[amed]

I've held an A&P license for nearly 15 years and am always amazed as to how little people know about us.
Most people seem to think that if you hold the coveted A&P license, you have what equates to a doctorate degree in aircraft maintenance and that every word you speak should be entered in the Bible of Aviation wisdom. Well, nothing could be further from the truth. Think about it. Who issues the license? The Federal Government! We all know enough about the Govt. to know that if they issue it, it can't be too difficult to attain. The fact is, taking the tests for an A&P is the "easy" part. Getting the authorization slips needed to take the test is a whole different story.
There are basically only two ways to qualify to get these authorizations.
1. Attend an A&P school.
2. Show that you have 30 months of experience doing airframe and powerplant maintenance, or 18 months for airframe alone. Ditto for the powerplant.
The majority of A&P schools are little more than a waste of time and money. They teach you how to safety wire, basic sheet metal and a lot of theory. Don't get me wrong, some schools, (namely, the programs associated with an accredited college) are very good.
The 30 / 18 month deal almost exclusively applies to those with military experience. There aren't too many piston engines in the military these days, so what does this tell you?
So, you ask, "If these guys don't learn in school, where do they learn?" Well, they learn from experience. Just like a pilot. The only problem is that very little if any of this experience is ever documented.
"So how do I know if my A&P mechanic is any good?" you ask.
Good question!
As mechanics, we all have different ideas on how do to things. Many of them are good and some of them are down right wrong! So how do you know who is wrong and who is right? Personally, if someone tells me, "Those guys at Lycoming (or Continental or Van's ect.) don't know what they are talking about!" Then I politely dismiss myself and walk away. The manufacturers DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! No one and I mean NO ONE knows more about the product than the folks who make it! Especially in the case of aircraft parts and components. It's their business to know. It's safe to say that the folks at Lycoming or Van's have every piece of information from every incident involving their equipment in the whole world! I would trust their data more so than old Bubba's at Bumble Bee Airpark in Nowheresville, USA! Wouldn't you?
A good mechanic will ALWAYS have several years of experience under his belt. How many old guys do you know who are just as ignorant as the day they were born? Well, there are a few, but most of them are much wiser than the rest of us. With reguards to A/C maint. this theory isn't 100%, but it's as close as your going to get in this business. Your friendly neighborhood airline will be learning this lesson soon if they continue to contract out maintenance, and lay off their experience. (Differen't story for a different time.)
Another good idea is to ask yourself, "Would I fly with this guy?" Granted, many A&Ps don't hold a Pilot's license, but after a few minutes of conversation, you can usually tell if this guy is safety minded or not. If you wouldn't feel safe in the cockpit with him, don't let him work on your airplane!
Finding a mechanic is like finding a doctor. Ask around. Get some feedback from others who have used him. Use common sense. If a mechanic tells you something that doesn't make sense, get a second opinion.
And for crying out loud, if an A&P / IA tells you that it's ok to soak your hands in MEK, DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!

 

[Mel]

I got my A&P in 1972 and all of my qualifying experience was from the "field". I have to agree that for the most part, the A&P schools "teach the test." That's not to say that just because a mechanic went to school, he's not competent. There are many mechanics that went to school, got the ticket, and then got the experience. The most important thing in looking for an A&P to do work or the annual condition inspection on a homebuilt is to make sure that he is familiar with homebuilts. Many A&Ps just don't want to mess with them.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

My favorite A&P mechanic

My favorite mechanic Joe Patroni, Chief mechanic for Trans Global Airlines,

as played by George Kennedy in 1970's movie "Airport".

In this scene Joe (with stub cigar in one corner of his mouth) and a Line Capt. are trying to clear a B707 stuck on a snow covered runway so the stricken inbound plane can land. This is the only runway available and the tow tug can't do it, so they need MORE POWER, ITS THEIR ONLY HOPE!

Joe Patroni: You chickened out on me! I told you I wanted all the power you got!
Capt. Benson: Full throttle and this plane would be standing on its nose.
Joe Patroni: You might fly these things but I take them apart and put them back together again. If you had any guts we'd be on the runway by now.
Capt. Benson: You felt it vibrating? Another 10 seconds and we'd have had structural damage.
Joe Patroni: Who do ya think you're talking to, some kid that fixes bicycles? I know every inch of the 707! Take the wings off this and you could use it as a TANK! This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.​

Love the last line.

