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terrykohler

Well Known Member
The current debate about stalling on turn-in to final (now well over 100 posts) got me to wondering:

Are (some of) the proponents of more gear/new technology a bit like Rodney Dangerfield in "Caddyshack"? ""Hey orange balls! I'll take a box of those, gimme some of those naked lady tees, gimme 6 of those, gimme 3 of those-" In other words, are we trying to replace fundamental skills with technology?

For the side that advocates "skill", are we talking about regular, recurrent training with instructors, or are we practicing the same bad habits over and over again by ourselves or with a buddy with similar skill level?

Think about it: Some of the most skilled pilots in the world do nothing but practice - and they're graded pretty much every time they fly. Even most corporate pilots are subject to regular stints at places like Flight Safety. Most professional golfers have their own swing coaches, and nearly every single digit handicap golfer I know takes lessons every year. Not so with the duffers.

Here's the question(s):
As a private pilot, when's the last time you had training? (BFR doesn't count, simulated approaches with a safety pilot doesn't either).
Do you do regular, recurrent training? With an instructor? How much? How often?
Are you working on advanced ratings? What's the plan when you get there?
Are you willing to put $20K into your instrument panel, but balk at spending $100 or $200 a year on improving your fundamental skills?

I'm all for technology - the tools available today give us much more information and can help us to make better decisions in the air and on the ground. On the other hand, all the naked lady tees in the world won't improve our game unless we get some good coaching as well. This is especially true as we add more "stuff" to our airplanes.

Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
terrykohler said:
Are (some of) the proponents of more gear/new technology a bit like Rodney Dangerfield in "Caddyshack"? ""Hey orange balls! I'll take a box of those, gimme some of those naked lady tees, gimme 6 of those, gimme 3 of those-" In other words, are we trying to replace fundamental skills with technology?
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm replacing the fundemental skill of Radio nav & celestial navigation with GPS. At least until the sun's solar storms become too over whelming. :eek:

I suppose you are aware that some CFI's truely believe that radio nav is a fundemental skill that must be cherished by all those who fly. IMO, these instructors are stuck in the dark ages.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Practice makes perfect?

Something I overheard my son's little league coach tell him years ago stuck with me. He said that "Practice does not make perfect, practice makes PERMANENT. Perfect practice makes perfect".

If you practice something incorrectly, you will make that incorrect action permanent.
 
Terry great post. The day I insured my plane there were two names listed as pilots. Myself (CFI) and MY CFI (Kurt).

There's no better money spent than on a CFI who will bust your but at every hint of poor skills. My CFI, Kurt is just that sort of instructor. He'll be the first person I will fly with after my Phase I. I will have him critique my skills and then we'll reverse roles.

The great thing about the current state of professional flying, there are lot's of great pilots out of work and back into CFI jobs. Not too many CFI's around right now with "one foot in, and one foot out".
 
They all started in J-3's....

...at Augusta Aviation (Ga.) until a few years ago, before they moved into Cherokees. They had soloed the J-3 and no one ever ran a Cherokee off the runway! These "good stick" skills were just what the doctor ordered.

Be your own best critic....always fly to the next level of license...if you're a Private, fly to Commercial skill levels 50' from your assigned altitude and within5 degrees of heading....and so on.

Terry has a great recommendation in having good dual every so often,

Best,
 
I See You've Been Talking to My Wife

I suppose you are aware that some CFI's truely believe that radio nav is a fundemental skill that must be cherished by all those who fly. IMO, these instructors are stuck in the dark ages.

Larry:
It's worse than that. I make sure that students can navigate without ANY radios before ramping up to VOR navigation. If the plane's got an ADF... oh yeah - lets look for some NDB approaches. They're all just tools. Would I be willing to give up my GPS? Heck no! On the other hand, I don't want to break a sweat if it quits at ANY time.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
terrykohler said:
I suppose you are aware that some CFI's truely believe that radio nav is a fundemental skill that must be cherished by all those who fly. IMO, these instructors are stuck in the dark ages.

