billdianne

billdianne

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It's cold,raining and I'm bored. So I thought I would try to provoke a discussion on a old myth and its effect on tailwheel RVs.

I read or heard from someone, and I can't remember who, that during takeoff in a taildragger, you cannot gain enough elevator authority while on the ground to nose the aircraft over and also on wheel landing the same is true. So, discounting the use of brakes, what is everybody take on this.
 
Not gonna try it, wouldn't be prudent!

In my Champ I think you could stuff the prop in the ground on a wheel landing with forward stick depending on your speed. I'll not try to prove I'm right on this one.
 
I learned to fly in Cessna 120s and 140s in the mid 1950s. I had a tough time learning wheel landings after "keep the #@%&@ yoke back on your landings" had been pounded into me during my primary instruction. My instructor demonstrated that you cannot stick the Cessna's prop in the dirt with forward stick pressure. He even made me do it once. I'm sure it looked funny, us rolling down the runway with the tail high in the air, stick foward against the stop, but it didn't go over or strike the propeller. I'm also sure that misuse of the brakes would be another matter.

I don't know about other airplanes, but I do know that you can't stick a Cessna 140's nose in the dirt with forward stick pressure alone.
 
Nahhh!

The view over the nose would be nothng but runway long before you could get the prop in the ground on most TW airplanes.

If your tires hit a hole or rut, or you stabbed the brakes - yes. But elevator alone putting you over. I don't think so. I'm sure somebody can prove me wrong.

Put your prop in a vertical position and lift the tail as high as you can. An RV is actually a little heavy, but I've done it with a light Taylorcraft / Cub. You can lift the tailwheel way over your head before the prop gets anywhere close to the ground. If you've got it that high, a prop strike is the least of your worries. The canopy and rudder strikes are much worse! :eek:
 
tailwheel take off myth

It depends on the plane & circumstances. Some planes such as C-120/140 & Globe Swift are more prone to this. I saw a friend dump his Swift on the nose while doing a slow speed taxi on the mains . He liked to keep the tailwheel off the ground as long as possible - changed his mind after he suffered the cost. Cessna 120/140 have a mod that moves the main wheel ground contact forward to guard against nosing over. I have a friend whose name you would instantly recognize (author of many aviation articles and books) that nosed over a friend's J3 at a flyin. IMO the greatest danger is of a prop strike while learning wheel landings. I have had the unfortunate experience of being the instructor in a Citabria 7ECA that had a prop strike due to an overenthusiastic application of forward stick at touchdown. Three thousand hrs of instructor time, much of it tailwheel & the 1st time I ever dinged a plane. It really hurt my feelings. I got too relaxed & paid the price. Stay alert, get the little wheel firmly on the ground ASAP & keep it there with full up elevator all the way to the hangar. Tailwheel planes are not hard to control, but they are very different. They are also a lot of fun. Fly safe,
Dwight Smith ATP,CFI
RV4 - 150 HP, Catto prop
 
Pitching foward increases the exposed area of the horizontal stabilizer to the relative wind to the point where the aerodynamic force of the elevator trying to raise the tail equalizes with the downforce on the stabilizer trying to lower the tail, preventing a nose over with down elevator alone. I remember the very first wheel landing I did in my Champ when learning to fly. I unnecessarily went full foward on the stick at touchdown and it never reached a dangerously nose down attitude. I imagine most TW airplanes behave this way.
 
Although I never tied it on my old Stinson, I have ridden with a buddy in his C185, who used this technique-----

Yes, you can add down elevator until full throw, and the plane wont hit the prop. At least in the C185. Slowly add it---this is aerodynamics. Get into inertia, and all bets are off.

And, Yes, the view of the dirt gets a bit scary:eek:

Apparently, as the tail comes up, the wing presents a lot of flat area to the wind, more than the elevator can overpower. I was told this is an old trick used by bush pilots, missionary pilots, ETC for short field landing.
 
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Not going to happen on take off with full power applied but on rollout at slow speed and idle you could possibly tip the balance with a sudden movement due to inertia and the lack of countering airflow over the stab.

Obviously, if it can be done - someone has already done it.
 
Sorry to disappoint you guys.

But I have seen SEVERAL props converted to mantel pieces by driving them into the runway on take-off.

Some airplanes may not be capable, but many are.
 
The first time I experienced this was with me sitting in the back of my girlfriends rv-4 and landing at Durango, Co. When she pushed the stick forward on touchdown doing a wheel landing, I about had a heart attack cause I thought we were going to nose over. Her instructor was an AG/bush pilot who taught her the trick.
 
