Mike D

Mike D

Well Known Member
This might have already been answered, but I could not find a thread here on it.

With our RV?s capable of some quick cross country, we can find ourselves in some bad areas to have an engine out. Maybe it is because I have been watching too much Discovery channel, but I have started to worry a little about survival if I do manage to land and I am able to extract myself and passenger from the aircraft.

For instance, what would you do if you were over west Texas and had to land in the desert?

Do you carry a survival kit? What does it include? And does it change depending on what you will be flying over? From the survival shows that got me on this topic, it seems a rope, some matches, and a knife are the bear minimums. How about APRS? Spot? ELT? Do you carry water?

Do you follow main highways just in case you have to ditch and you want someone to come to your rescue. I would guess about 20 miles would be all I could cover in a day if I was in good health.

It would really suck to survive the landing, get out of the plane, and die just because I could not survive the environment.
 
huge subject and everybody needs to evaluate for themselves. Also consider amount and type of training. What works for me may or may not work for you.


BTW-Bear minimum in Montana is a 44mag, but I prefer a 45-70 Guide gun or 12ga. ;) :D
 
Thanks to an falling injury (not in a plane), and three months of watching Discovery & History channels, I too, have learned much about survival. :)

I do carry the basics in the plane, including a SPOT, but could certainly use a bit more.......such as water all the time. Unlike my commercial airliner pilot friends and associates who have become use to much more "redundancy", I have this bad habit of flying over treacherous mountain and desert regions. I suppose it's the risk for the beauty of it all; and I don't equate the risk as worse than flying over a populated city in a single engine. Actually, I think it's a bit safer. However, I do keep a watch for dirt roads and meadows constantly, and wouldn't fly mountains at night.

Knowing that anything is possible, I'll take coats along during cooler seasons, even if I'm not wearing them. I do feel quite comfortable with SPOT. In well over a year and a half of cross country flights with it, it hasn't missed that 10 minute beep yet. We check after every flight.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
MT Class

The Montana Dept of Trans - Aviation branch - offers a winter survival course for pilots that is excellent. A day and a half in the classroom by a world class survival expert then a field class where you build a shelter and spend a night out - in January in Montana. It was -15 the morning after my night out. Highly recommend it and I'm sure it's open to anyone. Last year a couple guys flew in from California. Lots of good ideas on survival vests, etc.
 
Spot, for sure...with its 911 button/24 hour a day monitoring

...and either a 9MM or similar. We have a huge Okefenokee swamp in South Georgia/North Florida, teeming with alligators...the reason for a 9MM or more:)

It'd be a shame to survive a forced landing, only to be eaten by a 'gator:eek:

Best,
 
L.Adamson said:
Knowing that anything is possible, I'll take coats along during cooler seasons, even if I'm not wearing them. I do feel quite comfortable with SPOT. In well over a year and a half of cross country flights with it, it hasn't missed that 10 minute beep yet. We check after every flight.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
Click to expand...

So, at 200 MPH you could be over 30 miles from the last SPOT beep.:confused: Personally, I prefer my APRS which beeps every minute or any time I change heading by more than 25 degrees. And it not only provides the last position, but also the airspeed and altitude!:D
 
There have been quite a few good discussions in the past on this topic that you might want to search for. Not trying to discourage current discussion at all....just thought I'd mention it because there are a LOT of good ideas in the archives.

My most important item? The GPS-equipped PLB on my shoulder harness! I don't want to be sitting there alone, shooting at alligators, for any longer than I have to....:)
 
I have been carrying a survival kit from Sportys for a few years. Weighs about 6 pounds.
Also have APRS, PLB, ELT, use flight following, and I am sure to tell a couple people of my plans.
Haven't been carrying a firearm but probably would be a good idea.
Over big stretches of water I wear an ACS life preserver.
 
I guess I have to ask about the legality of carrying a firearm across state borders. My IN CCP is recognized in several other states, but not next door in IL, for example. If I were to go down in a cornfield in the middle of IL (not too worried about fighting 'gators there) on my way to Montana (where I might need protection), the local sheriff might not approve of my 1911 in my flight bag.

Thoughts?
 