Larry:
It's worse than that. I make sure that students can navigate without ANY radios before ramping up to VOR navigation. If the plane's got an ADF... oh yeah - lets look for some NDB approaches. They're all just tools. Would I be willing to give up my GPS? Heck no! On the other hand, I don't want to break a sweat if it quits at ANY time.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
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Well, I am not a CFI, but have spent some time instructing in the plane that I fly for work, and I emphatically agree with Terry. Good flying starts with the basics both in navigation and proper control of the aircraft.
How many of us are immediately able to find our position on a chart (IFR or VFR) without the GPS using ground reference or cross radials? How many of us can accurately fly a course line while compensating for a 30kt crosswind? without the plane equipment telling us how to do it?
The same goes for your skills that enable you to fly the plane. How many of us practice stalls and steep turns until we are tacitly able to recognize the onset of a stall? Do you practice pattern work when the winds are challenging to the point that the plane is on course and glideslope throughout the entire pattern?
The reality is this; the advances in todays EFIS and flight equipment provides much more information and automation for even the "round the patch" pilot. However, the laws of physics have not changed, and all the "magic" that money can buy will not keep you out of trouble if you do not have the basic skills. Unfortunately, the accident records will affirm my statements.
Maybe I operate in the "dark ages", but I assure you that my aircraft and passengers are safer.
Don't read this as an assault on automation, as I believe that it should be used to it fullest extent, but if the plane knows where it is but you don't then...Houston, we have a problem"!
 
L.Adamson said:
Yes, I'm replacing the fundemental skill of Radio nav & celestial navigation with GPS. At least until the sun's solar storms become too over whelming. :eek:

I suppose you are aware that some CFI's truely believe that radio nav is a fundemental skill that must be cherished by all those who fly. IMO, these instructors are stuck in the dark ages.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
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Make sure that you never take a checkride with me!!:D
Occasionally, I will ride safety pilot for one of my friends with the "Caddy Shack" plane (as described in a previous posting". All they want to do is ILS's and GPS based holding and approaches! Lets just say that many do not enjoy all the turns, climbs and descents, configuration and airspeed changes, and most of all the dreaded holding pattern entries! Of course all of this is done without the benefit of flight directors, GPS, etc. Sorry, but that is not done to be a jerk, it is done to get the eyes moving and the head in the same place as the plane! Then we bring all the equipment into the picture, and use it to augment and refine techniques and procedures.
 
Dark Ages

L.Adamson said:
I suppose you are aware that some CFI's truely believe that radio nav is a fundemental skill that must be cherished by all those who fly. IMO, these instructors are stuck in the dark ages.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
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It isn't "the dark ages" if the facilities and equipment still exist. Technology has expanded very quickly and the GA fleet has not really kept up. Training a new pilot in a glass airplane and ignoring the existence VORs and yes, even NDBs is dangerous. A student needs to be exposed to all the technologies starting with a sectional chart and ending with the "state of the art," whatever that is this week.

Like Mark, I have found the people that hide behind technology are frequently very weak on fundamental skills.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
All the gadgets in the world will never save the poor fellow that will stall spin on final or turn to final, frankly it?s not hard to avoid and if you go up high and try it, it?s not even hard to save when you know what your looking for and react before its upside down and pointed at the ground.

CFIs are human to and not all created equal, find one you have faith in and go out and learn how to fly your airplane, go upstairs and create all the common unsafe conditions like intentionally cross controlling on base to final turn with to little airspeed and see just what it takes to get it to flip over and what it takes to avoid it. Absolutely do spin training; to bad they dropped this requirement for a private!!!

I have been blessed to learn to fly from a CFI (Boyd Williamson) that retired from the USAF with over 30,000 logged PIC hours during a carrier spanning from Pearl Harbor thru Vietnam who had flown and instructed in about everything the USAF had during that span. He knew what kills pilots and he passed on to me and others that knowledge and the skills to prevent the worst, you don?t learn these skills buy flying straight and level and you don?t retain them buy flying straight and level. So find your CFI and go out and find the limits of you airplane then practice flying to and beyond those limits often, after a wile avoiding going over the limits become a part of you and you don?t have surprises on turn to final.

Also never settle for OK pilitage, always strive for the perfect approach and landing as well as every other aspect of your flight, be your own harshest critic, I beat myself up over any mistake I make and have to go right out the next day and correct it. Fly often, you will never be competent flying 10 or even 20 hours a year.

