S

Spindrift

Well Known Member
Hi all,

I've had the RV grin ever since Dann Parks took me up in his 50hr -6A in late Spring and have been working toward actually getting started (and convincing my wife this is a great idea) ever since. I took the Synergy Air intro class in June, bought my tools in July, and finished my toolbox practice kit a few days ago. My question is how to plan out the budgeting process down the road. Here are the estimates from Vans, but what I don't know is where in the process they all fit in:
Empennage -- $1495 (obvious 1st step)
QB Wing & Fuselage -- $19485
Finishing kit -- $5500
Engine 180HP, not sure yet new/used/Lyco or clone -- $25250 or less
CS Prop -- $5585
Prop governor & cabling -- $1350
Firewall forward accessories -- $3200
Electronic flight instruments -- $3200
VFR Instruments -- $1100
Lights -- $890
VFR X-country avionics -- $2800
Basic electrical system -- $400
Cushions/harness -- $900
Pro Paint -- $6000 (obviously can be done after successful 1st flight)

I'm less concerned at this point with the specific numbers (which will vary as I finalize panel & engine decisions) as I am knowing when in the process the big spends come in after the QB kit. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
bill
aspiring 7A builder
(was on the fence 7vs9, but did took an aerobatics lesson in a T-6 Texan which cleared that right up!)
 
My sequence

Using your list, mine looks something like this:

Empennage -- $1495 (obvious 1st step)
QB Wing & Fuselage -- $19485
Lights -- $890
Basic electrical system -- $400
Engine 180HP, not sure yet new/used/Lyco or clone -- $25250 or less
Prop governor & cabling -- $1350
Firewall forward accessories -- $3200
VFR Instruments -- $1100
VFR X-country avionics -- $2800
Electronic flight instruments -- $3200
CS Prop -- $5585
Finishing kit -- $5500
Cushions/harness -- $900
Pro Paint -- $6000 (obviously can be done after successful 1st flight)

You can move stuff around as you please, but you do need to get the electrical system pretty well figured out for the wings before you close them. You can always change stuff later on, but it's easiest before they're closed.

There's also a bit of cross-over. For example, I'm still closing out my quickbuild wings yet I've purchased the autopilot so that I can mount the servo more easily.

A couple other things to keep in mind: 1) EFIS systems change all the time. Buy them as late as you can 2) Interior and paint are 'nice to have' items. These planes fly just fine with spartan interiors and no paint. 3) You can upgrade to a CS prop later if you want to get in the air more affordably. Just request a plug when you get your motor.

Good luck! :)

-Rick
 
How about a breakdown?

Spindrift said:
I'm less concerned at this point with the specific numbers (which will vary as I finalize panel & engine decisions) as I am knowing when in the process the big spends come in after the QB kit.
Click to expand...

I've been wondering this very thing for the last few months! There are a lot of estimates on the final cost of building, but I would also like to know when these costs occur. For me, it's simply because I don't want to have building come to a grinding halt due to a temporary lack of funds. I'd personally rather just know that in order to start building, in year one I'm going to need 'X' number of dollars, in year two...

I know a lot of guys are going to say to "just start building." Well, I could, but that's just not how I work. I'm a planner. :)

So how about it? Could a few of you break down your total dollar figure into years, or hours, or whatever units you have handy. How about just a percentage - you spent $80k on your plane - looking back at your build log, in year one you spent say 20% of the total, in year two 40%, etc.

I'm on the verge of starting to build, but I need as much ammo as I can to finish pushing my wife over the edge. This breakdown should help (the figures look a lot more manageable this way). Thanks!
 
Do a search on the average amount of time spent on each sub kit and figure in Vans lead time. It is all going to depend on how fast you work. For example, most tail kits take somewhere around 150-200 hours. Figure out your weekly or monthly time you can devote to the build, and forcast when you will be ready for the next kit. I'm guessing with the QB kit, your going to need alot of stuff at the same time, more so than the slow build guys. There is probaly a few hundred hours you can put into the tail/fuse/wings before you need the other stuff (plumbing, wiring, servos, avionics, etc.) A quick guestimation with your numbers is your going to need about $4-5k to start on the tail kit (tools and kit and shipping), then 150-200 hours of work after that, around $25k for the QB kit, basic plumbing, wiring, etc. As pointed out, some items you may want "out of order" such as autopilot, lights/strobes, etc so you can install before closing up the wings.