Now for real A&P's. When I was CFI'ing at a flight school there was a healthy animosity of pilots, instructors and students, by the mechanics. I was cool with the mechanics because I went into the hanger, expressed interest and aptitude in aircraft maintenance and repair. I appreciated their headaches, including some pilots who didn't have a clue. This is not really as much the case with the experimental pilot crowd, but the GA pilot population is not the same. Some of the things the renter pilot's wrote up where ......... like this:

Pilot write up: "autopilot does not work"
Maintenance action: "there is no autopilot installed in this plane"

Pilot write up: "dead bugs on nose strut"
Maintenance action: "bugs brought back to life"

Pilots who have never worked on an aircraft don't realized how hard it's to work on planes; they would appreciate A&P's more if they had to do maintenance. Now that' my PRO A&P comments.

Then there was this A&P that did an oil change on my friend's Grumman Tiger. This A&P screwed the oil drain plug in one or two turns, just enough for my friend pick-up his plane, get to the runway, do a run-up, start takeoff and feel the engine RPM lag right before rotation with Oil P. dropping to nothing. Aborting, he taxied back to see a large pool of oil in the run up area! NICE. Engine overhaul followed.

 

[Joey]

...every word you speak should be entered in the Bible of Aviation wisdom. Well, nothing could be further from the truth.

Hey, speak for yourself, buddy.

 

[Dgamble]

The way I look at it, the A&P cert. is the same as that brand new shiny PSEL cert: it's a ticket to learn. The programs are very similar: I learned a lot of theory and got a few hours of practical experience, much of it shallow and useless (touch & goes come immediately to mind) in my Private training, but 600 hours later I still learn something on nearly every flight.

The A&P school is exactly as described. I just finished a 10 week class in sheet metal, and "learned" how to rivet, but I didn't really learn how to rivet until I spent a few evenings performing contortions worthy of an exotic dancer inside the upside down canoe of an RV-9A under construction. Without the school experience that allowed me to become comfortable with the idea of riveting in general, though, I don't think I would have been much help with the RV. When I was up in there bucking and the owner/builder was driving, I was able to determine whether a rivet was set correctly because I knew the theory/standards that I had learned in school. This is, of course, a very small example, and I think I could have comprehended "1.5 times the shank diameter" had I read it independently, but in the grand scope of things there are zillions of little details like that in an A&P's life.

I got my A&P in 1972 and all of my qualifying experience was from the "field". I have to agree that for the most part, the A&P schools "teach the test." That's not to say that just because a mechanic went to school, he's not competent. There are many mechanics that went to school, got the ticket, and then got the experience. The most important thing in looking for an A&P to do work or the annual condition inspection on a homebuilt is to make sure that he is familiar with homebuilts. Many A&Ps just don't want to mess with them.

 

[brianwallis]

stepping up

I believe there is a third way to get your ticket... and that is with well documented hrs... I dont know anyone who would deny someone a permission slip to take their A&P if they built a SB kit in two years (ish)to include building the engine at the factory like the xp's... and had everything well documented... I'm man enought to step up to the plate and admit to my customers if I dont know what I'm doing... that has actually gotten me a few more customers!! I recieved my experience working on Blackhawk helicopters and when I switched to being a civ and doing fixed wing work.... everything was different!!!
just my .02
Brian Wallis
AP/IA
( That would mean whoever built a SB kit knows a lot more in general about aircraft maintenance than these kids I see "graduating" from these quicky AP schools) darn skippy!

 

[thallock]

Brian,

I'm pretty sure that this has been looked into before, and the regs say something like "under the supervision". So the time spent building a slow build cannot be applied towards the 30 months of experience. Of course, I'm just a software weenie, so what do I know.

Tracy.

 

[jchang10]

Confirmation of builders getting A&P rating?

Can anyone confirm that this is possible? I guess the ultimate source is the local FSDO office, but was curious what others have heard or found out about getting an A&P after doing an RV slow build.

I gather to take the A&P test, it requires 3000 hours of documented practical experience, if you do not go thru a school. Does anyone know whether building an RV slowbuild qualifies for the practical experience requirement?

One problem may be that this experience is not signed off by another A&P?!

thanks for the input!

Jae

 

[Rick6a]

Can anyone confirm that this is possible? I guess the ultimate source is the local FSDO office, but was curious what others have heard or found out about getting an A&P after doing an RV slow build.

I gather to take the A&P test, it requires 3000 hours of documented practical experience, if you do not go thru a school. Does anyone know whether building an RV slowbuild qualifies for the practical experience requirement?

One problem may be that this experience is not signed off by another A&P?!

thanks for the input!

Jae

My guess is that it would qualify. I say that because as a production worker at McDonnell-Douglas, some of us were occasionally encouraged through various junior college programs sponsored by the corporation and the union to pursue the A&P license based upon the wide range of sheet metal experiences that were common to our jobs. Time spent on the factory floor was for some (in key classifications) considered gold for the practical experience aspect of the airframe phase of the certificate. Building a personal airplane certainly seems to me at least, a logical extension of that philosophy.