I know I am probably preaching to the choir, I think I?ll go flying. I fly an old RV-4 that has no gyros and the airspeed reads 20mph low and does not register any airspeed at landing or stall, still this airplane has flown like this for 27 years and 2348 hours and never stalled on turn to final and regularly lands on short runways, wile this might not be ideal, it just shoes that gadgets don?t fly the airplane
 
Dual Learning

I have taught most of the interesting things that I have done in my life at one time or another, and absolutely agree that we all need an observer/mentor/teacher if we are to get better. This is critically important in our formative years - and the quality of that outside observation is, in my opinion, most important as we are building the habits and skills that we will need throughout our careers.

One thing that we shouldn't overlook, however, is that it doesn't take a CFI certificate to make a good mentor. And mentoring makes a person better at what they do as well! A good instructor is also a student - it is often far easier to see the obvious ways to correct performance errors when we watch others making those mistakes - and then incorporate those corrections in our own performance to make ourselves better. In fact, if you go into teaching and mentoring with that mindset (that YOU are still learning as well), it almost feels like cheating - it is amazing how fast your own skills will improve. Which is not to say that you shouldn't go fly with someone more experienced to work on those advanced skills!

Flying regularly with another pilot, and holding each other to performance standards is an outstanding way to raise the bar. Louise and I fly together all the time, and we almost always debrief even the most casual flight. She learns form me, and I learn more form her than she knows.

That CFI? Most of the folks who have posted here that are current CFI's are clearly in that continuous learning mode - I salute you! But beware that there are also a lot of folks sitting in the right seat who are convinced that they have hit the peak of learning, and have nothing more to learn. Hopefully, they will someday learn that it is simply a plateau. That piece of paper in the wallet is nowhere near as important as the skills of learning as well as teaching. Just last week I was flying with a guy who has been a Naval Aviator, Shuttle Commander, airline pilot - and now makes due racing at Reno....and he was telling me that he JUST got his CFI (based on his military instructing from years ago). Would I have been happy to learn from him before he had the piece of paper in his wallet? You bet - and I have - many times!:D

Paul (Not a slave to technology - I learned to fly in the backseat of a J-3 Cub - but I sure like having it when I need it!)
 
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jetjok said:
How many of us are immediately able to find our position on a chart (IFR or VFR) without the GPS using ground reference or cross radials? How many of us can accurately fly a course line while compensating for a 30kt crosswind? without the plane equipment telling us how to do it?
The same goes for your skills that enable you to fly the plane. How many of us practice stalls and steep turns until we are tacitly able to recognize the onset of a stall? Do you practice pattern work when the winds are challenging to the point that the plane is on course and glideslope throughout the entire pattern?
Click to expand...

Since there are two types of "skills" here, I'll dispense with the cross radials to get my head out of the cockpit, and keep up with the "skill" of flying the aircraft. Happily for me, I realized the skill of operating an aircraft long ago. I became diverse in my younger years by taking aerobatic training in a Pitt's S2B and aerobatic glider. Backcountry in a Maule, combat in the Marchetti SF260, and a bit of a Stearman. Didn't hurt being on an R/C show team either, as we were able to the the first hand effect of stalls and spins into the ground with out actually being aboard.

However, I no longer believe that being skilled in the use of VORs for cross country travel is important. VORs will be decommisioned someday, and thank goodness most new U.S. aircraft don't come with ADF's. Quite frankly, it's my opinion that using VOR's in this day and age...........borders on stupidity! So what do you think of that? :eek: I really have to ask.............why? What's the benefit? They were good for their day, but sure lack compared to the information we can pick up these days.

With a good moving map GPS, all of your airspaces are defined within feet. With XM weather, current TFR's that you may have missed are outlined. And just the weather option itself is more than wonderful. I can now make real time decisions based on much better information than I'd ever recieve just on the ground or from an FSS while in flight. Obstacles are also marked, not to mention terrain. I guess I should mention terrain, considering two aircraft with CFI's and students have crashed into the mountains around here in the last ten years. Since they blew the flight planning, at least a good moving map would have saved the mistake. I know, because we recreated and flew both flights with one of my Garmin moving map GPSs.