When I was a student pilot in the late 1950s, I saw a guy put a Swift on it's nose while taxiing at about walking speed. The position of the elevators had nothing to do with it.

The RV's elevators have good authority. You might be able to get yourself into trouble with it on takeoff, but I think I'll wait for someone else to do it. I'd rather find out from your mistake, not mine.:D
 
different for takeoff and landing?

This is a great discussion.

There seem to be two subthreads, one on takeoff, one on landing. Power setting has two competing effects - one is the nose-over moment from the thrust, but the other is the propwash over the tail giving more control authority.

With full nose-down elevator, the angle for zero lift of the stabilizer-elevator combination is probably about -10 to -15 degrees. Not enough to put the prop on the ground unless there is some dynamics (inertia) helping it. If the nose goes lower than that, the tail is going to make downforce, lifting the nose.

In the prop-strike case I am aware of, brakes were used, so it doesn't count.
 
Notwithstanding a few aircraft like the Bearcat and the Compair turbines (and probably some others) with VERY little ground / prop clearance, I still say that you can't put the prop on the ground with elevator alone.

Can you crow-hop the prop onto the ground by trying to push forward with flying speed? - Yes.

Can you get the prop on the ground by applying reaward pressure on the wheels with thick grass, mud, brakes, etc.? - Yes, and it doesn't matter if the tail's up or not. All you need is inertia - Actually the nosewheel airplanes are probably as, if not more prone to this as the TWs.

Can you put the prop on the ground by driving the airplane into the runway with forward pressure after a botched wheel landing attempt or a bounce? - Yes.

How about on take off with a swerve and side load applied? - Yes, see no. 2 above. And we often try to fix a swerve with brakes, making it worse.

But - by simply lifting the tail too high on a smooth surface on take off or in a wheel landing. Naaahhh... Myth.
 
I'm not going to share the name, but a friend ground the ends off his prop the first time he started his RV-4.
 
Sorry Jeff,

JDRhodes said:
But - by simply lifting the tail too high on a smooth surface on take off or in a wheel landing. Naaahhh... Myth.
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but I have witnessed several. Last one was a lady on first solo take-off in a Citabria. She was used to having the weight of the instructor in the back. Dinged the prop good.
 
I'm certainly not an expert - Mel may be right as usual, BUT...
I'll betcha she got on the brakes when the take-off went bad. Or the prop strike stopped the ground loop that was begining. All those are likely on a first solo.
 
Nope!

JDRhodes said:
I'm certainly not an expert - Mel may be right as usual, BUT...
I'll betcha she got on the brakes when the take-off went bad. Or the prop strike stopped the ground loop that was beginning. All those are likely on a first solo.
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No brakes. I didn't mean to imply it was her first solo. It was her first solo in the Citabria. Take off was straight ahead. She was a very experienced pilot and aircraft owner.

I have witnessed others as well.

If you want to try pushing the stick full forward on take off, go right ahead. Just please don't lead others down this path.
 
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I don't care what anybody says, I know what level flight feels like in my kitfox, when I start to nose over beyond that, either takeoff or landing I'm making corrections to stop it. No I will not even try the full stick forward to see how my aircraft reacts. Things like prop and engine cost too much to replace. Not to mention the pride thing and giving a show to someone on the ground at my expense.
 
Once the tail gets up high enough, isn't the full-down elevator parallel to the ground and thus seeing no relative wind? I'm sure that you could use some momentum to do it, but elevator alone?
 
POWER!!!

I'll believe almost anything about not being able to prang it on landing (including the caveats about inertia).

HOWEVER, with 180hp or 200hp up front, the airflow over the tail is independent of AOA - - which is to say, you have plenty of lift on the tail even as it goes vertical. I have EASILY been able to get my AOA well beyond level, sitting on the ground with brakes set. Scared the P out of me.

Furthermore - a response to the "heavy tail" comment: The tailwheel weight is heaviest on the ground, gets lighter as the tail comes up (try doing a weight/balance to prove this), and become ZERO when the aircraft CG pivots over the main wheels. When the CG is over the mains, it takes but a healthy sneeze to continue the trip to upside-down-land.