Mike
Another future builder
 
The Planning

Not sure about the rest of the builders out there, but if you haven't built an aircraft before, any planning on timing might only be good at the time the plan goes together. After you start, any timing goes right out the window. I know a lot of guys really drive themselves throughout the whole project to fly, but there's the whole "getting there is half the fun" aspect. As a project manager by trade, I've always been tempted to put together a network diagram of this project including all dependancies but I'd rather build than sit at a computer in the evenings. I'm not too interested in the total time, but just the flow of the work items to optimize the build process. What fun, getting to apply JIT procurement practices with TSP/PSP, Six Sigma, PMI practices, and the whole load of other quality improvement jihads... :rolleyes:

From what I've found on the project costs (been at this for over 4 years now and have just finished fitting canopy), it's somewhat akin to a low interest loan with a huge balloon payment.

Note: times below are for a slo-build -7 so your milage may vary.

First 6 months: Tail, tools
Next 18 months: Wings (add a/p servos, some wiring for lights and pitot heat as necessary, and more tools)
Next 24 months: Fuselage Sturucture (add strobe powersupply, elt mount and possibly avionics trays, and more tools), order finish kit towards end.
Next 6 months: Finish canopy, finalize avionics/ wiring diagrams. Order electrical components that need to be installed while fuselage is open and firewall clear (relays, battery mount, fuse blocks, and more tools)
Next 6 months: Avionics and wiring (order avionics, wiring kit, and firewall forward kit, get engine on order with deposit, and more tools)
Next 6 months: Install firewall forward (final engine payment, buy prop, interior, and more tools) and interior as necessary

So from the above, the big items are shoved into the last year. There's different ways to skin this cat but this is my way and has worked fine. I'm taking time with the family and do about 6-8 hours a week on the project, but takes into account the weather here in the Northwest. For me, the build process is 75% of the fun. BTW, you can never have too many tools. There's always something that you need to either replace, get for a special job, or it's just a cool tool.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Cheers,

Jim
 
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First, an initial plan is dificult to follow. To many things impact your build such as family, work and funds.

Second, capability growth and cost creep are insideous.

Some data from my build for comparison:

QB-7A started on 1/1/04. I have 8 months with no build activity and several others with meager activity (deer and salmon really impact my build schedule). I've logged 720 hours of construction (includes about 25 hours of staring and thinking).

I started with a night, VFR plan using a 6-pack. Figured on working 25 hours a week.

I now have an IFR bird with a GRT EFIS and I work only about 30 hours a month.

In 700 hours of construction I've completed the tail including all glass work, the wings and most of the fuse. I've got the top front deck ready to rivet. My panel is cut and fitted to the frame. I'm installing the EFIS and all other electrical components now. I expect to be done with the electrical in 2 months. Bought my radio stack and will be installing it with the electrical this summer. My engine is here and I'll be installing that as soon the electrical and panel is done.

Money flows:
2004: $42,794. This was $37,700 for aircraft stuff: the complete kit (except FWF), auto pilot, exterior lights and a KMD-150 with GPS. $3060 for tools and miscellaneous.

2005: $1,405. Broke out as $1067 for parts (clamps, primer, wire etc.), and $338 for tools and misc.

2006: $55,566. Broken out as $55,060 for parts (EFIS, engine, radios, guages, electrical system), $421 for tools and $85 for misc. I still have $6,400 to go this year for propeller and seat covering.

Scroungers can do it for a lot less, VFR panel for about 10K less than my panel, and an engine for much less (I opted for a new Mattituck with roller lifters). Of course, standard build will save you another 8K over the QB.