So yes, I'm somewhat of a walking data-base in regards to flight into terrain accidents. I no longer believe in the use of radio-nav, as something far superior has came about. GPS & synthetic vision can save lives of passengers even when the pilots screw up. I recognized all this.... back around 1993, and haven't changed my mind. I've become a dedicated and staunch advocate for GPS. Stomp out VORs should be my slogan!

Come to think of it, I should fly with a few CFI's. Some don't have a clue.....what a good GPS with XM weather is all about. They might be quite surprised and actually learn something new! :)

And finally, I'm very happy to see that some CFI's around here, appriciate GPS.

L.Adamson --- RV6A/ Garmin 696 with XM satellite weather
 
L.Adamson said:
However, I no longer believe that being skilled in the use of VORs for cross country travel is important. VORs will be decommisioned someday, and thank goodness most new U.S. aircraft don't come with ADF's. Quite frankly, it's my opinion that using VOR's in this day and age...........borders on stupidity! So what do you think of that? :eek: I really have to ask.............why? What's the benefit? They were good for their day, but sure lack compared to the information we can pick up these days.
L.Adamson --- RV6A/ Garmin 696 with XM satellite weather
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What do I think? I think that you were so busy with your GPS, that you missed the point entirely.
You are entirely correct that GPS and the associated advances in electronic flight presentations are a godsend to all aviators. We obviously have differing opinions on what keeps us sharp, and no amount of discussion here will likely change our collective opinions.
You may find it hard to believe, but there are places in the world that one must still be quite proficient in VOR/DME and ADF operations. You can have all the GPS equipment available, and if it is not authorized for use, guess where that leaves you?
No one advocates disregarding the GPS/EFIS equipment for the sake of using less accurate methods! My position is that all of our acquired skills have a place in assuring our safety! While I may be old fashioned in wanting to keep ALL of my acquired skills up to speed, it certainly does not cross into stupidity!:mad:
Mark Ohlau--RV-6, Garmin 496 with XM Satellite Weather
(See! You win! Yours is bigger):D
 
jetjok said:
What do I think? I think that you were so busy with your GPS, that you missed the point entirely.
You are entirely correct that GPS and the associated advances in electronic flight presentations are a godsend to all aviators. We obviously have differing opinions on what keeps us sharp, and no amount of discussion here will likely change our collective opinions.
You may find it hard to believe, but there are places in the world that one must still be quite proficient in VOR/DME and ADF operations. You can have all the GPS equipment available, and if it is not authorized for use, guess where that leaves you?
No one advocates disregarding the GPS/EFIS equipment for the sake of using less accurate methods! My position is that all of our acquired skills have a place in assuring our safety! While I may be old fashioned in wanting to keep ALL of my acquired skills up to speed, it certainly does not cross into stupidity!:mad:
Mark Ohlau--RV-6, Garmin 496 with XM Satellite Weather
(See! You win! Yours is bigger):D
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware that some parts of the world still use ADF, and have no WAAS. I argue with them too. :) In their opinion, GPS should only be used as a backup. Afterall, it's going to fail............ a lot, according to their views.
In fact, most pilots from even the UK have a much dimmer view in regards to use of GPS.

Yep, the stupidity remark of mine, does raise some eyebrows. Yet, I was told by an instructor that I should be setting the OBS before every flight, and that I should even be triangulating my direct GPS routes with VORs. In reality, most flights are not exactly direct, but perhaps you see the point. I really got ticked when he implied that I just push direct and go for it. When in fact, I plan each long distance flight with a flight planner at home. This guy was telling me, that I didn't have a right to be a pilot if I wasn't keeping up on the skills of using the VOR system. At the same time, he wasn't too familiar with the use of WAAS, and some of the differences it's made.
Perhaps he alone, has gave me my bad attitude...

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Great post Terry.

It alarms me these days when I see You Tube et al video links with normal straight and level flight, and the skid ball well out of the posts.
 
L.Adamson said:
Yep, the stupidity remark of mine, does raise some eyebrows. Yet, I was told by an instructor....

Perhaps he alone, has gave me my bad attitude...
Click to expand...

