R

Remag

Well Known Member
Ok, I have read all the tailwheel posts about tailwheel steering like; loose chains -v- tight chains -v- solid link etc, however, no one has mentioned fully castoring tailwheel (e.g. no chains at all)

I have been flying my -7 for a little over a month now and during the first 2 hours, I had loose chains and springs. My friend, a former Australian Aerobatic Champ, suggested I get rid of the chains all together and stated, "You will really love it, we took all the chains off the Pitts Specials". From the moment I did it, I loved the feel. The rudder was light and nimble and x-wind landings were nice.

After about 20 hours of flying without the chains, I started to wonder if I was the only RVer in the world who is doing this and searched many RV pics on the net. All had the chains connected. As an experiment, I reconnected the chains and springs and went flying today. The result was that it felt heavy and notchy and I didn't like it at all, so tomorrow they are coming off. I realise the down side will be more brake wear but so be it. The up side is a much nicer feel to the rudder pedals, nice x-wind behavior, less weight and drag (not a big factor).

So... is anyone else doing this? If not, give it a go, "You will really love it".

P.S. I have purchased a Flyboy fork from Vince. I haven't got it yet but it will be here early next week and it will be going on without chains. The service I have received from Vince has been just awesome (I'm not associated with Flyboy Accessories).
 
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Get a Rocket Steering Link

I've been using the 'Rocket Steering Link' (I believe it's from Wayne Haddath). They just work and Wayne is a great guy to deal with - http://www.decisionlabs.com/QuickPl...DF38292D748069D0525670800167212/?OpenDocument .

The steering link is a springs replacement that gives you the feeling of power steering. It is not the same as "no springs". I use the 'rocket link' with Vince's tail wheel (and a tail wheel fairing). All works great!

There are some 'knock offs', but research customer service and support before you go with a similar unit.
 
Another vote for the Rocket Link.

Without any tailwheel steering, if you have lots of turns to make while taxiing, you may be going thru brake pads pretty regularly.
 
I've owned 2 RV-4's, both with the old style non-breakaway tail wheels. '94-'00 & '02-present. Probably less than 10 hours total in all that time with the chains on. I've never noticed any handling issues at all. I took 'em off because it's such a pain to roll the plane backward with the chains on.

Most people think 'what about losing brakes?'; true, but think about how many times you hear about someone having a chain break & ground looping, even with 2 good brakes.

My risk-benefit analysis, for my personal flying, came down on the side of 'lose the chains'. I guess I'll leave the chains on the -7 I'm building, since it has the newer tailwheel, but who knows....

FWIW,

Charlie
 
I'm a "tight Chains" kind of guy - in fact, I like them so tight that I use a Silver Bullet link, and really like it.

That said, I have flown airplanes without chains, had a chain break, etc, and under most wind conditions, it's not a problem. I had never thought about regularly operating an RV without chains, but I don't think I'd have any religious convictions against trying it and seeing how it works in the long term.

As for brake wear, I flew my old Grumman for 23 years with only differential brakes for steering, and only changed pads every other year....

Paul
 
rv7charlie said:
Most people think 'what about losing brakes?'; true, but think about how many times you hear about someone having a chain break & ground looping, even with 2 good brakes. Charlie
Click to expand...

Really? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I have not heard a story of a chain failure induced ground loop. I have had a "chain failure" and it was a non-issue.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I run my chains pretty sloppy loose and I am but a young pup with a TW airplane. I can't imagin a broke chain being much of an issue with the RV7 at least.
 
I think a few of you guys over-emphasize the need for brakes for steering. Even without a steerable tailwheel, brakes are needed only for tight turns. The rudder is still effective with a little prop blast.
 
Looks like the brake pads on the RV-8 I fly are probably going to last about 2 years as well. At the annual , finished earlier this month, there was significant wear of the pads, but looked good enough to run them for one more year. I know I've been pretty hard on them, this being my first year of really serious amount of RV tailwheel flying, and have learned a lot in the ~ 60 hours I've put on the thing these past 12 months, but is that a typical expected service life of brake pads on these RVs? I thought maybe I have just been using them too much.