Just to clarify, I don't consider a firearm survival gear. I was merely poking fun at the term "bear" vs "bare" minimums in the original post.

my bare minimums for XC flight are:
1. people knowing my flight route and ETA
2. clothing appropriate for the weather at night
3. water
4. knife
5. tape
6. fire starter

items 2-6 in my pockets. anything not on your body may not be available.
 
ronschreck said:
So, at 200 MPH you could be over 30 miles from the last SPOT beep.:confused: Personally, I prefer my APRS which beeps every minute or any time I change heading by more than 25 degrees. And it not only provides the last position, but also the airspeed and altitude!:D
Click to expand...

True............it could be 30 miles. But on the other hand, I have the SPOT's 911 button that say's "I'm screwed now........come and look"....if I or my passenger can push it in flight, or on the ground. It's an instant GPS to satellite position; and it works, as we've accidently already tried this feature.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Anyone done a risk assesment on going down in a remote area? Seems like it might be one of those, more chance dying on the way to the airport things. What precautions do you take for having an accident on a remote stretch of road? Flying from a remote home base might give me a second thought though.

My first survival item for cross country flight is an IFR flight plan or VFR flight following. No substitute for communication and a radar fix.
 
If you go down in a cornfield in California, Iowa or D.C., I'd sure NOT be worried whether or not my local sheriff would like or not like my gun. Any question, just don't carry it concealed and call it a "survival gun".
Water and shelter (jacket, tarp, etc.) are the first things on the list. You can go many days without food. Unless you are dead certain about where you are and your ability to get to safety, DON'T leave your plane or vehicle. So many vehicles have been found and the occupants have wandered off never to be found until too late. Many people get lost every year in the snow or desert and the vehicle gets found fairly promptly but they are nowhere to be found.
That said, my favorite "survival" gun is a FN Herstel Five Seven semi-auto. The barrel is long enough for some range and the cartridge is rifle fast and handgun small. You can carry a lot of ammo for the same weight. The Secret Service is using some of them. As usual: my opinions!:p
 
survival kit

I am concerned about survival,so have spent a lot of time researching and equipping as best I can, budgeting for my best guess of what would be crucial.

my comment here, is that I took my snow boots and extra winter stuff out of the plane last month. As I fly over the ridges here, I see the plateau has a lot of areas with snow until June....and it has been below freezing at night.

Time to re-think 'winter'. You wouldn't last long or go far in soaking wet sneakers.

I've also spent quite a bit of time in the bush fishing etc. I have to say that if I actually wanted to kill something to eat, I'd starve. When I've moseyed off the trail to take a whiz, and seen a grouse or rabbit or deer, it was long gone before I'd ever get a gun up to my eye, even if I had it in my hand, much less slung or holstered while collecting firewood.
now, fending off cougars or grizzlies in the dark, yes, I'd feel much safer if lying there injured for a week!

what's your comfort level, I guess, is the question.
I like the 'Crash-kit' concept.
ONe small lightweight one for survival experts,
.....a more generous one for less experienced folks,
and one for the total novice greenhorn who will die without a microwave and tent.!
You just have to admit, which one am I?
 
Survival gear

This has been discussed at our local Chapt. meeting, and there are a number of opinions.
One is that of wearing a survival vest... assuming that if it is not on you it may not exit the aircraft with you.
I have taken survival training through NOLS, ACA and Avalance safety training, and approach the issue as a bivoac situation. I carry the supplies, etc. that would enable me to spend a relatively comfortable night out in the woods or mountains, assuming that my ELT will do it's job. In my training that can be accomplished with the "Ten Essentials for Mountain Safety" and a home-made survival kit that weighs about two pounds. Essentially it contains fire-starting, signaling, first aid, emergency calories and shelter items.
As to the fire-arm, I don't know about aligators, but i have spent a lot of time in grizzly country and have yet to feel the need for a weapon. Pepper spray, on the other hand....????
I am still adapting my thinking from wilderness travel to the airplane environment, but my basic premise is; "If I can spend the night (anywhere) in relative comfort, I will also be safe." I try to plan accordingly.
Jim
 
Hey Mike,

Just getting caught up on your thread.

At a minimum on a cross country, I carry:

1) Lighter
2) Solar blanket
3) Pocket Knife (w/screw driver, etc)
4) SPOT Satellite Messenger
5) A handgun (Concealed Carry License Required). I don't mind paying some rancher a premium price for my steak dinner under the stars. Perhaps I should add salt/pepper to my kit. :D
6) Appropriate clothing for the season.