So, how about you ignore said "instructor", call him stupid and leave everyone else out of your implied stupidity remark? A CFI with some weird old school habits does not mean that others who may prefer VOR/ADF nav to GPS (for whatever reason) are automatically stupid.
 
VOR's are stupid? "IF man were meant to fly?" Harrumpph! Harrumph! Buddy, they're not that big a deal & if you can't remember how to use one, stay away from my airspace. Can you be any more pompous?
 
OK folks, once the "stupid" word starts getting bandied about with implications for VAF members, things are getting silly. Consider this a moderator's warning - this one will be locked quicker than you can say "Clear" if you don't keep it civil.
 
aerhed said:
VOR's are stupid? "IF man were meant to fly?" Harrumpph! Harrumph! Buddy, they're not that big a deal & if you can't remember how to use one, stay away from my airspace. Can you be any more pompous?
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Okay........

Let's get down to the basics here. You fly in the Big Sandy, Wyoming area. This is in a mountainous region, as is Salt Lake City, where I'm from. VOR's are "line of sight", and very effected by mountains, depending on altitude.

My preference is GPS; and except for a hand-held nav/com........I don't have nav radios. Never said I forgot how to use one. I just see little point in doing so.

So really, what advantage safety wise, would VOR's have over my terrain data-base GPS..... in your airspace?

Actually, I've been flying your airspace for many years. Jackson, YellowStone, Afton, Evanston, Kemmerer,etc.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
stalls and recurrent training

Great comments. I agree with all of them except the comment about dark ages.
Tools are tools for safe flight...use them all.
 
Suppose fer instance that we go selective availability without warning? Sure, for all around use it's GPS, but having flown with/talked to scads of pilots I've found that if a guy can't use a VOR, it's almost guaranteed that he also can't read a chart fully, etc. I know cowboys that know every rock from jellystone to Rock Springs, but if you turn them loose on civilization they will bust every airspace in sight. I've flown with 430 button wizards who don't know what mountain range they are looking at. It's all part of situational awareness and any tool a new pilot plays with that adds SA skills and ability has got to be good.
 
aerhed said:
Suppose fer instance that we go selective availability without warning? Sure, for all around use it's GPS, but having flown with/talked to scads of pilots I've found that if a guy can't use a VOR, it's almost guaranteed that he also can't read a chart fully, etc. I know cowboys that know every rock from jellystone to Rock Springs, but if you turn them loose on civilization they will bust every airspace in sight. I've flown with 430 button wizards who don't know what mountain range they are looking at. It's all part of situational awareness and any tool a new pilot plays with that adds SA skills and ability has got to be good.
Click to expand...

Okay, so we go selective availability............all the sudden. Of course my GPS's have not lost a signal since 17 years ago. But that's besides the point, even if a VOR is out of service or decommsioned. I'll have to heartily disagree with your VOR chart analogy. For starters, all my charts a current. When coming up with a new flight plan, I always consult the charts as well as my AOPA flight planner. Charts just have more detail. I'm also subscribed to Flight Guide online, as well as the book version with updates. When the plan is all figured, it is then entered into the GPS. Numerous friends of mine, do the same thing. Generalizing that most GPS users will punch direct and go............is just that. It's not the norm, and no evidence to support it, .............since GPS is used very widely these days.


I plan better and more efficient routes than were ever possible with VORs. And I don't intend to stick my head into the cockpit to start triangulating waypoints that are not in line from VOR to VOR. That particular instuctor suggested I do so. That's nuts!

In the meantime, combining my GPS route with a sectional on my kneeboard, as well as what I see on the ground, I have excellent awareness of exactly where I'm at. Should a engine or other failure appear, I have an instant choice of the closest airports with one press of the button.

