N

N131RV

Well Known Member
Last night I received several phone calls from folks all over the country. One was Steve Formhals. He called some of his buddies and arranged to have them come and help.

I had called my friend Bob Padgett and he and a couple friends also came to help. My hangar neighors Julius and Dale also offered. Thomas Terry (sp?) and Bill (sorry forgot your last name) helped as well.

I wish I had written every name down, I am so embarrassed to have forgotten so many. Please forgive me folks, you have my deepest thanks.

When I got out there this morning, one of the neighbors with a construction company loaned us a hi-lift forklift and a driver. Everyone pitched in. All in all, at least ten people showed up to help, though not all at the same time.

With the forklift and all the help, getter her back "upright" was a simple thing.

We used the forklift to tow her (on the mains) back to the hangar where she awaits the arrival of the insurance adjuster.:(

The damage is extensive. It will be a long time (possibly never) before she flies again.

I am just grateful I am "walking and talking". It could have been so much worse.

Once again, thanks everyone.
 
Parts & airplanes can be replaced. Glad you are okay, really happy you have insurance!

Any thoughts about what happened? How fast were you taxing / rolling out? Rough field? Did you have the stick back all the way?

I'm not looking for fault, just to help others.
 
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Thank you for the update, Joe.

If you need any additional help don't hesitate to email me or call. I can fly down there in about an hour and am at your service.

Best,
Doug
 
Just a quick bit of FYI...when you start dealing with the insurance adjuster make darned sure you take a realistic view of the damage and the cost to repair. Simply using the cost of replacement parts from Van's (or whomever) won't suffice. You either need to have an experienced shop do a good quote (preferably more than one) or spend time looking at each little bit of repair work. For example, much of the damage will need to be "undone" just to get back to a zero point where you can start repairs. Don't underestimate this as many times the labor is very intensive. Even removing and engine takes a good number of hours and those hours aren't free (at least not from me) :)

Speaking from experience here, we've done a number of insurance repair jobs, and countless quotes for repairs. Labor is normally what causes the airplane to be totaled. Parts are cheap, time is not. 75% of the repair quotes I've done have resulted in a totaled plane, even for relatively minor looking damage (such as the garden variety ground loop/prop strike).

I have no idea of what your plane looks like, but after dealing with others in similar situations, it's rare to have a estimate come in under $40K for even small amounts of work. Would you believe it can cost between $3-7K just to do a windshield?!?!

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause any further heartache as you've probably been through enough. But, I have seen people say "that part only costs X $$'s, and it's easy to replace". Not so, if main longerons are bent, or the 604/704 bulkhead is wrinkled, then you're talking some really major surgery. A complete empennage is nothing and very easy. Forward of the 605/705 (rear spar attach points) is where even minimal damage can and most likely will cause a total of the plane, depending on your insurance situation.

One thing I can say, is that after dealing with a couple different insurance companies I've been duly impressed. All have been very fast with payment to the builder and us. They have overall been very fair with both and relatively easy to work with.

Hopefully you come out ok in this. Like others have said, metal can be replaced, bodies can't.

Have a good holiday,

Stein.
 
To add to Stein's comments

It may work to your advantage to end up buying a replacement plane.
 
If you need another estimate, call Crotts Aircraft 620-227-3553 in Dodge City and ask for Mike.
They have built approx 15 RVs, most as a builders assist program.

Glad you are ok, coulda been much worse.
 
Damages

Thanks everyone for the update about costs, etc.

I already have a fellow working up an estimate.

Off the top of my head, I see about $40-$50k in damage.

1. Prop is TOAST. $6500
2. Engine needs removal, teardown, inspect, assemble, replace. $5000-$15000 depending on internal state. Maybe more.
3. Right wing has repairable damage (replace forward outer skin, wingtip and two ribs). Estimate 50-70 hours labor plus parts. $2000-$3000
4. Vertical stabilizer and rudder damaged. I have a new rudder kit, don't have estimate for repairing VS, but probably at least $1000.
5 canopy and windshield destroyed, a biggie. $5000 (mostly labor)
6. The real, real, real, REAL bad news. The main longerons are busted right where the roll bar attaches and the main cabin sides are displaced and buckled. At least $20k (or more). The forward cabin floor is buckled as well.
Probably easisest just to find an unwanted QB fuse kit and put all my shiny bits on it. :(
 
phew

I'm so glad you are alright. Like the guys said... you can replace metal... not you though. From the post, it looks like a QB is in order.... once you bend a plane... it's never the same. Whenever you feel like it... and you dont have to if you dont want to... We would be interested as a group to know some particulars to see what we can do to learn from it... new style gear fork etc... any mods, cg.. etc.... I know what I'm going to do to my nosewheel strut when I get to that point but I'm always here with an open ear or if you have any questions, I will do whatever I can to help you.
So glad you are alright.
Best
Brian Wallis
404-405-1315
 
another thought

Joe,

Glad you're okay. That is most important.