Jekyll

Jekyll
 
Thanks

Thanks for the tips. I've got the Cleaveland tool kit, and I'm local, so that saves some time and money. Just got the go ahead tonight from my wife to get the tail kit, so this week I'm hoping to dive in and make my first purchase.

bill
aspiring 7A builder
 
[/QUOTE]I'm less concerned at this point with the specific numbers (which will vary as I finalize panel & engine decisions) as I am knowing when in the process the big spends come in after the QB kit. Any advice would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Hi Bill,
Answering your original question, since the figures are secondary, the big spends are few. After the QB kit is the engine and this will more than likely be 18 months or more from startup, depending on your hours/week commitment. The engine install with wiring/plumbing/oil cooler and lines doesn't take all that long. Secondary big spend is avionics/instruments.

Avionics may be added before or after you hang the engine (We did them kinda simulataneously.......). I say this because while we were waiting for the crank and cam to be turned, we installed radios etc, then went back to engine reassembly when the parts arrived so we had no downtime with nothing to do. While we waited for the mags and harnesses to arrive, we wired some more...and so on.

Incidentally, your numbers exceed $70,000 without paint. Ours came in a little over $52,000with paint. Then again, a used engine which we rebuilt and an $1800 Catto prop.
 
Depending on whether you still want to have a marriage and family at the conclusion of the project, be sure to factor in time for courses/classes on things like wiring/avionics, fiberglassing etc. There are a few good weekend classes but I think one needs to factor in time to get enough expertise before beginning etc.

In my case, I'm no electrician, so I can measure that learning curve in months before starting electrical work etc.

I didn't set a time frame per se on how long I'd spend on each component since the last thing I wanted this project to be was ANOTHER not-finished project making me feel behind schedule. I've got plenty of those. But there are some places where, I think, the finishing kit needs to be ordered before the fuselage kit is done becuase there are some parts -- and I've never been able to figure out why...like that "hat" piece in the tip-up canopy. Why is that in the frinishing kit and not in the fuselage kit? -- that you need before you can complete the earlier component.

A lot of this also depends on how you're going to pay for it. I'm pay-as-you-go. Others have a limitless checkbook. Others have financing and don't mind taking on interest payments now. But how you intend to do that also dictates just about everything else.

This is a good topic, and it mirrors one I was in a few years ago on the Yahoogroups list when I tried to create a timeline of ordering stuff. And I was just thinking of thise this morning as a possible feature for the RV Builder's Hotline next week (which returns next week; I'm back from vacation on Thursday). But it's hard to come up with a single answer.
 
[/QUOTE]Incidentally, your numbers exceed $70,000 without paint. Ours came in a little over $52,000with paint. Then again, a used engine which we rebuilt and an $1800 Catto prop.[/QUOTE]

I'm still on the fence new vs used engine, and CS vs FP prop, so that's why I commented the numbers weren't really key to my question. I'm hoping for a pay-as-I-go scenario, at least up to the engine. My wife's comment was "why build a new airplane and put a used engine in it?" She is of the opinion that $15K more is a small price to pay (relative to total cost) for more reliability/safety -- which isn't necessarily true of course. A lot will depend on my financial situation in 18-24 months. I'd like to be flying by my 40th b-day, so I've got 3 1/2 years build time -- should be do-able esp with a QB.

Thanks again for the input!
-- bill
 
Robert M said:
Don't forget $3000.00 for tools if you don't already have them
Click to expand...

I've got the main tools ($2K so far), but I suspect my 10 gal air comp won't cut it for long before I need to add volume or upgrade. Built my 80% of my work bench today. I'll finish up tomorrow and be ready to get started next week.

-- bill
 
The money

Hi again Bill,
We pretty much had our QB paid for at startup but it was way short of the total. Nevertheless, we went ahead working almost daily and it soon became apparent that our build speed exceeded our income speed :)

Since I have a 50/50 partner in the deal, I suggested that we go and talk to Frank at the bank and he loaned us the balance of $20,000 that we figured we needed to buy everything else. We came close but not close enough. Meantime, we paid down the bank debt as we could (it was kinda open-ended....nice to live in a small town and be friends with the banker!).

After a year and eight months, we had the first flight and no paint and a balance owed of $15,000. Now, it's a painted beautiful, fast rocket ship :D

You'll find a way to keep building and financing........just don't sweat it too much. We even had a no-interest credit card bill for a while so we could complete the airplane sooner.
 
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