On the other hand, the Cleveland brakes on my old Cherokee weren't really all that much beefier than the brakes on the RV-8, and I got over 7 years life out of the brake pads on it (single handbrake only) before they had to be replaced.
 
Tail wheel chains

Mel is correct. MOST of the time the rudder does the job until taxi turns are required. Then you either have a tailwheel ( with connection to the rudder) or use your brakes up. I fly an antique with NO BRAKES and a TAIL SKID. Here is the point, a crosswind CAN turn the plane on roll out after the rudder is ineffective. You have two options, gun the throttle to activate the rudder or use the brakes. Since I have no brakes, I use a tail wheel with LOOSE cables to give me some bottom line control on the runway.
 
Thanks for the replies, I was expecting a whole bunch of "Oh no the world is going to end and you will be in a never ending ground loop until your eyes pop out" type replies :)

I find it interesting to note that the Sbach aerobatic plane is designed with a fully castoring tailwheel and no steering or locking for take of or landing etc http://www.xtremeair.de/web/allegati/notizie/19/FLYER SBACH ART JAN 2001.pdf . And I have noted that the Super Cub boys from 'big rocks long props' fame also take off the chains and leave them to fully castor without a problem.

I guess the down side is taxing in cross winds will require more brake or power but this would be similar to a fully castoring RV-xA nose wheel. I do find that taxiing even at just above idle power, full rudder without chains will turn the aircraft gently with no brakes required as Mel has said.
 
Coming from cert planes with rudder+brake steering only (Diamond DA-20 for example) I prefer it in nosedraggers. I'm not at all a fan of steerable nosewheels...don't like the feel or the control, and the wide turning arcs. Brake pads get replaced, I don't mind using them up.

In taildraggers though, I've only flown with steerable tailwheels. Something that might be worth trying... Another idea in the book. :)
 
On my first Oshkosh trip in the RV-8 last year, the locking pin in the tailwheel got stuck due to a metal burr, and I made several landings with the tailwheel unable to lock until I got to somewhere where I could disassemble it and file down the burr. It wasn't really that big of a deal, even to a still wet-behind-the-ears tailwheel RV newbie like me. The ground steering did feel a little goofy to me, so I used the brakes quite a bit, but yeah you can definitely still steer it on the ground with the rudder alone, but the locking tailwheel with a Rocket Link sure does give a nice solid reassuring feel, and only costs $140. Besides, the Rocket Link sure looks cool too.
 
DCat22 said:
Coming from cert planes with rudder+brake steering only (Diamond DA-20 for example) I prefer it in nosedraggers. I'm not at all a fan of steerable nosewheels...don't like the feel or the control, and the wide turning arcs. Brake pads get replaced, I don't mind using them up.
Click to expand...

Agreed. (mostly) I did my private in the DA-20 and then transitioned to renting a Piper Archer. For general taxiing, I don't have much of a preference, but like you said, it's pretty much impossible to spin the Archer on one main like I could with the Diamond.

About the only thing I find better with nosewheel steering is maintaining centerline on takeoff. (translation: I can be lazier)
 
We used to own a DA-40 and I loved the nose gear on it. I love the steering on a Cirrus as well.

Makes me want to take my chains off. I was getting ready to mount the Rocket Link we just picked up, maybe I'll take the chains off and see what that is like before I throw the Rocket Link on..
 
Give it a go Tram, you will love it. I took the chains off again today as advised and the rudder now feels a light as the ailerons again.
 
John Clark said:
Really? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I have not heard a story of a chain failure induced ground loop. I have had a "chain failure" and it was a non-issue.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

Of course it happens. I know a guy that it happened to.
 
no chains?

