and buy Hybred vehicle to save money, not realizing the payback on them is typically 10 years or more.
 
N941WR said:
Dean,

For those prices I can stock a LOT of spare bulbs.

With a 184 hours on my -9 in the last year, I've yet to replace a bulb.

I do not run wig-wags, so other than landing and take offs, the lights are off most of the time and that is fine with me.

I'm not trashing your product as I am a fan of LED's and as I said, I hope to install them at some point in the future...

But spending that much money on these lights is kind of like those people who go out and buy Hybred vehicle to save money, not realizing the payback on them is typically 10 years or more.
Click to expand...

The Duckworks PAR36 Halogen kit is $115. The wig-wag controller they sell is $175. So, a pair of these lights with the wig-wag controlller will cost you $405 for an RV installation.

A pair of AeroSUN 1600s which produce as much light as the PAR36 halogens on 1/4 as much current draw and INCLUDE the wig-wag controller built into the lights will cost you $510.

So the cost difference is just $105, which you will end up paying the first time you replace those halogens unless you really baby them. The LEDs will outlast your airframe and you can run them all the time.

I don't see how our pricing is so out of line with the existing products...

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
apples and oranges...

N941WR said:
Dean,
I do not run wig-wags, so other than landing and take offs, the lights are off most of the time and that is fine with me.

I'm not trashing your product as I am a fan of LED's and as I said, I hope to install them at some point in the future...

But spending that much money on these lights is kind of like those people who go out and buy Hybred vehicle to save money, not realizing the payback on them is typically 10 years or more.
Click to expand...

Bill, I agree that paybacks for Hybrids take a long time for the same basic transportation needs, but with LED's you are getting more for your money in brighter and better lighting and hopefully longivity. I will pay more for a better safety margin.
Just my 2 cents...
 
Question for Dean

Dean,
Will your lights work with the Vertical Power VP-200 system. (The VP has a built in wig-wag system)
Thanks
 
flytoboat said:
Dean,
Will your lights work with the Vertical Power VP-200 system. (The VP has a built in wig-wag system)
Thanks
Click to expand...

I don't know, and can't say without testing, but really there is no reason to use an external wig-wag controller with our lights. All you need is wire and switches to select constant on or wig wag modes.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Don't forget Duckworks has low cost HID's also

Don't forget Duckworks has low cost HID's also. They are still more than the halogen, but still a lot cheaper than HID's were when they first came out.

Also, the cost of replacing a 100W halogen is not $100, it is more like $20.

Duckworks also has HID replacement lights to fit the wingtip installations. They are the MR-16 lights that you can find on the 'Upgrades' page.
 
Need a reason?

Dean_aeroleds said:
I don't know, and can't say without testing, but really there is no reason to use an external wig-wag controller with our lights. All you need is wire and switches to select constant on or wig wag modes.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
Click to expand...

Dean,
VP will automatically turn on/off lights, wig-wag, fuel pumps, etc. according to the "mode" of flight you are in without the extra wire, switches and fuses/cb. I do plan on using the VP system and want all accessories to be controlled by it as intended.
http://www.verticalpower.com/
Thanks,
 
flytoboat said:
Dean,
VP will automatically turn on/off lights, wig-wag, fuel pumps, etc. according to the "mode" of flight you are in without the extra wire, switches and fuses/cb. I do plan on using the VP system and want all accessories to be controlled by it as intended.
http://www.verticalpower.com/
Thanks,
Click to expand...

If what VP is doing is turning on/off power, then it can be used to control the mode of the lights. The wig-wag would still be controlled by the lights themselves, but the VP system could control the power to the steady on and wig-way power inputs for our lights.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Ahh - the light comes on

Dean_aeroleds said:
If what VP is doing is turning on/off power, then it can be used to control the mode of the lights. The wig-wag would still be controlled by the lights themselves, but the VP system could control the power to the steady on and wig-way power inputs for our lights.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
Click to expand...

(Pun intended) Thanks for your answer.
 
