A

Andymatthews

I'm New Here
I am in the process of building a 7 but in the mantime I am looking at buying a 4 or 6 with a friend. I came across a couple of 4's for sale that meet my price range but my concern is that one of the goals I have is to teach my kids to fly (I was a CFII) in the aircraft and never having sat in the back seat of a 4 I don't know if it is really feasible to teach from the back seat.
Has anybody tried to do it? If so what challenges were there? Was it significantly harder than you expected? Any help gratefully received.
 
Do you want insurance on the hull? I recently checked into giving some instruction in my 8 to check out a new 8 owner friend and found the insurance to be a problem. You either don't insure or pay about $5000/year for full coverage as if you are a commercial operator doing it full time. No in between. As to using a 4 or 8 as a primary trainer, I think its questionable due to their relative high performance.
 
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Not true! (in my case)

Contact Ginny Estes at NationAir. ([email protected]) Tell her "Vern sent you."

She told me a about a 'teach one or two' deal that was a whole lot cheaper.

A friend teaches some including his family members from his RV-4 and has lived to tell about it.

Blind landings are typical for IPs in many taildraggers, T-6s for example. Just have a high level of proficiency and sit as high up as you can. Make sure you can see the airspeed from the rear. Make sure the rudder pedals are really useable for you. That flap handle/seat belts/ sometimes gets in the way. Hang on tight!

The side by side config is a much better teaching platform.
 
Depends on the IP and the student. A full control rear seat in a 4 or 8 flown by a former T-38 IP with a highly capable student.... very doable. I have not however seen a 4 or 8 with rear seat brakes! No brakes back there and now you have a safety compromise.

A less capable IP + Average or below average student + no rear seat brakes + a little gusty crosswind = bent metal and cuss words and stomping around with you fists clenched waiting for the FAA and NTSB guy to show so you could chat before leaving the incident area. They will want to see all your paperwork and logs so make sure everything is in order and up to date. :D
 
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I am quickly getting the idea that the 4 is not the way to go. I had completely forgetten that there were no brakes in the back - clealry makes it a non-starter. Thanks for all the replies - this is an excellent forum.
 
Andy...

....don't give up on the -4....you'll never know just what you're missing. Get some Citabria time and buy the -4...it's so much easier to handle. My buddy flew and landed his -4 from the back seat with me in the front and got some -6 tailwheel time with another friend. He's now soloing his -4 as a student pilot...with around 250 hours, mostly heavy ultralight time, including taildraggers.

Regards,
 
I am reluctant to give up on the 4 as everything I read says other than being a less than optimal training platform it is the airplane for me so...one last question on this topic, anyone know if there are any RV-4's that have added brakes in the rear cockpit? Is there a mod kit for it?
 
I just went through the same problem. I was about 30% along on my -4 when my son tossed a monkey wrench into the works! He decided he wants to learn to fly, so I sold my -4 project and bought a -6. I am basically starting over. However, the time I lost on the tail and wings is being made up on the fuse (just sent spar carry-through bulkhead back to Van's and told them to build a quick-build fuse for me :D).
 
Forward vis is over rated!

Guys,

I taught several licensed, tailwheel experienced buddies to fly their RV4's from the "pit". However comma, I wouldn't teach new students from the pit of a -4 as it wasn't designed for it. That's not to say it would be impossible, I just wouldn't recommend it. Get them soloed first in a Cessna 140 or Tcraft equivalent, then I might consider it.
I have given dual from the pit of the F16D, Decathlon, Husky and Scout with no problems but all had rear brakes, rudders and throttle.

BTW, I never carried Hull on my RV4 unless I was going to the Bahamas, just ground/taxi. In 12 years the savings bought alot of fuel...

Rob Ray
HR2
(there's no substitute)

PS: Pierre, I just got back from Clan William, South Africa visiting my buddy Johan and advising him on purchasing a Rocket down there, what a great country!Flew His T-6, Scout and Decathlon! Buyadonkey!
 
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Andymatthews said:
I am in the process of building a 7 but in the mantime I am looking at buying a 4 or 6 with a friend. I came across a couple of 4's for sale that meet my price range but my concern is that one of the goals I have is to teach my kids to fly (I was a CFII) in the aircraft and never having sat in the back seat of a 4 I don't know if it is really feasible to teach from the back seat.
Has anybody tried to do it? If so what challenges were there? Was it significantly harder than you expected? Any help gratefully received.
Click to expand...
Is it all or nothing? I mean, couldn't you get them through a few solos in a rental trainer and then move to the -4 for the remainder? Even with that, though, I think the -6 is a better choice, and those too are a buyer's market these days.
 