 

[Joey]

It is possible to use experience gained by building an experimental to obtain an A&P certificate.

Order 8300.10 - Airworthiness Inspector's Handbook clarifies the experience requirements for the certificate. It states:

B. Experience gained from the military, work as an airframe or powerplant mechanic or work on an experimental amateur-built aircraft will be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements.

The handbook also goes into more detail about the thirty months of practical experience. I often encounter people that seem to think that working five to ten hours a week in a shop for thirty months qualifies them to test for the A&P, since 14CFR 65.77 doesn't specifically say otherwise. They are mistaken.

 

[bsacks05]

There is a lot more to an A&P education than can be fullfilled by building your own plane. I am glad I got my A&P before I started my RV9. I looked at it as a post graduate project. I got to apply what I learned and had a good handle on how and why things work.
Of course I learned much by building but there is much more to an A&P education than can be learned through building an RV.
If building time can be applied to a mechanics license, that's great. But there will be a bunch more studyin' and learnin' to be done in order to pass the written and practical exams.
I teach aircraft sheet metal at a tech college where we also have a A&P program. The best students are the ones who are consciencious and take pride in a job well done. They have a genuine interest in aviation and will continue to learn and become great mechanics. The students who are not serious will wash out of the program or end up losing jobs soon after their abilities and attitude become apparent in the real world. As has been oft stated, "It is a license to learn" and you can apply that saying to any profession.
A&P school was, by far, the best learning experience of my life. Thanks National Aviation Academy of Clearwater, Florida!

P.S: Weighed my -9 today and she came in at a sexy 1021 lbs.

 

[pat]

A&P and proud of it.

Been an A&P for 15 years, I was able to take the test by proving to the local FSDO that I had completed 4,000 hours of combined airframe and powerplant experience documented by a supervising IA. Although the regs say one thing the FSDO has the final word and I actually had to take the IA to the office and speak to the agent to verify hours. They(FAA) don't like to sign off on experience affidavids to take the exams because they feel its too easy to misrepresent experience. Unlike other posters, I dont mind taking questions and actually enjoy the diagnostics involved with problem solving. I also dont believe the time building your RV can be documented unless it was supervised by an A&P or IA. But what does it matter, you will have the repairman cert when you finish it.

 

[Joey]

I also dont believe the time building your RV can be documented unless it was supervised by an A&P or IA.

There is no requirement that the experience be supervised by an A&P or IA.

 

[pat]

FSDO experience

maybe supervised is the wrong term, all I can tell you is my experience a few years ago. FSDO looked at not just time but quality of experience. They wanted to know if I was sweeping shop floors and calling it time or was the A&P or IA actually training/teaching me something. BTW if your working on planes and documenting time then I say go for it. All you have to do is pass the oral and practical. Just be sure to know about tube and fabric, turbines, sheetmetal, FI and carb engines, welding, rigging, electrical, pitot/static system, hydraulics, pressurization, O2, ect....

 

[amed]

I believe there is a third way to get your ticket... and that is with well documented hrs... I dont know anyone who would deny someone a permission slip to take their A&P if they built a SB kit in two years (ish)to include building the engine at the factory like the xp's... and had everything well documented... I'm man enought to step up to the plate and admit to my customers if I dont know what I'm doing... that has actually gotten me a few more customers!! I recieved my experience working on Blackhawk helicopters and when I switched to being a civ and doing fixed wing work.... everything was different!!!
just my .02
Brian Wallis
AP/IA
( That would mean whoever built a SB kit knows a lot more in general about aircraft maintenance than these kids I see "graduating" from these quicky AP schools) darn skippy!

Hey Brian, I gained my experience for my tickets working on Army Helicopters as well! (Hueys) I think the Military is a great place to start. Even though when you leave and move to the 'real world', you quickly learn that all you really know how to do is read a manual, replace some parts and safety wire! (I'm exaggerating a bit of course) The Military teaches you how to pay attention to detail and work safely around aircraft.

 

[amed]

I got my A&P in 1972 and all of my qualifying experience was from the "field". I have to agree that for the most part, the A&P schools "teach the test." That's not to say that just because a mechanic went to school, he's not competent. There are many mechanics that went to school, got the ticket, and then got the experience. The most important thing in looking for an A&P to do work or the annual condition inspection on a homebuilt is to make sure that he is familiar with homebuilts. Many A&Ps just don't want to mess with them.

I couldn't agree with you more Mel. Experience is the key!