And yes, I've flown mountains for decades, and have been to plenty of mountain flying courses as well. I doubt I'll have trouble with any mountains ranges, any time soon. But then you never know. Seems we lost a real mountain flyer, mountain flight instructor, and book writer just about a year ago. In reality, GPS is the best thing to come along in regards to mountainous areas. For IMC/IFR conditions, synthetic vision is even better. Those two tools provide awareness that VOR users could have only wished for, back in the "good old days". I should know, because I sure have lots of accident reports to prove just that. We'd average three a year, just in my part of the mountainous woods.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Seems we lost a real mountain flyer, mountain flight instructor, and book writer just about a year ago.
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You're talkin about Sparky. He had a borrowed airplane full of camera equipment and was shooting the scene of his last accident when he did it again. Don't have much to do with VOR's. I don't insist anyone use VOR's, or even have a VOR installed. It's just my experience that guys who 'don't wanna learn em' are sketchy on other stuff as well. Triangulation? Takes about 30 seconds and 2 fingers on a chart. Assures you have reception of at least 2 stations and bearings. Is that important? I dunno. who cares? It's a cross-check, like you do with all your other instruments, promotes concentration & awareness. Do you need it? Probably not. I get in strange airplanes all the time & sometimes I'm there before I figure out half the avionics. They're all just toys until the weather pinches you below the ridge-tops, then all of a sudden you want to know exactly where you are. Your GPS will tell you, but if you already knew you are ahead of things. I consider VOR stations just like peaks, valleys, towns, etc. Just another ID point to confirm as I'm grindin' through the granite. Also, it's good to be able to receive on a VOR for FSS. Lots of ground out here where that's the only way you'll hear anyone. Suppose you need help? Never heard a SIGMET on GPS, have you?
 
Tools in the bag

When your EFIS blows up and you're far from home, you won't freak out if you know how to read a chart & track a VOR.

Just like when you fly a nice close pattern, you won't freak out when your engine quits after you reduce power on the downwind leg.

Be a Boy Scout. (or Girl Scout, but the only thing I learned in Girl Scouts is how to make bead crafts. Boys learned the fun stuff.) ;)
 
INSTRUCTORS

Regarding Pauls post, I'll bet that new CFI doesn't spend much time looking at the panel in his Cassutt, and virtually NO time looking inside in the Sea Fury on the course at Reno. Military pilots, part 135 and 121 instructors do not require instructor ratings. Many of them maintain a CFI, but that does not necessarily make them better instructors.
If you learn the basics first in a J3 with the airspeed and altimeter covered up, you are much less likely to stall your RV turning base to final.
 
aerhed said:
They're all just toys until the weather pinches you below the ridge-tops, then all of a sudden you want to know exactly where you are. Your GPS will tell you, but if you already knew you are ahead of things. I consider VOR stations just like peaks, valleys, towns, etc. Just another ID point to confirm as I'm grindin' through the granite. Also, it's good to be able to receive on a VOR for FSS. Lots of ground out here where that's the only way you'll hear anyone. Suppose you need help? Never heard a SIGMET on GPS, have you?
Click to expand...

Actually, SIGMETs do display on my GPS. I use XM Satellite weather and I'm ahead of the weather game for hundreds of miles in the distance. I know the weather and winds at the destination. I know the weather conditions of most airports on the route. I get updated altimeter settings. I can see the weather patterns in flight, as if I'm looking at a computer on the ground. This system is much better than calling the FSS because it's in real time and continuous. And since the coverage area is so large if I zoom out, it's very easy to make in flight decisions far in advance when it comes to weather. Oh.......the GPS also displays current TFR's and a full discription.

As to "help", I have satellite tracking with a 911 feature, that sends an instant alert with GPS bearings. That means I don't file flight plans either, and certainly don't have to call an FSS before flights for weather briefings. I use to do all that, years ago, but no longer. I'm being tracked on every cross country flight. If there is a problem, someone will know. Picking up the weather on the internet before flight, and getting continual updates in flight is much better than the old system of calling an FSS.

If a GPS gives up for some reason, I have another. If two of them blow, then I have a handheld nav/com. However, not even one GPS has blown yet. I've owned six aviation GPS's since 1993.

So.............basically, I have no need for the VOR system. I don't need double checks, as my awareness is as good as it get's. If the lakes and roads don't jive with the GPS & sectional chart, then something is truely amiss.
And of course, the GPS is also managing the fuel computer. It's always within a quart or so, after every flight.

Other than that, my panel is a basic six pac. No glass at the moment. But I might get one of those new Sporty's nav/comms just for the heck of it. It actually displays glideslope.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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