T

tx_jayhawk

Well Known Member
I wanted to start a thread for us underpriviledged folk who won't make it to SNF this year.

For those that are there, can you tell us what great specials and/or new announcements exist? Any noteworthy product discounts?

Thanks
Scott
7A Fuse or Finish...not sure which
 
Advanced Flight EFIS

af3500eedgweb5sg.jpg




Package Pricing Sun-n-Fun
4 Cylinder Show Special
Item Description List Price Package Price

1 AF-3400 + AF-3400 Dual Screen $7,300 $6,999

2 AF-3500 + AF-3400 Dual Screen $7,700 $7,399

3 AF-3500 + AF-3500 Dual Screen $8,100 $7,799


www.advanced-flight-systems.com
 
Ok, their site is back up, but lacking in details. On the EFIS description, they say:
- GPS Interface
- Nav Radio Interface

Does that mean it can replace a CDI? I can't see how else they can justify a price over 50% higher than the Dynon big screen.
 
Acs Efis

The AHRS unit they are using is much better than the Dynon & the screen is fabulous, I saw it at the factory last week & it really is the business, even in direct sunlight it's as bright as a pin.

Stephen
N570Z Fuse
RV7
 
Their website now appears to have lots of extra info on the new EFIS. I would try again. Look here, then choose the unit you wish to look at on the left hand-side. Also at the bottom there is a link to an image with relative screen sizes.

This thing is a little pricey, but AFS's stuff seems to be high quality. The screen resolution on that thing is awesome.
 
N57 OZ said:
The AHRS unit they are using is much better than the Dynon & the screen is fabulous, I saw it at the factory last week & it really is the business, even in direct sunlight it's as bright as a pin.

Stephen
N570Z Fuse
RV7
Click to expand...

What is the basis for this claim? Every AHRS vendor I have *ever* spoken with has a laundry list of reasons why "his" unit is better than the other brands...
 
"Patented aerospace grade AHRS." That could be used to describe the Crossbow, and we know how that turned out. :rolleyes:

I can't find any decent dimensions on the thing. The brochure says the AF-3500 is 7.5" x 6.63", but I'm not sure if that's the screen size or the size of the bevel. The AF-3400 is shown "actual size" which is not very helpful in a PDF.

I haven't found a complete list of features anywhere. There's mention of an "EFIS DG", but no explanation. It appears that you can use the cheaper $400 "AOA kit" and use the EFIS for display. Does that have all the features of the AOA Pro or AOA Sport?

I'm sure more info will be available eventually, but if anybody at the show can fill us in, please do. I'm very close to making a final decision on my EFIS.
 
Davepar said:
Ok, their site is back up, but lacking in details. On the EFIS description, they say:
- GPS Interface
- Nav Radio Interface

Does that mean it can replace a CDI? I can't see how else they can justify a price over 50% higher than the Dynon big screen.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it supports "highway in the sky" type CDI indications. Initially the SL30 serial format is supported and other interfaces will be made available by software upgrade shortly.
 
osxuser said:
Still appears to be lack a moving map... one of the reasons l like the BMA stuff.
Click to expand...

Yes, but many of us already have this in the form of a GPS unit, be it Garmin 295/395 or certified GPS. To me it does not make sense to pay for updates on more than one instrument. It is also a serious detraction if you do not live in the US as the maps are often not of particularly high quality.

These units are not in the league of Chelton, BMA EFIS one and GRT top of the line systems but the thing I like about this unit is that the vendor has spent all of their time creating the interface rather than coding AHARS solutions. I have used most of the other solutions and user interface is often less than desirable.

The AF-2500 EMS solution is already arguably one of the best units, or the best in terms of user interface. Based on that alone this new unit should be outstanding. Added to that they have achieved on virtually every promised feature that Dynon has come up with (and executed it) along with delivering on quite a few added features. I for one am impressed.

If they can keep their delivery date, they will have achieved a great deal and set themselves apart as a true player in the marketplace. (BTW where is the promised GRT Lite unit?).

For the record I am not bagging any one vendor, but I think it is true to say that the EFIS marketplace is maturing and this is a good thing for anyone that wants to build an airplane with a glass cockpit!

Richard
 
Richard, I'm curious -- can you get into more details about these UI improvements.. and also if you can mention what's wrong wtih other units, so we better understand what exactly is being referred to in your previous post.


PS.. As for my own comment.. I keep seeing same thing over and over again.. EFIS and engine monitor.. be honest, I'd prefer they bring something new to the market.. a competition to GRT's Lite offering with their Sport + moving map + engine monitor. They need some competition there (at relatively similar prices).
 
