twvandusen

I'm New Here
Guys,
Pretty much decided to put the Superior XP-360 in my -8 and I was wondering about the various options that are available. Specifically regarding the advantages/disadvantages of the following:
1. Injection vs Carburated
2. Updraft vs Fwd-facing sump
3. Lasar vs Lightspeed vs Slick mags (also Halls vs Crank sensing)
4. 9.0 vs 8.5 compression ratio (I want the option to run MoGas)
5. Roller pushrod vs solid pushrods
My goal is to get the most bang for the buck. Some of these options cost over $2500 or more and though they may be better than their competitors are they that much better. Also, I will be running a constant speed prop and want your thoughts on Hartzell vs others.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Thom
 
Thom,
1. Injection vs Carburated:
Primary advantages of FI over carb are fuel economy of about .5 to 1 gph in cruise due to leaning advantages. Ability for inverted flight. Lack of carb ice concerns.
Primary disadvantages of FI over carbureted are cost and lack of simplicity.

2. Updraft vs Fwd-facing sump:
Here are the differences between the vertical and horizontal engines. The vertically supplied 180HP engines IO or O without the fuel delivery system and fuel pump are exactly the same. The
difference between an 180HP experimental horizontal engine and the vertical engine is just the sump and intake pipes. The two common forward facing
sumps produce more power because they don't heat up the air going
through them, from the hot oil in the sump portion, as the vertical
sumps do. Our tests have shown the horsepower difference to be
approximately 6.5 to 7 HP more with the horizontal forward facing
cold air sump. The Superior horizontal sump is made of a composite
plastic the others are made of aluminum. Our tests were conducted
using the aluminum sump but I can't see why the plastic one would
yield different results. If fuel injecting the vertical sump, you
should be able to use the same cowl setup as the carbureted version
of the engine. The Bendix Fuel injector when mounted is approximately
1 inch shorter than the carbureted version. Installing a spacer
between the bottom of the fuel injector and top of the air box will
make the height difference non-tangible. The only possible problem is
that the mixture control on the fuel injector will need to be
anchored, on the engine end, in a non-standard fashion as the mixture
lever on the fuel injector is in a different place than on the
carburetor. The standard carburetor throttle mount bracing should
work OK as the throttle arm on the Bendix fuel servo is in a very
similar location when compared to the carburetor.

3. Lasar vs Lightspeed vs Slick mags (also Halls vs Crank sensing):
I guess the answer to that is your own personal preference. There are many, many, 360's out there running with just two mags. They work great and are reliable and safe. However, even when you have a good system, others will try to improve it, that's why there are alternative systems available. Do those alternatives make the engine more efficient? Probably. Safer? Maybe,maybe not. More reliable? Not necessarily. More expensive to purchase? Most likely. So when you take all the variables, into consideration, it comes down to whether you want electronic ignition or not, what type of redundancy you want, and what you want to spend for it.
If you want dual electronic ignition, each using the other as the back up you could use two of a system like Lightspeed or some of the others available. If you want 1/2 electronic ignition and 1/2 standard ignition, the only way to do that exactly, is to use a mag on one side and a system like Lightspeed on the other side. If you want to run dual electronic with dual magneto backup, then the LASAR system from Unison is the way to go. All of these systems, standard magneto ignition, full electronic, partial electronic and partial mag, LASAR, in my experience, work well and are reliable. Another possibility is the FADEC system, from Aerosance. This system gives you full double redundant electronic ignition but also gives you electronic fuel injection as well. So with that system besides getting the advantages of the electronic ignition, you also get a very precise fuel metering system that also performs all of the leaning functions on the engine( No more mixture control). The FADEC system adds considerable cost to the engine over standard carburetor equipped with any of the ignition options listed. In most cases about $7500.00 more than a standard O-360. The Lightspeed system adds about $350.00 to $900.00 per side additional, depending on which of their systems you want to use over the standard engine. The LASAR system typically adds about $1800.00 to the engine, over standard ignition. These costs assume that you are getting some sort of credit for not using the standard ignition system. If you weren't getting a credit you would add about 600.00 for each mag and harness, you weren't using to the costs and of course you would have those components as not installed spare parts.
There are also some new players on the block that offer an emag and also a P mag. New techonolgy and very hard to get yor hands on any, but maybe worth a look.

4. 9.0 vs 8.5 compression ratio (I want the option to run MoGas): No mogas with 9:1 as far as I know. Same with any electronic ignition systems mentioned.

5. Roller pushrod vs solid pushrods: Only benefit I know of is the change in wear characteristics that COULD be possible with the roller tappets vs. normal tappets. Camshaft wear is an issue on Lycoming style engines especially if inactivity is present. The roller cam set up should help with this. The only disadvantages that I see is the newness and untested situation you get into when anything new comes to market.

WE would love to build your XP for you..give me a call if you are interested in us assembling it for you. 1-800-624-668 ext.305.

Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."
 
You might also think about "flow matching" if you go with FI. It doesn't add any horsepower, but is supposed to allow noticeably smoother operation, and because of the matched nozzles allowing more equal fuel flow among the nozzles to each other, it allows you to lean for better economy since all four cylinders will run closer to each other in temps.

It's a $1000 option that I have personally decided is worth it.
 
I read somewhere that with the roller tappets, Superior was able to optimize the profile of the lobes on the camshaft. I guess that would provide a little better performance?

Mahlon, you mentioned that the Bendix fuel injector is slightly different than a standard cab setup. How does the Aerosance FADEC system affect the air box path?

Dave
 
Dave,
The FADEC air controller is the same length or height as a carb. So in your particular case the air box flange on the FADEC will be approximately one inch further forward than it would be with fuel injection. From what I have been told by others that have gone before you, is this is easily contended with, with the stock parts that Vans sells for the forward facing sump engines.
I don't believe the Superior is touting any performance increase from the roller cam. At least they weren't when I talked with them about it and I haven't promised any performance increase to any of out perspective XP customers.
I have never built an XP-360 plus engine so I can't relay any test cell specific data.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."
 
Mahlon,
Thanks for all the info, the fog is beginning to clear. Any thoughts on the following:
1. Bendix FI vs Percision Silver Hawk FI vs Airflow performance FI vs Ellison FI?
2. Ryton sump?
3. Dynafocal #1 vs #2?
4. Superior's Standard cast cylinder vs Inverstment cast?
Again, I appreciate your detailed posting. BTW, I went to the E-Mag/P-Mag website. Very interesting. Why do you say that is not available?
Thom
 
Thom,
Emag and P mag have had a very successful launch and unfortunately their production capabilities are way behind their orders. Very, very long lead times. They are working on the problem.
Dynafocal one is the only way to go.
Bendix FI and SilverHawk FI are the same thing except for price and the SilverHawk system has for experimental use stamped on it. Other then that stamping, no difference.
I think the SilverHawk system installs easier then the Airflow system in a Van's aircraft, as they were designed with that system in mind. The airflow system works basically just like the SilverHawk. Six of one half a dozen of another type situation. Price is about the same from most vendors.
Ryton sump needs special exhaust in a Van's aircraft if you are getting it from Vetterman. Other then that, it looks different then the one Lycoming uses. Should function the same and saves about 2.5 lbs over the Lycoming one.
I would stay with the standard cast cylinders?.cheaper and the payoff on the investment cast heads is really in the second run of the engine. If you are thinking that far ahead then investment cast might be of benefit.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."