Regarding the plane, see if you can buy it back from the insurance company (deduct the cost from the settlement). You may end up getting the airframe for pennies on the dollar. This way you can recover most of the high dollar items like the engine and panel. It is likely the panel and components are fine. The engine is likely okay too if it was turning at low RPM at the time of the prop strike.

If it works out your replacement plane may end up costing you nothing in additional funds.

Good luck. And as someone else mentioned, when you're up to it, give us a report as to what happened.
 
Egress from the airplane...

For future safety concerns, I would be interested in hearing how you got out of the upside down airplane. I assume it was resting on the canopy. Was it a slider or tip up? How difficult was it?

Glad you're ok!
 
Joe,

I just wanted to say it is admerable that you are sharing your information concerning your accident with us. We can all learn from each others experiences. It takes a special person to want to help others learn in the middle of the "lesson".

Thanks.
 
N131RV escape (getting out)

[email protected] said:
For future safety concerns, I would be interested in hearing how you got out of the upside down airplane. I assume it was resting on the canopy. Was it a slider or tip up? How difficult was it?

Glad you're ok!
Click to expand...


N131RV is a slider. My main problem for the first few seconds was disorientation. Unless you have practiced hanging upside down in darkness after a tumble and violent impact, you WILL take a minute or two to figure out where your hands and feet are. :) My brain "felt" I was still right side up and my hands kept reaching the wrong direction for the first few tries.

I'll write up a complete post mortem at some point, but escape was not difficult. I initially tried to punch out the canopy, but I ended up bruising my knuckles. That stuff is tough!

I was able to wriggle around and kick the canopy out with my feet. First kick shattered it and subsequent kicks made the hole big enough to squeeze through feet first, on my back. Unbeknown to me, while I was kicking out one side, the other side had already shattered and I could have escaped in that direction with little effort.

Hope this was illuminating, may you never have to learn it first hand.
 
RE:Thanks.....

Joe

Thanks for your efforts to undate so close to the incident. I just can't imagine the trauma ..mental/physical.. this has had on you and your family. I think you courage is to be commended during/directly after/and post accident.

Just two bits of advice......as if you haven't been inundated already.....:Take a will deserved holiday with friends and family away from the plane. Second forgive the well meaning souls ..such as myself...who have used your thread to make POINTS about there long held notions about these events.

I am just happy that one of my RV family members is able to walk from such an event and with dignity/fortitude/knowledge give a report.

So Joe, I wish you and your family a happy holiday and a much deserved HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Frank @ SGU RV7A....ndy....bgc.......
 
N131RV said:
Thanks everyone for the update about costs, etc.

I already have a fellow working up an estimate.

Off the top of my head, I see about $40-$50k in damage.

1. Prop is TOAST. $6500
2. Engine needs removal, teardown, inspect, assemble, replace. $5000-$15000 depending on internal state. Maybe more.
3. Right wing has repairable damage (replace forward outer skin, wingtip and two ribs). Estimate 50-70 hours labor plus parts. $2000-$3000
4. Vertical stabilizer and rudder damaged. I have a new rudder kit, don't have estimate for repairing VS, but probably at least $1000.
5 canopy and windshield destroyed, a biggie. $5000 (mostly labor)
6. The real, real, real, REAL bad news. The main longerons are busted right where the roll bar attaches and the main cabin sides are displaced and buckled. At least $20k (or more). The forward cabin floor is buckled as well.
Probably easisest just to find an unwanted QB fuse kit and put all my shiny bits on it. :(
Click to expand...

Check your HS carefully, it takes quite a shock when the VS hits the ground. I found a couple popped rivets, got worried about the load on the elevator attach brackets and junked the entire thing. With regard to the spread longerons, forget repairing the fuselage. Van's had a QB on the shelf and it shipped within days.

Think long and hard about totalling it. The rebuild will always be a "repaired wreck" in the log book. If I had to do it over, I would go new and try to buy the wreck back from the insurance company for the instruments and whatever else can be salvaged.
 
New or Rebuild?

David-aviator said:
Check your HS carefully, it takes quite a shock when the VS hits the ground. I found a couple popped rivets, got worried about the load on the elevator attach brackets and junked the entire thing. With regard to the spread longerons, forget repairing the fuselage. Van's had a QB on the shelf and it shipped within days.

Think long and hard about totalling it. The rebuild will always be a "repaired wreck" in the log book. If I had to do it over, I would go new and try to buy the wreck back from the insurance company for the instruments and whatever else can be salvaged.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Interesting. I had never intended to sell it, but things do change.
If I had time and the materials available, I could make her airworthy in pretty short order.