 

[amed]

Can anyone confirm that this is possible? I guess the ultimate source is the local FSDO office, but was curious what others have heard or found out about getting an A&P after doing an RV slow build.

I gather to take the A&P test, it requires 3000 hours of documented practical experience, if you do not go thru a school. Does anyone know whether building an RV slowbuild qualifies for the practical experience requirement?

One problem may be that this experience is not signed off by another A&P?!

thanks for the input!

Jae

I think the key issue here is if you were under supervision of an A&P. It has been my experience however, that EVERYTHING is subjective and it all depends on the FAA Inspector giving you your tickets. When dealing with the Government, the words I live by are, "If you get an answer you don't like, ask someone else!"

 

[amed]

Bruce, I couldn't agree more! I have worked with several A&P mechanics who have no interest in aviation at all (When I worked for the Airline), while some of them are good mechanics, the absolute best are the ones who love airplane noise!!! and yes, I do love airplane noise!

 

[amed]

I agree with you on every point! The reason I wrote this is because on countless occations, when an aircraft owner finds out I'm an A&P, he wants me to do some work on his (or her) airplane. These people don't know me from Adam! and while I am (usually) more than qualified, there are a lot of guys out there who aren't! What I'm trying to do is help people avoid making a mistake before it's too late... In other words, know your mechanic! Bad ones give you and I a bad name! and they are out there!

 

[amed]

yes you can buy anything these days, however the truth about A&P's is the truth about people. some are good and some are bad. some doctors stink, some lawyers suck and some cops are crooked, welcome to the real world, yes you are correct, consider the source but doesnt that go without saying...what really is the purpose of this post? yes i know some people are faking it but the longer they do it the better they'll get at it.
i would say that a technical college education is one of the few where when you get to the job you have actually seen and worked with the product. unlike many other educations, where all they have after 4 years is a slip.
when i got my A&P in 89 we did all the stuff the FAA reqired and then some. overhauled P&W r985(internally supercgarged radial) because the o engines were to simple. installed turbines, hotsection inspections, ground valves, painted twins, overhauled large c/s props, annuals, sheet metal repairs, fabric repairs, covered and balanced control surfaces, fabricated sheetmetal parts using the bend allowance formulas(talk about a pain in the arse)strobbed heli's, the list goes on forever but the point is i did more than my share while others didnt. some get by on knowledge others on the coat tails it will always be this way.its up to the individual not the method,
however a doctor with a class average of 70 is still called doctor.

I agree with you on every point! The reason I wrote this is because on countless occations, when an aircraft owner finds out I'm an A&P, he wants me to do some work on his (or her) airplane. These people don't know me from Adam! and while I am (usually) more than qualified, there are a lot of guys out there who aren't! What I'm trying to do is help people avoid making a mistake before it's too late... In other words, know your mechanic! Bad ones give you and I a bad name! and they are out there!

 

[Joey]

I think the key issue here is if you were under supervision of an A&P.

This keeps coming up, and I just don't understand why. There is no such requirement. I can't even find a hint of such a requirement, but I might have missed it and would appreciate if someone would point it out. I suspect it comes from certified aircraft, where you have to be supervised even if you don't intend to log the time towards your A&P.

It has been my experience however, that EVERYTHING is subjective and it all depends on the FAA Inspector giving you your tickets.

I can certainly agree with this, as the Inspector's handbook states that "Experience gained from ... work on an experimental amateur-built aircraft will be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements." Building an RV-10 and helping on a few others might be enough for one FSDO, yet get you nowhere close with another.

 

[freegespeed]

part the way through A&P school

I own an RV6A and have a totally non-aviation career, but for my own interest I have been taking A&P classes at a local community collage here in San Diego.

The point of this reply is to give my perspective on how much work is involved to get through this A&P program. It's over 1900 hours total not including homework and studying for tests, of which I have only about 400 hours done, whew! It takes 40 to 60 hours to get a private pilot licence, so you can see it's an exponential difference in time between those two endeavors.

I do think building an RV should count for maybe half the time to qualify, but I doubt many guys ever use it.

I'm not sure the pure experience guys get enough of the theory side of A&P training. There are plenty of twenty year military guys with me in the Miramar A&P program and they all say that their A&P training has been more intense then their military avaition mechanics training was. Although those "helo" guys are very sharp on helo related things.

While I do think the A&P ticket is license to learn, from what I've seen, newly minted A&P's are ready for most general aviation tasks within weeks of getting out in the real world. I think some guys feel the a need to impress about their many years of experience, but when it comes down to actual work, its just the same old inspection, or oil change from last month.

Cheers.