My opinion... and only mine, is that brakes on a TW airplane are for run ups and parking. The chains help you steer on the ground WITHOUT using the brakes. Granted, the RV steers really well with just the rudder, but no where near as well as a Pitts or other (primarily) aerobatic aircraft with their huge rudders and lightly loaded tails...
Not saying don't experiment... but are you unwittingly teaching yourself a bad habit of relying on brakes again? Thats a nose dragger habit your TW instructor tried to educate you OUT of... It might lead to trouble someday...
Remember, nose draggers have a more favorable CG position when it comes to stabbing at brakes...
The chains were put there (many years ago) to "help" with ground handling... Personally, I appreciate their contribution to the whole endeavor...
Thats my opinion...I could be wrong ;-)

Dennis
28 years in tailwheels
 
I flew a grumman tr2 for a long time and the only steering was with brakes due to a castering nose wheel. I had to land once with a failed right brake, uneventful but not that much fun since the runway only 2400'.
Landing a tw rv wouldn't be fun without tw steering if one or both of the brakes failed. Steering would be minimal or nonexistent once the tail was down and power off. With tw steering you could at least steer while rolling to a stop.
Also, during take off in a cross wind, you need to apply brake to stay straight while rolling until liftoff, which is counter productive, not to mention bad on the brakes.
I'll keep the chains and springs on my rv.
 
More info needed

Flyfalcons said:
Of course it happens. I know a guy that it happened to.
Click to expand...

Ryan, most of us are here to learn and "I know a guy..." responses are not going to help in educating anyone. How about some details like the type of aircraft, the wind and weather, what really failed, and the outcome, was it just embarrasing or was there damage? No names/dates are needed, to protect the innocent, but facts help educate all of us.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I really don't understand the logic behind why anyone would want loose chains. It is fundamentally no different than making the first 30 degrees of rotation left or right in the the steering wheel of your car do nothing.
 
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I guess I don't understand how the risk-benefit analysis of chains vs. no chains works out in favor of no chains (or no TW steering steering at all). The OP mentioned that it makes the rudder feel lighter on the ground. Great if this is your preferred feel, but unless you have extremely weak legs, it's not a practical benefit...and I can't think of any other benefit associated with removing tailwheel steering. But the cost is that you've eliminated one of two available means of directional control once the rudder has lost authority. Yes, brakes work, but what if you're on wet grass and rolling out in a strong x-wind? Brakes will be of little help, and the tire will lock and slide. This happened to a friend in a One Design landing on a grass strip (without significant wind) after disconnecting the tailwheel steering mechanism. On slow rollout, the plane started in one direction, and despite locking up the opposite brake (with full rudder) on the grass, the plane went off the runway and ended up with significant damage. He was a very skilled, many thousand hour TW pilot who had experience with no tailwheel steering in RVs, but never this airplane.

I have another friend who had an in-flight brake pedal failure in his Pitts S-1C, and even with his locking (non-steerable) tailwheel, he went off the runway (on pavement) after the plane slowed enough to lose rudder authority. Another friend plowed the lower wing of his Pitts S-1S through a runway light after a tailwheel chain clip broke and lost steering on one side (pavement). I guess if you're planning on not having tailwheel steering, you'll be on the brakes and spring-loaded to use them delicately, but my preference would not be for this to be my sole means of directional control after a certain speed. Trikes with castering nosewheels are a little different due to their stability.

That being said, I once lost a tailwheel chain clip on one side in my RV-3. I didn't even know it was missing until I was rolling very slowly and noticed that there was no resistance on one side. The plane kept rolling dead straight, and was a total non-event. But even though RVs are much more stable on the ground than other types, I would rather not operate like that. This is obviously an issue personal preference and one of those things where you do what you're comfortable with, and do what works for you. The cost-benefit associated with removing tailwheel steering just doesn't make sense to me.

rocketbob said:
I really don't understand the logic behind why anyone would want loose chains. It is fundamentally no different than making the first 30 degrees of rotation left or right in the the steering wheel of your car do nothing.
Click to expand...