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On the user interface: The Advanced Flight Systems engine monitor has HP/% engine power. For some reason Dynon can't figure out how to display that. Not sure if GRT does. The knob on the AFS and GRT makes it much easier to set values like altimeter setting than the up/down button on the Dynon. From what I've read, the AFS EMS will notice if you fill up the tanks without resetting the fuel quantity. Not sure if the Dynon or GRT does that.

I've been leaning toward the Dynon EFIS/EMS for quite some time, only because of the nice integration between the units. I've always thought the AFS engine monitor is the nicest.
 
moving map

Are they talking about putting a map in the device at some point?

Does it have a heading bug connectivity feature to link to ap?

CAW
 
I was just looking at the GRT web site. I don't mean to slam the happy GRT users out there, but this screen looks like something from an Atari video game circa 1982:

Split_PFD_MAP.jpg


Lines are jagged, text is obscured, the display is way too cluttered, and the colors are either neon or split pea soup. I've gotta believe it looks better in person.

I agree with Richard on the moving map. I'd rather use a 396. None of the small companies will be able to keep up with Garmin's (relative) mass market portable GPS products in terms of features and functionality.
 
grt

Dave,

In answer to your quesiton on %HP - Yes, the GRT displays it, and I am 100% hooked. People ask me "What MAP are you pulling?" for such-and-such, and I have no idea - I never look, because I set RPM and then do everything with % Power - really useful, no matter who's system displays it.

To be fair to GRT you probably shouldn't have posted the one display that I doubt many people use - at least in my opinion, the screens on all of those sized display units is too small for split screen. That's one of the reasons I have two display units.

My advice for folks that are shopping is to look at as many brands as you can in flight, and don't depend on other people's opinions (including mine). There is a big differnce between window-shoppers and in-flight users. The other piece of advice is to pick what you like, based on your requirments, and then stop looking at ads and web sites once you've written the check - like all electronics, something that appears to be better will come along before you take delivery, and you'll just get depressed! :p

I can tell you that in 135 hours now, I have yet to have an inflight lock-up or glitch of any type in the GRT EFIS - that's pretty good for any software system with less than several million copies/users in the field... :cool:

Paul
 
Davepar said:
I've been leaning toward the Dynon EFIS/EMS for quite some time, only because of the nice integration between the units. I've always thought the AFS engine monitor is the nicest.
Click to expand...

The integration between these two units is better than Dynon, and as you can see from the sample pics the display is a whole lot better designed. Like you I was keen on Dynon, but one of the things that really held me back was the number of features designed vs deployed and a lack of roadmap for delivery.

I have spent a fair amount of time talking with Rob about his design and how the prototyping was done. One of the questions that I asked was how long he had been working on it and how the testing was done if the AHARS was not ready. I never really did get a direct answer to this question but suffice it to say he has been working on the prototype for around 18 months. Indeed somone observed recently that they saw it around 12 months ago at an airshow.

My own private theory is that there are a couple of vendors out there that support sending of AHARS information to the serial port already... These devices would make ideal test platforms for this sort of thing. If I was going to build one of these devices that is exactly what I would do.
 
Now that we hijacked the thread, I guess we can continue?

Anyways, a few points

-- esthetics: Dynon EMS and AFS.. about the same.. not big preference on either side.

-- is %HP indication worth extra $1000? I personally don't think so. Though, I'm surprised Dynon can't get this right. I didn't see any compelling features on AFS that would really make a $1000 difference. IMHO, Dynon got this right.. at just the right price (PS. Spruce has a nice discount on EMS120).

-- GRT has lowest resolution of 'em all. It *is* quite sufficient on the PFD. Moving map would suffer if you start adding rivers and roads etc. Engine monitor is fine, though esthetically is ugliest of the three, IMHO. (remember, we're talking esthetics here, not functionality). Though, GRT's map has one REALLY cool feature that enables you to select airports shown on the screen by using the knob alone, and then get info on 'em and even tune radios.. REALLY nice! Beats pressing buttons on a handheld :)

-- split screens on these relatively small screens are nothing but sales gimmicks. They're next to useless is real world (seen GRT first hand and I'd never use it in real world). The pic Dave posted illustrates that quite well.. and not just because of screen resolution. Dynon wtih 2/3-1/3 split may be a bit better. But I'd just prefer 2 screens instead of splitting one :)

-- Again personal preference -- any one of these screens "built in" into the panel look better than AirGizmo with handheld Garmin. I'd be willing to give up all these Garmin features I never use for a basic moving map built into the big screen. All it needs is Direct to, Nearest, and most basic flight plan with say 10 waypoints (if it has more, even better). What other features on the Garmin folks use, that are actually considered useful? (not counting weather)


-- One "big" thing -- releasing units like this new AFS thing is somewhat pointless IMHO.. An IFR unit standalone is useless, as folks will then look into "integration" by using multiple screens (eg dual GRT screens for PFD and HSI.. or BMA's Lite plus). Cramming everything into one screen is completely useless.