 

[amed]

Hi Clark, It seems that you are going to one of the better A&P schools out there. This is good to hear! It's good that you are learning a lot! However, come back and talk to me after you have worked for a month at your local FBO....
Thanks everyone for the insightful comments! This is a GREAT WEBSITE!!!!

 

[amed]

i see your point, but as i said before that applies in all aspects of services.
people are often to quick to trust and will assume the world but when they get burrned once they quickly learn. some of the a&p's you warn about i blieve is why dan built his own plane.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

 

[freegespeed]

I knew I would hear from the working A&P's after my comments

This all in good fun and serious at the same time. The work in the real world is very demanding I'm sure( I have friends who work as A&P's in the airlines and in G.A.), so my lack of actual experience other then my own plane is certainly a weak point in my posting.

I think one of the thread entries here mentioned the difference between the community collage programs and the private fast track ones, which may be worth noting. My program has an AA degree component in it, and a very strict time documentation requirement in it as well.

Anyway I think honesty and integrity are the difference between a good mechanic, and a good mechanic who doesn't charge you an arm and a leg for minor work.

Well I think I'll go cut my self with safety wire again, cheers

 

[AV8ORJWC]

A & P

Most of my last thirty +years has been on the Operations side of flying. Served 23 years as a Pilot Examiner, Chief Pilot for a 141 training school and Flight Instructor. Worked many of those years doing maintenance "under supervision".

I thought naively that I could convert those years to an FAA acceptable signoff for A & P examination. Since my passion was composite planes I spent some time in that area. Then convincing my wife of the value of my taking a two year sabbatical from work, I began selective Part 147 classes to supplement my practical experience. Low and behold - three years later, it was necessary to complete every single class required by the 147 school to get their coveted diploma. Couldn't sell them any of my practical experience.

Over those thirty years, I did not follow a structured plan to obtain official A&P certificated letters of experience in each of the FAA required fields of study. Many of those ole guys had died or retired. Without a DOD file proving military competance, all thirty years was just playful activity. My FSDO does not acknowledge kit built operations unless under the eye and written endorsement of an A & P. I found the schooling to be invaluable. My passion to build unwaivering and therefore the next logical step was to use the 147 training and go to work for a major airline doing Heavy Check maintenance.

All of the training was of value: field, college, OJT at the airlines and the incredible amount of classroom training paid by said employer. I am ready to stack up my experience with any homebuilder and yet know that everyday I learn something new and valuable from a wide range of contributors. The greatest tragedy was not getting those signatures years ago or thinking that building a kit would equate to a graduation certificate from a 147 school.

John - KUAO ($00.02)

 

[mikemolzahn]

The truth about A&P Mechanic

While I was attending Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, my basic mechanics instructor told me "The FAA lets the military do what ever they want because their aircraft are armed".

I am a retired USAF Turboprop and Turboshaft Prowerplant Mechanic that worked on C-130 series aircraft and MH-53J/M series Helicopters. When I retired I elected to attend Spartan College to as some of you have pointed out "learn the test", but I tend to disagree. Because coming from the turboprop/turboshaft world and not being your run of the mill car guy, I was at a disadvantage when it came to the FAA tests. Plus even though I was cross-utilized in crewchief jobs and carried aircraft battle damage repair technician and assessor qualifications the FSDO determined I wasn't eligible for my airframe ticket. So off to college I went. The funny part about when I got to prop class I found my props on my C-130's worked a whole lot different that the ones on smaller aircraft, it was like Hamilton Standard relearned to do things when the C-130 came along.

I had a blast in school and learned a lot of things, and wouldn't have traded it for anything.

Mike

 

[N395V]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Unlike other posters, I dont mind taking questions

 

[Russ McCutcheon]

No offence to anyone but in my experience A&Ps are like auto mechanics, most of them don?t know what there doing and are more likely to cause problems then solve them, I have run across two that where very good and also cool with me hanging out/helping. I don?t trust any of them, not even the good ones, when I need one I keep an eye on them and what there doing, I seldom need one.

I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!

 

[dhammer]

I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!

The little known fact is most airline mechanics are not A&P's. Just like most military mechanics, they are trained well to do a very narrow task and don't know diddly about anything else on the aircraft. It has been my experience that the best mechanics in the airlines are the line maintenance guys that fix them on the gate. They have to troubleshoot under pressure and that is what takes real skill. That being said, they have a giant support structure to help them when they can't figure it out themselves.

The same goes for FBO or repair station mechanics. All their work is signed off under their repair station certificate, so none of them need an A&P and most of them in the major service centers do not have one.