On a side note, my wife always has water. If she doesn't, I make sure she has plenty. (I don't tell her why)


Phil
 
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I doubt any of us need to carry food for survival...water? yes. Most anyone can go a week or better without food and be fine.

If you really want to carry "survival" food. Take a cup of dry dog food and vacuum pack it for your vest. high calorie snack which you won't eat until you actually need it and will last for a long time. Premium brands like Science Diet have less filler product and more protein.
 
N8RV said:
I guess I have to ask about the legality of carrying a firearm across state borders. My IN CCP is recognized in several other states, but not next door in IL, for example. If I were to go down in a cornfield in the middle of IL (not too worried about fighting 'gators there) on my way to Montana (where I might need protection), the local sheriff might not approve of my 1911 in my flight bag.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

if you have it unloaded and in your luggage, you should be covered under the transportation of firearms act. basically if you are traveling from state a to state b and your gun is legal in state a and state b states, you are legal in all states in between. it is kind of a gray area if you stop overnight in a bad state, so don't be making a big visit on your way there. check the laws for yourself, this is a generalization.


http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=59 look at the second paragraph under "FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS"
 
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hydroguy2 said:
I doubt any of us need to carry food for survival...water? yes. Most anyone can go a week or better without food and be fine.

If you really want to carry "survival" food. Take a cup of dry dog food and vacuum pack it for your vest. high calorie snack which you won't eat until you actually need it and will last for a long time. Premium brands like Science Diet have less filler product and more protein.
Click to expand...

if you are worried about melamine or other tainted food sources in dog food, there is plenty of "coast guard biscuits" and other survival food sources out there. in areas of water a couple packs of freeze dried (my fav is mountain house) are very light and nutritious. they can be reconstituted in the bag, but it is nice to have warm water which usually means a pot. there are some very light pots available and you can put most of your survival kit in one. look at REI or other backpacking stores for lightweight goodies.

for example: http://www.amazon.com/3600-Calorie-ER-Bar-Emergency/dp/B0007VSID8
 
In my distant past I was an extreme outdoor guide. In that role, I learned a few things about survival.

Putting together a good kit is fairly simple. The problem, as has been pointed out is to make sure you have the kit when you exit the plane.

Pack as much as you can in a Nalgene bottle and put a small carabiner on it so you can clip it to your belt quickly, before impact. Be careful with using a vest. You do not want any sharp objects in it that can puncture your skin upon impact. (Do not put any objects in a place that can move under the harness!)

As for what I keep in the plane or on me, here is the list:

Leatherman Squirt P4 knife – Kept in my pocket at all times
Space Blanket
Magneisum Fire Starter
Potable Aqua Iodine Tablets – I would like to carry my SweetWater purification system but it is bulky.
A cheap compass.
A Survival whistle
A small first aid kit – My wife added sutures and a needle. (It is good to be married to a DVM!)
Basic fishing supplies
Utility cord
In my tool bag there is some fine safety wire which can be used as a rabbit snare. (No need for a gun when a rabbit will run into your trap.)
A couple of power bars that I change out every time I get hungry on a long flight.

That is about it.

One other thing that I have in the plane at all times and have instructed my wife to use is the 496. She knows how to remove it from the AirGizmo, install the antenna, switch it to road mode, and how to navigate on the ground with it.

That last point is important. You don’t leave the GPS on all the time or its battery will be used up quickly. What you want to do is locate your position on the chart using the 496 and then turn the thing off. Pick a point in the distance and walk towards it, only turning on the GPS to verify your position. Repeat as needed. If you are conservative, the battery charge should last a week.

As for how far you can walk. There are so many variables. On gentleman said he thought he could make 20 miles a day. He is probably correct, if the ground he is walking on is level (or downhill) and perfectly flat. Add in a lack of trail (bushwhacking), rough terrain, hills, and he could be down to less than six miles. Add to that the shock of your accident and any injuries, time of year (Very hot or very cold and deep snow) and you are down to just a few miles.

Water is the biggest problem. Remember, the best place to store water is in your body. More than a few people have been found dead with water in their canteens/water bottle. Every time you find water, drink your fill, fill the bottle, rest, and reevaluate your predicament. Move on, only if it is wise to do so.

Remember, it might be best to walk at night, if you are in the desert southwest. As mentioned earlier, you might be better off staying with your aircraft. Use the fuel to keep warm and start a Smokey fire.