Keep the power off, you are probably safe with almost any (gradual) stick angle. Put the power on, watch your prop diameter diminish with forward stick. This is the rule set that I fly by.
 
szicree said:
Once the tail gets up high enough, isn't the full-down elevator parallel to the ground and thus seeing no relative wind? I'm sure that you could use some momentum to do it, but elevator alone?
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First of all, full down elevator is in the neighborhood of 25 degrees. To be level with the ground, the nose would have to be pointed down 25 degrees. Secondly, the "relative" wind is coming from the prop. It will always be the same on the tail regardless of attitude.
 
With my -9, I can hold the brakes and lift the tail as high as I want/dare. I suspect I could nose it over and that is with only 135 HP up front.

Landing is another thing and is all technique. But as others have said, you would have a windshield full of ground long before the prop hits.
 
negative AOA

One more thing - - when the AOA gets negative ("windshield full of ground"), the angle of incidence of the main wing gets negative too, inducing lots of negative lift if you are endowed with good air/ground speed. So what happens (don't ask me how I know) is that the negative lift becomes added weight, the nice forgiving spring-steel landing gear legs splay out, and that nice high prop clearance becomes terrifyingly thin. Just another opportunity for stick-induced prop-trimming.
 
I doubt that you can safely generalize between makes and models of aircraft with different design parameters or even between aircraft of the same make and model, what with differences in weight, balance and circumstance. And on landings, if you touch down hard in some planes the gear will give & you'll find yourself a lot closer to the ground, while in others you'll be back up in the air.
 
n5lp said:
Well, I'm not sure this discussion is going anywhere but the original poster did specify no brakes and brakes or not is a huge difference.
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Larry, you are correct but after lifting the tail with the brakes on, I have released them and done my best to hold the tail horizontal and it is possible but not something I would recommend.
 
Mel said:
Secondly, the "relative" wind is coming from the prop. It will always be the same on the tail regardless of attitude.
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True. I guess I was picturing this whole thing occurring during landing. It seems to me the whole thing boils down to a battle between the propwash and the airflow from forward motion. That is, if you're going slow enough with full throttle you're going over. If you've got enough forward speed, it might be impossible.
 
Tailwheel landings from his masters voice

billdianne;280951 I read or heard from someone said:
This has been around for many years in various forms or another and I think the source comes from the 1940?s. You probably read it (or heard second hand) from the master himself, Wolfgang Langewiesche.

He's kind of mute on the subject of take off's. I suppose he considers them non-controversial. Not so the landing phase.

Here's a quote from his 1944 classic:
Page 307 - "...when the spot arrives at which you want to make ground contact, simply push over forward and "plaster" the front wheels on. Then as you feel the ground, keep right on pressing forward on the stick... And you need not be afraid of pushing forward on that stick. You won't nose over...." He goes on with several caveats.

I have a Steen Skybolt with an IO-540 and if I ever jammed the stick forward with any kind of relative wind over the tail I'd be Mr. Hartzell and Mr. Lycoming?s best friend in short order.
Don Stiver
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GarageGuy, if you met her you would know that he does. But I digress. When I was getting time in a Cub or Champ it was amazing how the instructor was never satisfied with my wheel landings. "Get the nose down!" on every landing it seemed. I never had any thought of seeing how far over I could go.

This may not be relevant but I seem to recall someone who was doing a high power runup in a taildragger and nosed over.
 
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Ron Lee said:
GarageGuy, if you met her you would know that he does. But I digress. When I was getting time in a Cub or Champ it was amazing how the instructor was never satisfied with my wheel landings. "Get the nose down!" on every landing it seemed. I never had any thought of seeing how far over I could go.

This may not be relevant but I seem to recall someone who was doing a high power runup in a taildragger and nosed over.
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A lot of Rockets have kissed a prop on single pilot run ups
tm
 
Perhaps some input from Mr.Taildragger himself would be in order...Mr.Rozendaal????

Mel is right, whether you like it or not it's been done...more than once. While it may be difficult to do in an RV, it's certainly not a constant where you can firmly say "true or false" for every RV, every pilot, every runway and every situation.

This may end up in the area of discussion where you see people say they've landed their RV's in 45kt direct crosswinds - might be possible, but many moons ago I got the road rash scrape marks on my RV wingtip during some particularly nasty xwinds out in SoDak - and the "direct xwind" whatn't near what I see people say they've done in their similar planes; I'm sure they've done it....but then again I'm far having Bob Hoover's skill as a pilot and maybe my plane just doesn't perform like those guys'. I know one thing, I've seen people say they've done things with their planes which I know I can't or won't even try when it comes to landing these things! :)

Anyway, I too have seen many a wall hanging from planes that dinged them on runup, taxi, takeoff and landings.

My 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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