Far and away the brightest and best work in corporate aviation. They are generally very well trained on the whole aircraft and don't have a giant support structure to answer any questions. A guy that goes to remote areas as a Flight Mechanic with the aircraft has to be able to troubleshoot avionics, engines, APU's, hydraulics, etc. etc., or the airplane is stuck there. It has been my experience that there are very few airline mechanics that could do the same without their company to call on. Airliners are designed to be mechanically simple and easy to fly and fix for a reason.

As part of my business, we place personnel in flight departments. Pilots are a dime a dozen, but good technicians are hard to find. Few are going into the field as our kids are being raised to go to college, not to turn wrenches. How many kids today grow up working on their own car?

The better ones we place command salaries starting well over $100k. That's why you don't find the best and brightest working on small aircraft. The FBO's can't afford them, don't want to spend the money to train them, and the small airplane owner doesn't want to pay for them. For a guy like me that has spent the last 40 years either fixing or flying them, it a sad state of affairs.

Don

 

[AMURRAY]

The point of this reply is to give my perspective on how much work is involved to get through this A&P program. It's over 1900 hours total not including homework and studying for tests, of which I have only about 400 hours done, whew! It takes 40 to 60 hours to get a private pilot license, so you can see it's an exponential difference in time between those two endeavors.


Totally agree. A&P cert was the first I earned and my most prized. Obtaining commercial multi instrument was a walk in the park compared to the time spent getting an A&P. I believe A&P's are in a large part a dying breed. I know a lots of people that want to be pilots. I don't know anybody that wants to be an A&P. Almost all of the part 147 schools in my area have closed because of lack of attendance. The military is not producing mechanics like they used to. A lot of A&P's including me came from a generation that worked on their cars in high school. Those days are over.
I don't think the curriculum of a part 147 school is very difficult. The hard part is doing the 1900 hours plus an oral, practical and written for General Airframe Powerplant.

 

[131RB]

I have been an A&P for a major airline for 25 years. I have been sidelineing in general aviation for just as long. Why? It sure aint the pay! I love what I do or I wouldnt do it. A&Ps are no different than doctors you have good ones and bad ones. Some can do it all, some specialize and some shouldnt even touch a wrench. To make a statement that A&Ps cant be trusted is wrong.You have to get a feel for the person your working with. I do feel that a good A&P is underapreciated and most people have no idea whats involved in getting the ticket and staying out of trouble. There is alot more to being a good mechanic than banging a few rivets, timming an engine and changing oil and spark plugs.
Let us not forget,Ongoing knowledge of the FAR's, wood dope and fabric, welding, hydraulics, propellers, engines recips- opposed and round, turbines, electrical, sheetmetal, composites and the list goes on. In short a jack of all trades.
The A&P test was no picnic when I took mine. You have a General test 50 questions (if I remember corectly) Airframe 100 questions and Powerplant 100 questions, and an Oral and Practical that can last as long as the examiner see's fit. As I recall about 8hrs each for my airframe portion and powerplant.
In closing I will say this, to anyone interested in your A&P you either need to do it for the love of aviation or your own personal needs, dont do it for money or respect because its not going to make you happy.
Ryan Bendure
A&P
RV4
Rocket progressing

 

[mikegraycmg]

Getting close

I'm about 2/3 of the way through A&P school at Tarrant County College. I know plenty of guys that aren't A&Ps that do many things better than I do ( the best sheet metal worker I know doesn't have his A&P). But, the education has taught me a very important skill, and that's knowing when a thing has been done right, and what it takes to make it right.

The school doesn't teach you to be the best, but it does teach you to know when a thing has been done the right way. The assurance that you take from that knowledge changes your whole approach.

 

[LarsonAero]

No offence to anyone but in my experience A&Ps are like auto mechanics, most of them don?t know what there doing and are more likely to cause problems then solve them, ...

Just prefacing your statement with "no offence" sure doesn't go far to keep from offending....

...
I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!

My experience has been that the average airline industry AMT is not an A&P, and most likely only understands their certain area...if that. Chances are they're laid off before they become an expert.

An A&P is nothing like an auto mechanic. The stakes are much, much higher, the education and experience required is higher....and the pay is usually less.

An A&P license is a license to learn. Simply possessing an A&P doesn't give you authorization to do anything you want. There are experience, tool, and other requirements before you can perform a maintenance operation. While work on experimentals is certainly more lax on requirements....work on certified aircraft is a whole other ball game. Either way...the liability of working on aircraft is huge.

Dismissing A&P's as those who cause more problems than they solve....shows a lack on knowledge on your part.

 

[MNAv8or]

I have been an A&P for a little over 5 years now. Had my IA for about a year. I'm only 25 and still a young pup when it comes to aircraft maintenance. But I have known from the 6th grade I was going to be an A&P because I love what I do.