The final thing on my list is the ELT. You did mount yours where you can get to it without tools didn’t you? You might be hurt, so getting that aft bulkhead off may not be possible. I mounted my ELT under a small door in the baggage compartment floor. The door is held shut with screws that have big knobs on them to so they can be removed by hand. The “walk around antenna” is also conveniently located so it can be quickly removed and used with the ELT.

If you are injured, do not leave the wreckage unless a week has pasted! Heck, don’t leave the wreckage for a week even if you are healthy.

Depending on where we and when we are going, we will supplement that kit as needed.

As for firearms, most law enforcement agents are OK with you transporting weapons. Just be careful when you land. Many FBO’s aren’t so forgiving.

Some years back I had a dream of taking the RV up to Alaska. For that future trip I bought a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 chambered in 9mm. (I already had a Glock 9mm and this carbine uses the same magazines.) It is inexpensive, light, accurate, and goes POW every time I pull the trigger. What more could you want?
(To take down a bear, the .40 version might be better. The good news is the bears I have stumbled across in the mountains all took off at the first smell. Bears have a better nose than eyes.)

Do some research on what foods can be found in the wild. Snake meat is palatable and there is a good chance you will stumble across one.

Other tool that I really like but don’t keep in the plane is a Snow Peak Titanium Trek 700 Mug. It weighs ounces, even with the stainless steel lid. When backpacking this is and the REI Campware Utensil Set are the only cooking supplies I take. Many of the dehydrated food packages are surprisingly good and are loaded with calories. Eating them right out of the bag eliminates the need to bring unnecessary plates.
 
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jlk said:
My first survival item for cross country flight is an IFR flight plan or VFR flight following. No substitute for communication and a radar fix.
Click to expand...

I sometimes do not have flight following services in the mountainous west.

With low cost GPS enabled PLBs, there is no need to crash/land off field and not have SAR on the way.

This may not be the best but here is one option:

http://www.antonline.com/p_2798.4NH-NX_804110.htm
 
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Rivethead said:
When I flew my 152 home from Texas I flew IFR (I followed roads) fairly closely without being obsessed by them but carried a bunch of water with me. When I fly on an airline I wear cotton cloths and shoes that would stay on my feet even if I had to walk in deep mud.
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That is good but one problem with the water, besides the obvious weight of it. The container may split on impact right after becoming a projectile.

A few years back when I looked into the best way to carry water, I never did find a good solution. Probably bringing a bunch of bottles is best. They are pliable and the probability of all of them splitting on impact is slim.
 
I've enjoyed this thread and its different ideas. My kit fits in a medium sized
fanny pack which contains many of the mentioned items (no food though)
and along with the space blankets a couple of folded up large trash bags.
Don't carry a weapon but have a Ruger 10-22 with a folding stock for
that purpose (the KelTec Sub 2000 is nice but not legal here in the peoples
republic of California). But I figure my McMurdo PLB is the most important
item I have. And now that I'm into my wiser years, with all the mountains
to cross here in the west, I tend to cross them very near passes with roads
(same with the deserts).
 
Good info everyone. I knew I could count on the VAF brain.

Looks like I can piece together a survival kit from my first aid kit and camping gear. Great link Ron. I will get the Spot. I will add a rope to my kit based on the Discovery Channel recommendation and reading about some pilots being okay but trapped in the tree tops.

And good advice on not leaving the wreckage.

But I think I will try to be within view of major roads in bad areas. I am just paranoid I guess.:)
 
Speaking from a military standpoint and someone that's been through survival school, and someone whose spent many hours looking down at Afghanistan thinking "it would suck to jump out here" I'll try and provide some opinion/guidance.

1.) Dress to egress. This is probably the number factor. If you're going from Vegas to LA, but need to cross the sierras to get there... cargo shorts and flip flops is not what you want to be sporting. As well in the winter time, think about wearing thermals under your clothes for remote areas and always remember that cotton sucks. Wool/polywool will always keep you warm, even when wet. Sturdy boots/shoes are probably a good idea. Tailor it to common sense for whatever you're flying over.

2.) Survival gear. Granted the gov't supplies me with this stuff, but at a minimum we carry/wear: Life preserver, day/night flare (one end colored smoke, the other burns bright red), pencil flares (like little fireworks), bottle of water, compass, knife, flashlight, signal mirror, survival radio, and in combat a firearm. In the seat kit we have a life raft and some other random goodies. Given weight/size restrictions for your plane, tailor what you need to where you're going. i.e. don't drag a raft and paddle over Arizona. If you wind up in a lake, well you're just having a really bad day.