It's so that on high-speed landing roll, directional control can be maintained via the sole use of small rudder inputs (no TW steering), which can be more than sufficient at high speed. It keeps the tailwheel from causing the plane to dart around every time a small input is made. Again, a preference thing, and maybe more suitable on planes that are very sensitive on the ground and/or have a very effective rudder. Both would describe my Pitts S-1S, and I like my loose chains. The rudder can move about ten degrees each direction before engaging the chain.
 
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rocketbob, for me is is simply because of feel. That first 30 degrees with chains feels like a truck without power steering and when you break the detent, all of a sudden, it has power steering again. This is like two stage steering. With loose chains, it's light (taking up slack) then heavy (steering with chains) then light (tailwheel breaks out). Without the chains, it is very light and responsive, if you do need brake to steer, it is very very light with my big toe pushing on the bottom of the brake pedal.

As far as the brake wear goes, if it was a rental plane, I would not like to have the chains removed and the brakes would be abused by renters, however, with my plane, it gets inspected all the time and it is unlikely it would ever go metal to metal. There is always a chance of a hydraulic failure which is a consideration and the reason I put them back on, however, I just couldn't live with the heavy nothcy feel.
 
In about 2400 hours of personal TW experience I much prefer either no chains with reasonably stiff pull springs from the rudder to the TW arms, or currently for the last year and a half in my F1 Rocket I have used the Rocket steering link. The pull springs only, give a nicer feel and slightly easier control in my opinion. I have landed in all seasons and weather and runway conditions and surfaces imaginable. Pavement, grass, ice snow pack, dirt and gravel. When the tail wheel is is up and off the ground , the rudder should feel free and almost as light as the ailerons (at take off and landing speeds). The heavier the weight on the tail wheel , the more positive the link required. Hence a Piper Pawnee or Brave will need chains, but a light RV, Pitts, Emeraude or Rocket does not. In a stiff X wind take off(above the normal limits) I park at an angle 30 or so degrees across the runway pointing into the X wind. As power comes in and the tail lifts off, the rudder then has enough airflow to be effective while turning straight down the runway in the 20 or 25 kt X wind. No brakes needed for take off. Landing is a different matter. It's all a matter of personal preference, technique and comfort. What is right and proven safe for one pilot is not the best for all.

I do not like the bound up feel of chain links like on a C-185 or Pawnee spray plane.

I doubt that I would be comfortable with a totally free castoring tail wheel that had no linkage to the rudder.

I have landed numerous occaisions with zero brakes and the pull spring only linkage from rudder to TW. This has great feel and gently transfers control to the TW as the rudder looses effect on landing. It's just as natural on take off as the rudder gains effect as airflow increases. The Rocket steering link is a somewhat close second.

Happy Landings!

Richard
 
I just recently installed the Rocket link and Screaming Eagle fork, both from Flyboy Accessories and wow, it's like putting power steering on that old 1966 Bronco.

I've been tight chains, loose chains, no chains and solid link and I'd have to say I actually prefer the feel of the Rocket link, I really like the feedback it gives.
 
I just had my tailwheel centering key stick all the way in, giving me a full swivel tail wheel. I certainly like the feel of the loose rudder, but I did have to use my brakes during taxi, something I almost never do. I wonder how it would work on a soft-field without tailwheel steering?

I started with loose chains, but didn't care for that. Now I am a tight chain guy.
 
UPDATE: I just fitted a screaming eagle fork from Vince (without tailwheel steering). WOW! it is so nice and much lighter again. It may even be ok with steering connected back up again. I might try a Rocket Link.

With the screaming eagle fork I can taxi at walking pace and do S-turns only using rudder.
 
tail steering

I have had the rocket lilnk on my -3 for 6 years now, and I love it!:D very positive on the ground and you don't notice it in the air, rudder is very light.
I plan on putting one on my -4 too. :)
 
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