I have to add a little bit to what Dean has already said. I brewed up my own LED landing/taxi lights and have been using them for a while now. Mine are mounted in the nosebowl so wig-wag isn't really a meaningful option. But what Dean has mentioned about changing the paradigm concerning landing lights is right on the money. We typically don't use our landing lights as anti-collision lights simply because they burn out too quickly. LED's change this picture entirely. My LED taxi light is on ALL THE TIME.

How effective is it, you ask? Well, let's start with the facts. The taxi light is a simple light using 3 x 3W LED elements. My "landing light" configuration is just double this, the taxi light plus an additional 3 x 3W LED elements. In fact these LED's aren't running at anything close to 3W but rather have been grossly derated to ensure they don't encounter heat stress in the engine cowling, so I'm estimating their actual dissipation is closer to 2W each.

Now just how visible are they? As an anti-collision light I have to think they're well worth their cost. I've had several aircraft comment on their visibility, but so far only one encounter where I've been able to accurately measure the distance at which these lights were reported to be clearly visible. A fellow EAA Chapter member approached our airport from the southeast while I was approaching from the northwest with a setting sun behind me. As we both called in on the MF he indicated he wasn't sure where I was, didn't have visual contact. At that point I turned on my landing light and he immediately confirmed visual contact. The distance between our aircraft was 8.25 statute miles. His comment when we chatted on the ground afterward was, "Holy cr@p that thing's bright. You looked like a star in the sky."

For whatever extra dollars an LED landing light might cost, you're getting a lot of added benefit in anti-collision lighting. I firmly believe the benefit of being able to run the LED landing light all the time is worth far more than the cost delta associated with purchasing the LED's. Of course, your mileage may vary... ;-)
 
Canadian_JOY said:
I have to add a little bit to what Dean has already said. I brewed up my own LED landing/taxi lights and have been using them for a while now. Mine are mounted in the nosebowl so wig-wag isn't really a meaningful option. But what Dean has mentioned about changing the paradigm concerning landing lights is right on the money. We typically don't use our landing lights as anti-collision lights simply because they burn out too quickly. LED's change this picture entirely. My LED taxi light is on ALL THE TIME.

How effective is it, you ask? Well, let's start with the facts. The taxi light is a simple light using 3 x 3W LED elements. My "landing light" configuration is just double this, the taxi light plus an additional 3 x 3W LED elements. In fact these LED's aren't running at anything close to 3W but rather have been grossly derated to ensure they don't encounter heat stress in the engine cowling, so I'm estimating their actual dissipation is closer to 2W each.

Now just how visible are they? As an anti-collision light I have to think they're well worth their cost. I've had several aircraft comment on their visibility, but so far only one encounter where I've been able to accurately measure the distance at which these lights were reported to be clearly visible. A fellow EAA Chapter member approached our airport from the southeast while I was approaching from the northwest with a setting sun behind me. As we both called in on the MF he indicated he wasn't sure where I was, didn't have visual contact. At that point I turned on my landing light and he immediately confirmed visual contact. The distance between our aircraft was 8.25 statute miles. His comment when we chatted on the ground afterward was, "Holy cr@p that thing's bright. You looked like a star in the sky."

For whatever extra dollars an LED landing light might cost, you're getting a lot of added benefit in anti-collision lighting. I firmly believe the benefit of being able to run the LED landing light all the time is worth far more than the cost delta associated with purchasing the LED's. Of course, your mileage may vary... ;-)
Click to expand...
Do you have pictures of your home brewed led landing lights? also, Which leds did you use?
 
I use my HID landing light as an anti collision light as well. Their lifespan is awesome so it on whenever the engine is running. 5 years now with no problems.
 
philcam said:
Dean,

What about running the LED's on wigwag all the time? How much will that shorten the life of the LEDs and/or the flasher?
Click to expand...

Running in wig-wag mode actually doubles the life of the LEDs because they are only on half the time. LED life is not affected by on/off power cycling the way that all other lighting technologies are. It is only the amount of time that they are on and operating that matters. The "flasher" is simply a built in circuit that controls when the LEDs are on or off and it is a solid state so it doesn't have a wear-out mechanism like a relay does.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO AeroLEDs LLC
 
Planelights

Steve here from Planelights:

I have waited trying to become a paying advertiser before answering questions with no luck. So if anybody can get ahold of Doug, please do I would love to be a paying sponsor.