3.) At a minimum I would personally carry:
- A cell phone (SPOT is ideal and preffered as it's not cell reception contingent)
- Signal Mirror. Learn how to use it, takes 2 minutes and can be seen for over 100 miles on a clear day
- Day night flare. Even at night, the day time smoke portion will bloom on night vision goggles from any CSAR assets.
EDIT: - Red Chem light, maybe a few. They're $2, light, last hours. Good reliable light at night, well seen on NVG's, and if you tie a string to it and swing it over your head, it's visible on NVG's for 10 miles or more (speaking from experience).
- Sturdy survival knife. No cheap piece of Wal Mart garbage. Perferable something with a solid blade, nothing folding. They fall apart.
- Fire starter like a magneseium kit. Be leary of having flammable things in the plane. Lighters break down and leak. Matches, well are just dumb.
- Space blanket. They're big, light make great shelter, high vis, cheap. You can probably carry 4-5 of them for less than a few ounces, and they cost nothing.
- Camping hammock. Again cheap and very light. Rolls up to the size of a tennis ball, great moral booster of you're spending the night. Also useful as a sling for all sorts of things.
- 50' of 550 cord. On it's own it's good up to... 550 #'s! Or you can pull the strands out by pulling the sheath off, takes two seconds. The strands are good for about 25 #'s the sheath for 45 #'s. You now have about 500' of line to build a shelter, or whatever.

All this can be packed up in a little bag for less than 2 lbs. Anything else I carry is going to be location dependant. Food and water is heavy and takes up space, althought for REALLY remote areas maybe not a bad idea. You can mitigate your time on the ground with prior planning.

For overwater I'd make sure that I'm filed, in two way comms with SOMEONE at all times and at a minimum wearing one of the life jackets below. I'd also carry a waterproof marine radio, which you can pick up for 100 bucks. Coast Guard, Navy a/c all have the capability to monitor/talk on Marine channels. As well you can call boats. Sea dye marker is also a huge bonus. It's about the size of a pack of cards and will dye color the water around you for a mile or more a BRIGHT neon green. Day/night flare a must here too.

http://www.safelifejackets.com/product/37.html

Here's what the dye marker looks like. You can see how much faster you'll be seen. You can get em online for $20 and if you're really bored, throw it in your neighbors pool.
2FISH.JPG
 
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Mike D said:
...
But I think I will try to be within view of major roads in bad areas. I am just paranoid I guess.:)
Click to expand...
Mike,

The problem is that you could go down in the trees, fifty feet from a road and after you stop moving/crashing and start walking, you could be so dazed that you walk further into the woods and away from the road.

Stress makes all of us do strange things and crashing into a bunch of rocks and trees is a great way to induce some stress.

If you "know" your position and are going to walk for help, take some time to assess your condition (including fitness prior to the accident), your position, and the condition of any passenger(s) you may have.
 
N941WR said:
Good points Sig.

I left off the mirror on my list.

As for a knife, I have a Glock Survival Knife 81 strapped to my large expidition pack. It is a great knife.
Click to expand...

I prefer something with a flat edge on one side, that way I can beat on it with something to hammer it into wood or whatnot. Sweet blade though.

Added a red chem light to my previous post. Forgot about it.
 
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49clipper

Don,
If you go down in IL., your states concealed carry permit is good here, at least that is what I am told. We have lots of folks here with FL concealed carry permits packing heat.
Jim
 
One comment about eating in survival situation.

If you don't have water or much of it....don't eat, digestion process will dehydrate you.

P.S.
I read some years ago that a company makes a filtered drinking straw, anyone know about these, who makes them, are they still available?


Glenn Wilkinson
 
You could also try one of these filter bottles:
Katadyn MyBottle Microfilter
Aquamira Water Bottle and Filter Kit

Note, I have not used either of these bottles, so I can't attest to how well they work.

My favorite is the Sweetwater Micro-Filtration System. I have used it to filter water from some places that would normally make me think twice but it produced clean, good tasting water.

Keep in mind, these filters will not remove salt or chemical contaminants. However, they do make salt water filters, if you need.
 
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