I work on everything from 150's up through citation X's. My full time job is working for a corporate flight department running 9 airplanes, 5 of which are bigger jets. Where i live, the corporate world is very cut throat because of all the Northwest mechancis that are flooded up here in the twin cities. I have lost more then one opening to a NWA mechanic that had been laid off 6 years ago and left aviation because the pay wasn't there anymore. But when a position opens up, they get the job because they have 20 plus years experience, and then don't know a single thing about the jet they are going to work on due to the statement made above where they only worked in the landing gear crew. Or I am dismissed because of my age. One boss actually read my resume and said I was full of it after looking at my aircraft experience, saying that there was no way I could have worked on all these airplanes for my age. That same boss then met up with me at Meridian school in florida and by the end of school, threw so much money at me to come work for him I couldn't turn it down. But the fact remained that I was dissmissed because of my age. Its funny that I end up working for a corporation now that when I started, the chief of maintenance couldn't believe I knew all I did an could let me tear apart a citiation X without having to look over my shoulder. But maybe that is the difference between loveing my job and what I do and someone who just wants the paycheck.

I agree with everyone, get to know your mechanic. If you don't trust him, then don't use that one. And it never hurts to get a second opinion. I do work on the side and I also go to the hangars of customers to work on their airplanes. If I say something that they don't like, I tell them to get a second opinion and even offer up names and numbers of local shops they can call. I want the customer to be safe when they strap there family in the airplane. If having second and third opinions is what that takes, it doesn't hurt my pride at all to bring someone else in on the situation.

Comparing what I do to an auto mechanic really outrages me. I might be one of the few that did grow up working on my own cars and repairing the tractors and grain trucks on the farm for my age. But for the money that the normal A&P makes working at an FBO, I can understand why no one is getting their license to do maintanenance anymore. They get paid next to nothing, and if something goes wrong, they get to go to jail. And they are very underappreciated in what they do. WHen a car breaks down, you pull over to the side of the road, call someone to come get the car and you are inconvienanced with your time. If an A&P does something wrong (and I don't care who you are, everyone makes mistakes... its human nature) the airplane will come down, but sometimes results in a loss of life.

I have no problem working with customers on their airplanes and have signed off many condition inspections for people as I have found most homebuilders build airplanes to better standards than certified (some, not all...) I have also run across people like the gentleman above who thinks that A&P's aren't worth the air they breath. And I am more than happy to push their airplane outside of the hangar and tell them to go somewhere else, as they are useually the ones that you don't want to touch their airplane anyway becuase they are the type of people that are never happy. But the second they are stranded at your airport with no tools and wants to be your best friend to get what they want, their tune changes rapidly....

 

[pvans]

Amed started this thread which included a comment that the factory folks know best. I believe this is not always the case. If you read the current AOPA magazine, July 09 issue, there is an article about running lean of peak. It states that most old experienced mechanics AND Lycoming and Continental were against it for a long time, but as more and more people are doing it successfully, they are now coming around.

The factory is usually most interested in reducing warranty expenses, maintaining a reputation for reliable products, and keeping the sales pipeline flowing.They are not that interested in saving pilots money on fuel.

As for my own case, I have been an A&P since 1991, and IA since 1994. I decided that having to hire others all the time was a huge bother. I had worked under the supervision of 2 other IA mechanics on certified and experimental aircraft ( not homebuilt though). I simply documented the hours spent in a letter, had the supervising mechanics sign it, and took that to the local FSDO. They examined the data and issued me a slip stating I had met the practical experience required. Then I simply studied for the 3 written tests. That was easy, just like any other FAA test all the questions they draw from are published, and compared to a college class, it was duck soup. Took the 3 tests all the same day. That qualified me to take the practical test. Found a retired instructor from the local community college AP school. He used the school facilities to give me the test. It lasted 6 hours, but really, it was more like hanging out in my grandfather's hangar than a serious test. Yes, I had to demonstrate many operations, but the gist of the test is the gut feel the examiner gets from working with the applicant. Just like when acting as a pilot, it does not take very long to determine if the person is capable or not. He can find any number of ways to pass or fail a student.

Then, after 3 years of experience, you are qualified to take a 2 part written test to become an IA. One part is closed book, the other part open book, because you end up researching data, etc. In order to keep the IA current, I am required to do 4 annual inspections per year, or take a class. Once each 2 years now, we all meet to present our qualifications for renewal. The room is full of maybe 100 guys who want to renew their IA. My estimation is that 20 work for actual FBO's doing daily work as their way of supporting a family, 10 are guys like me that do mostly work on their own airplanes, and 70 are between 65 and 90 years old and like hanging out at airports, talking airplanes, and maybe doing one little project per year. Those guys take the class and remain legally current IA's.