Now to the lights:

Yes the MR16 HID lights will work on the RV9 wingtips. Any of the new RV style wingtips with lights will work. With that said, if you fly at night, buy the Duckworks PAR36 kit with HID. It will work much better and project much farther. If you don't do alot of night flying the Vans tip lights(with HID's) work great. As recognition lights the tips are wonderfull.

With the current technology levels, you can't beat HID technology for lumens per $$$$. They can be flashed, they are brighter, and they pull less power than any other system.

One of the biggest questions we get it "what about the noise". We just finshed this:

http://www.planelights.com/index.php?id=706

We are currently working with the focused LED US patent holder. When the market and technology is ready we will have a full line of aircraft LED's, both landing and nav lights.

Thanks
Steve
www.planelights.com
 
Steve, thanks for the info!

Quick questions about your lights... what's the diameter of the reflector on those 50W lights you show on your RV page (http://www.planelights.com/index.php?id=661)? Will they fit in the tip cutout? I'm not doing duckworks style lights.

Second, what kind of connectors come off the ballast? It looks to me like the black connectors (blue and red wires) mate with the lamp, and so the big pink connector is the power input? Do you provide mating connectors for that?
 
RVadmirer said:
.. I'll have to stick with weaker bulbs until this gets a lot more reasonable...... :(
Click to expand...
Weaker bulbs? LEDs currently have no where near the light output of HIDs or even Halogens. Their advantage is long life, low power consumption and minimal heat generation. When purchasing LEDs, check the output lumens against the equivalent HIDs and Halogens.
 
Welcome !!!!

Steve, welcome aboard.

Glad to see vendors participating here.

Pretty sure Doug will see your request;)
 
lights

Thanks guys.

KDBM,

The reflectors in the wingtip kit is about 2" wide. It is an MR16 bulb that will fit in the new RV wingtips. When we installed the test kit in the aircraft in the pictures we ovaled out the mounting whole. Then we bottom out the adjusters to allow it to point almost forward. I would recommend this even if you stick with the halogen lights. It allows you to see in front of the aircraft, rather than out both sides.

See here:
http://www.planelights.com/index.php?id=685

Everything is included in the kit, ballast, bulb and a wiring pigtail to tie into your aircraft.

I received an email asking about the weight. I will put in on the website, but untill I can do it. The 50w tip systems wiegh 14 ounces.

Thanks
Steve
 
Dean,

How difficult would it be to make a small LED light w/ reflector that can be encased in the empennage fairing w/ a clear cover? Two lights, one on each side would be aimed at the VS to highlight it so traffic from the side would see your VS in flight when they couldn't see your wig wagging landing/taxi lights.

I suspect you wouldn't need a lot of power, use small wires, etc. just to illuminate the VS.

Thoughts?
 
N941WR said:
Dean,

How difficult would it be to make a small LED light w/ reflector that can be encased in the empennage fairing w/ a clear cover? Two lights, one on each side would be aimed at the VS to highlight it so traffic from the side would see your VS in flight when they couldn't see your wig wagging landing/taxi lights.

I suspect you wouldn't need a lot of power, use small wires, etc. just to illuminate the VS.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Bill,

You are asking for a logo-light similar to what Boeing put on their airplanes for lighting up the airline tail logos. While you could use the AeroSUNLite to do that, we don't have a product specifically designed for lighting the vertical stab. I'll give that some thought.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDS LLC
 
a single luxeon 3 or K2 would do the job. You can buy snap-on reflectors and lenses from mouser that work with the stars. It'd be pretty trivial to make work, hardest part would be mounting it in the fairing and glassing it in with a clear cover of some kind.


If you want an idea of how it'd look, go grab a MagLite LED 2 AA. (like this: http://www.maglite.com/AA_Cell_LED.asp). The "3W LED" in those is a luxeon 3. That'll give you a pretty good idea of what it'd be like.
 
Dean,
Yes, a logo light is exactly what I was thinking of.

Check out the reflectors used on the position lights I installed.

They are nothing more than a chromed piece of plastic that does a great job of light dispersion.

Maybe that?s an idea you can use.
 
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