It appears like I can get a lot more RV 4 for around 50-55K than I can for an RV6 that is similar in age, engine, etc. Although there was nothing scientific about my research the equivalent -6 seems to be around 70-75K which is just too much for my pocketbook. Is that a fair representation of the market or am I missing something?
 
The engine, prop, panel, interior, and paint job really drive the price. Many of the 4s you are looking at tend to have less of these things at the high end. 6s often have a little more money in them. Some of the recent build 7, 8, 9s have well north of 75K in the above list. Little surprise you see finished aircraft over 100K.
 
Well, I learned to fly my RV4 with an instructor in the backseat, without rudder or throttle, and it worked. I'll just copy my first post to Doug here:
A little background: D-EEES first flew on March 04th this year with an experienced professional test pilot (RV4-builder as well) at the controls with no problems at all. 5 days later my buddy Georg, flight instructor and Tempco Swift /Yak experienced, but not RV-addicted took the ship up and became familiar with it very soon. So there had been 2 pilots in that RV, but the poor builder still on the ground…
I build the RV during a 4.5 year period and 4059 hours, started in August 2002 with no flying license. As you might guess, there was a lot of things to learn building it, as well as there was a bunch to do to get my license at the local airstrip. In May 2004 I earned my motorglider license, while at home the empennage and wings had been done. September the same year I extended the license to a full PPL with hours in Cessna 172, Diamond Aircraft Katana, Robin DR400 and Piper PA 28.
With all that done, I was eager to complete the RV asap and put flying to the backburner. All in all I arrived with a completed RV4, 45 hours of flight time and no taildragger experience at all except the old motorglider I learned with 3 years ago, last stick-time in August 2006. So quiet obvious not a very comfortable cushion to do my first solo. I had a plan in my mind how to get prepared, something like: First fly something, step up to a PA18, get some practice with another taildragger, go to an airport with at least 3000 ft runway and so on, but things changed…
11th of March: I was hanging around at the hangar and suddenly an RV9 came in, he read about the first flight at vansairforce.net and wanted to say hello. I talked him over to pick me up and let me feel out the handling of the 9, because I thought it would be quiet similar to my -4. As a benefit, Georg took the -4 and we made some air-to-air pics. Wow, big improvement, the poor builder flies side by side with his holy cow :eek:)
We have March and the weather was amazingly good for this time of the year, only 3-5 knots wind straight on the runway and the forecast told us that it will stay that way all week long. I’m a little too heavy to jump into the rear seat of my RV, but Georg would be a passenger well within the envelope, so he suggested to sit behind me and ‘talk me down’. Yes, memories came up from bad movies……but the RV ran well, weather was perfect, the instructor was courageous (crazy??) and I KNEW that I learn best the hard way, so I took a deep breath and jumped in. Sun was going down and the wind disappeared, peaceful silence everywhere, time to change that and fire up the engine.
Taxi was no problem, I read about taildraggers a lot, was prepared to give right rudder and had a clear picture of what will happen, pushed the power lever slowly forward and…..****, what’s up, too much input on the rudder, correct, overreacted, poor Georg with no rudder an no throttle behind me, corrected again, wow, very sensitive, tailwheel still on the ground, another correction, runway halfmarker passing by, all of sudden the preacher-like voice of Georg : “Just a little forward stick, let the tail come up and take it away at 60 KTS, I have control, you have the rudder”.
Said, done, airborne!
OK, that was a big surprise, no comparison to the old motorglider, the rudder inputs of the RV are just 1/10 to the inputs the motorglider asked for, lesson learned. We climbed out and when I took a short look to the airspeed indicator we where going 120 KTS and up, up, up. Impressive! Time to feel out the controls: Aileron very light, and extension of your thoughts like the promotion DVD told me a 1000 times, elevator stiff, trim sensitive, time to slow down and lower the flaps. 70 KTS, 1200 revs, first notch, and I had not enough power to pull it up to second notch, asked for help from behind, second notch. Lesson learned: slow down to 65 KTS, engine to idle, no problems with pulling flaps to 40 degrees. As soon as the engine turns more than idle there is too much pressure to get the flaps out. No problem if you know that, but….
OK, now the hardest part: Landing. Meanwhile the sun was down to the horizon and we decided to come in 09 instead of 27 because you hardly where able to see something against the sun. Pattern was no problem, I had the numbers from Georg’s flights and added a little extra margin for the passenger, over the numbers with 65 KTS, only the toes on the pedals to avoid breaking, flare, flare, and that thing flew forever, eating up the runway, settled down a bit to hard, bounces up again, down, OK, now KEEP IT STRAIGHT, hey, STRAIGHT I said, ****, left, right, and all of sudden I slipped off the right pedal, ****. Voice from behind: Go around, full power, accelerate, more, don’t take it up, build up speed, more, gooood, now up and away…..puh, another try….OK, feet up into the pedals, that will never ever happen again! We touched down on Monday, Tuesday,W ednesday the next time, snaking down the runway, but we made it home. That night I was barely able to get some sleep, I was sure that I will never be able to manage that beast………
As I knew from my former flying lessons it’s best to go on as soon as possible to avoid the feeling of fear that can easily build up when you are sitting at home, thinking about what went wrong too long, so we arranged another lesson the next day. Monday, no one at the airport, no visitors, friends and so on. We made 5 landings and they came out better each time. Georg showed me how to stop bouncing when he pushed the stick forward just a little ‘on impact’ to keep the tail up, let the speed bleed off and settle down gently. I tried it by myself and had the picture with the third landing. That evening I was sure that I will be able to do that on my own in summer. I had a much better night.
2 days ago we had another lesson, made three landings (not a single good one, but takeoff and landing was straight with a little bouncing at touchdown). Georg told me to make a power off landing out of 2000 ft to get a feeling of what to do if something goes wrong. I came in with that RV glider, touched down and we both decided that I can do it on my own. 10 landings with my instructor behind me, that was MUCH faster than I ever expected, but I was trusting that airplane a kind of a childish way that I never felt for any aircraft before. I spend so many hours with every part of it, it MUST KNOW that it’s me at the controls and it will be kind. Weather was, blue sky, wind straight in with 10 KTS, no gusts, so this is the day.
Takeoff run was beautiful (for me), trim to neutral was perfect. I pulled the stick back, opened the throttle, pushed the stick at little forward after 100 ft, let the tail come up, had no problems to keep it straight, even had time to look at the airspeed indicator and took off. MAN, THAT THING CLIMBED OUT. I tried to climb out shallow, but nevertheless it was more ballooning than flying and I flew solo the first time, sitting on MY wings, looking out of MY canopy, touching the levers I build, staring at the panel I designed and was feeling like Leonardo Di Caprio in the movie “Titanic”, standing at the ships nose with open arms and yelling out “I’m the king of the world!”.
These are rare days in life, which you will remember forever. All those people along the way, friends by now, came to my mind, all the countless hours in the shop, mostly fun hours, all those bureaucrats that couldn’t prevent this to happen, all in all a feeling of deep satisfaction.
Landing was a little thrilling as ever, the by now familiar bounce that I have to work on said hello, but I came to a stop without brakes with a lot of runway (OK, 2500 ft overall length, plenty for an RV, but just OK for the rookie..). A big hug for Georg, a biiiiig grin that will need some plastic surgery to remove and a big day in life.
 