A question for you D.A.Rs out there. If I took all the serviceable parts from N131RV, added new parts from Vans (or somewhere else) and created a "new" airplane, would it be legal to do so?

And, just to add fuel to the fire: Should it come back to life as a taildragger?
 
Yes, go taildragger

N131RV said:
And, just to add fuel to the fire: Should it come back to life as a taildragger?
Click to expand...

Since you asked the question, my opinion is Yes, if you are going to fly it off of turf runways. Our airport has 3 turf and one main paved. The airport does not like tricycle gear landing on the turf which I do not with my RV-6A. As an engineer I feel a tricycle is not as well suited for grass as taildraggers are. I fly my Cessna 140 off the grass all the time. I also do not drive my Saturn through muddy roads but take my 4 wheel drive truck when driving out in the country dirt roads.
These are my opinions and other may disagree, which is fine.
 
Original documentation and taildragger.

N131RV said:
A question for you D.A.Rs out there. If I took all the serviceable parts from N131RV, added new parts from Vans (or somewhere else) and created a "new" airplane, would it be legal to do so?

And, just to add fuel to the fire: Should it come back to life as a taildragger?
Click to expand...
Joe, Technically if you use major parts of the old airplane, the new one should carry the paperwork and serial number from the original. The final determination would be up to the inspector.
My "opinion" is to go with taildragger. But I'm biased in this respect.
 
What constitutes "major parts"?

Mel said:
Joe, Technically if you use major parts of the old airplane, the new one should carry the paperwork and serial number from the original. The final determination would be up to the inspector.
My "opinion" is to go with taildragger. But I'm biased in this respect.
Click to expand...

Since it looks like the fuselage will have to be replaced, and panel, interior, paint and FF don't count, how much else would have to be "new" to qualify as a new aircraft, in your opinion? Not splitting hairs, just curious.

Thanks,
 
Normally wings and empennage are considered as major parts. Since you did build your original wings and empennage, they would still be considered within the 51% rule. This is where the "grey" area is.
If you do plan on using a new serial number, you will have to have documentation for registering a "new" aircraft. And of course, the old A/W certificate will have to be surrendered as "destroyed".
972-784-7544 if you want to talk about it.
Of course, as others have said, the main thing is that you are OK!
 
Taildragger for turf?

As a 6A pilot I would say yes. An objective analysis of this accident really is in order. I assume that you can identify the spot that caused the tipover.

Was the surface soft? Did it receive recent rain?

Did it have holes or ruts?

If the nosewheel pant did not break allowing the bottom of the gear leg to dig in then that makes the issue of A models on turf even worse. Or simpler if the real causal factor is identified.

I made one turf landing several years ago before I knew about the tipovers. No way will I land on turf now. There really is no need for me to do so. Yes there are folks who do it successfully.
 
N131RV said:
A question for you D.A.Rs out there. If I took all the serviceable parts from N131RV, added new parts from Vans (or somewhere else) and created a "new" airplane, would it be legal to do so?

And, just to add fuel to the fire: Should it come back to life as a taildragger?
Click to expand...

I'm not a DAR, but we've done some insurance rebuilds and these are my opinions only...

The re-use of parts that had previously had an airworthiness certificate issued against them is somewhat of a grey area, but I think technically as long as said parts were 51% amateur built (especially if they were built by you, and you can prove that), then they could be used. Now, there is a huge difference between could and should. David pointed out the tail taking a good whack. Empennages are so easy and fast to build I wouldn't even goof around with the old one, just go get a new one (hency my RV6 having an empennage from an RV7 on it). Wings can be purchased as a QB - so I can't think of a good reason to re-use old ones, given the fact that the 704 bulkhead is matched to the spar. Sometimes damage that appears minimal is not. Even the smallest wrinkle can be an indicator of fairly substantial structural damage.

The above comments assume a tranplant to a new fuse/entire bird. If just repairing the old bird, then I think Mel is dead on and the old paperwork would apply. The last one we did was entirely rebuilt from the rear spar attach forward, and a new empennage. That left only the original part of the plane being the fuse from the rear spar attach to the tail. Not much of the original plane, but it still carried the original paperwork and is now flying as the original with very little of the original parts left!

Overall, let 'em total the plane - buy back the salvage if you want. But, if you had a good policy and it were me, I'd just grieve the loss for awhile, then go order a new QB kit, new engine, and of course lots of new avionics! :)

Oh, and just to back Mel up....TD for sure - but again I'm a little biased!

Cheers and Happy Holidays! Have a good Chirsmahannaquanzaramadon!

Stein.
 
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