So, now I am fully qualified to perform essentially any operation on my personal airplanes, from annuals on down the line. It has made owning airplanes sensible for me. I do owner assisted annuals for a limited number of friends. It helped that I had a mechanical engineering degree to begin with.

Peter
Flying and maintining:
Cessna 210, Taylorcraft BC-12D, RV3, Bucker BU1-131 biplane, Cessna 172. Building a Harmon Rocket, now at the wiring stage.

 

[LarsonAero]

... But the second they are stranded at your airport with no tools and wants to be your best friend to get what they want, their tune changes rapidly....

Now that's the truth.....they all want to be your best friend when they need to borrow tools. Tools which are not cheap. Homebuilders tend to understand that....they've had to purchase a few tools themselves. To the average "Joe Pilot" who purchases his tools at harbor freight....and uses them once or twice, they can't understand how more money can be in a tool box than the average mechanic makes in two years income.

Often tools are what dictates what I can and can't do as a mechanic.

 

[ArjanPlomp]

2 A&P's: 5 different opinions?

Today I asked two well respected A&P's (&IA's) a couple of questions (both present at the same time) regarding sticking valves, oil consumption, engine break-in and leaning procedures. Both gentlemen are top class, know each other and respect each other well, but their answers were completely different (surprise?) on each question!

I told them that I will never ask them a question at the same time again, unless it is Friday 5pm, so that I'm sure they will both have the same answer to get me out of their (different) shops. It was the only time I received a unanimous -joking- answer: "you got that right!".

BTW: both helped me fix our engine problem. Free of charge...
PS: regarding the answers to my questions and my conclusion: I'm going to follow my own common sense!

 

[Russ McCutcheon]

Just prefacing your statement with "no offence" sure doesn't go far to keep from offending....


My experience has been that the average airline industry AMT is not an A&P, and most likely only understands their certain area...if that. Chances are they're laid off before they become an expert.

An A&P is nothing like an auto mechanic. The stakes are much, much higher, the education and experience required is higher....and the pay is usually less.

An A&P license is a license to learn. Simply possessing an A&P doesn't give you authorization to do anything you want. There are experience, tool, and other requirements before you can perform a maintenance operation. While work on experimentals is certainly more lax on requirements....work on certified aircraft is a whole other ball game. Either way...the liability of working on aircraft is huge.

Dismissing A&P's as those who cause more problems than they solve....shows a lack on knowledge on your part.

Well I did say in my experience!!! and I stand buy what I said and I am better off not trusting any one but myself or at least be there to see what there doing and decide if I agree or not, bottom line is that I have to determine if it's safe to fly, so far in my 1000 hours of flight time (mostly RVs) I have seen the majority of A&Ps I have dealt with should not be left unchecked so I check and or watch all there work and thank God I seldom need one, good ones are hard to find though as I said I have found a couple of good ones, to bad they where not any where near home. On the flip side it could be possibly reckless of you to make a blanket statement about how good they all are. Trust me it can be a dentist, doctor, auto mechanic, A&P, a layer, or almost any trade, the majority are not at the top of there game and many are lousy, some are great though.

P.S. the good ones got a nice tip and I never ask to borrow there tools.

 

[grimr2]

Just an info note:

The USAF has more acft w/recips to work on then 10 yrs ago, and they are getting more all the time...they call 'em UAVs. The mechanics on these birds will be experienced with "normal" GA engines and composite/sheet metal structures. So, if you are someone who might be looking to hire a veteran in the future, keep them in mind.

 

[131RB]

Today I asked two well respected A&P's (&IA's) a couple of questions (both present at the same time) regarding sticking valves, oil consumption, engine break-in and leaning procedures. Both gentlemen are top class, know each other and respect each other well, but their answers were completely different (surprise?) on each question!

I told them that I will never ask them a question at the same time again, unless it is Friday 5pm, so that I'm sure they will both have the same answer to get me out of their (different) shops. It was the only time I received a unanimous -joking- answer: "you got that right!".

BTW: both helped me fix our engine problem. Free of charge...
PS: regarding the answers to my questions and my conclusion: I'm going to follow my own common sense!

Im sure youve heard the expression "Theres more than one way to skin a cat" In other words just because you get two different opinions doesent mean either one is wrong. Sometimes theres more than one way to fix things. Regarding break in and sticking valves, thats a loaded question and will always get varried oppinions. Once again more than one way will work. Always try and collect as much information as you can and ask people who have used the procedures your currious about how they worked for them.
Ryan