I a lot of hours in the back seat of -4. Granted this -4 has taller gear legs than most. (do to in flight fire) I must tell you that it is not easy at all to land from the back seat. I can do, but visibility is a problem. If the -4 your are looking at has the older shorter gear legs it is possible, but I do not recommend it for a zero time pilot. Also, I can barely see the air speed indicator or any guages for that matter. I learned to do it in case of any Emergency being my Dad is getting older. Good Luck!
 
switches...

Also remember that you can not reach the mag switches,carb heat, fuel pump etc. from the back. Your student will need to be able to know how to handle an emergency from the first flight.

I have to agree with Smokey, get 'em started in a Citabria or other tailwheel. Maybe 10 hrs or so and then maybe......

John
 
Giving Chase...or, I ain't gettin' in your backseat!

I have checked out three new RV4 pilots (previously tailwheel qualified) by flying chase from my RV4. After a thorough ground briefing of every flight detail and blindfold cockpit checkout, I had them taxi test giving pointers from a handheld radio. Then I started up and lined up in fingertip formation for takeoff. After takeoff I followed them through a series of climbout, slow flight, stall, approach and landing, giving very concise one word corrections if needed and a "no questions asked" if directed to go around. The best advice is to give concise, SA building comm and follow the brief.
It's not for everybody, but anyone who is competent at formation can easily chase the entire mission and watch the landing approach from a much better vantage point in my humble opinion.
All three owners later told me they liked it alot and felt much more confident in the airplane. Since my own first RV flight was an RV3, I can relate...:)

My Dos Centavos...

Rob Ray
HR2

Trivia: there are currently no 2 seat A-10's nor were there P-51's, P-47's, P-38's etc...you can do it!!!
 
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