Anyways, I see a good market for VFR folks that want glass panel that doesn't look like a "homebuilt" :) Now we just have to wait for these guys to start competing...

OK.. I'm about to run longer than George.. so I'll quit now :)
 
Radomir said:
Richard, I'm curious -- can you get into more details about these UI improvements.. and also if you can mention what's wrong wtih other units, so we better understand what exactly is being referred to in your previous post.


PS.. As for my own comment.. I keep seeing same thing over and over again.. EFIS and engine monitor.. be honest, I'd prefer they bring something new to the market.. a competition to GRT's Lite offering with their Sport + moving map + engine monitor. They need some competition there (at relatively similar prices).
Click to expand...

I think the other posters have summed it up pretty well. It is quite a personal thing but I think you have to work out what it is that you want. For me my priorities are:

* Stable AH without gyros and at a comparable cost
* Replace as many flight instruments as possible i.e G meter, clock etc
* Enough screen space to display everything I need or share with my co-pilot if the workload is low
* Integrated EMS with voice prompting so I keep my eyes outside
* Not having to flip screens away from my AH under NVFR or IFR
* Simple to operate while still keeping eyes outside
* Believe it or not, I also want a real DG/HSI - tapes are nice, full DG cuts down a lot on mental work IFR and aids my situational awarenes.
* Autopilot separate from the EFIS for redundancy. I see people installing two units and an AP
* Minimum ongoing cost

I think it is fair to say that many of the expensive EFIS systems are going into VFR aircraft and are almost being used as toys. Sure they are good and offer some nice features. But can the owner every really get the value out of them and would he/she be better getting IFR instrumentation for the same price? That is a very personal thing.

You notice there is no moving map in the list above. For a VFR aircraft without a GPS or other instrumentation I think an integral map would be nice and I understand the reasoning behind wanting one. However the quality of all of them is nowhere near what can be achieved elsewhere for less.

Take this piece of software -> http://www.oziexplorer.com/ . For virtually nothing I can use the CE version to display real aviation charts on my IPAQ or tablet PC. These are available in Australia as a digital file precalibrated to be used in this sort of tool. Nothing (perhaps with the exception of a Garmin MX20) can compete with that. I can swap between charts, zoom in and out all with a simple touch screen.

In Australia satellite based radar is not available, otherwise I would be seriously looking at the Garmin 395.

Both of these options make a certified GNS480 look reasonably primitive although to be fair it was not designed as a moving map display.
 
Radomir said:
-- is %HP indication worth extra $1000?
Click to expand...

Nope, but by the time you add a better display, operation under a wider temperature range, trim and flap position display, better fuel tank display (tail up and down) and a whole host of other features it looks a lot better.


Radomir said:
-- One "big" thing -- releasing units like this new AFS thing is somewhat pointless An IFR unit standalone is useless, as folks will then look into "integration" by using multiple screens (eg dual GRT screens for PFD and HSI.. or BMA's Lite plus). Cramming everything into one screen is completely useless.
Click to expand...

It is a dual screen display as far as I understand. You get to choose a single display with everything if that is what you want. Otherwise you can swap components of the display backwards and forwards as you prefer. I don't see how that varies from the competition...

It seems to me that the bar is getting continuously raised by people who believe a great deal of information is "required" for IFR flight. That is OK, but there are plenty of pilots out there using the standard six pack of instruments + nav instruments to get the job done.

Richard
 
3400 doesn't include the $1,100 "sensor pack?" Just guessing.. otherwise... it'd be a steal!!
 
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AFS Answers

I am at Sun-n-Fun, we will have more answers next week when we have the time.

1. Our 2 Screen AF-3400 System with ALL the sensors for a 4 Cylinder Engine is $6,999.

2. The Dual Screen Dynon with all the sensors, fuel and OAT is $5,265.

3. The Dynon D-100 screen is 400 nits, ours AF-3400 is 600 nits + transflective.

4. Our system has a SD Card for data transfer and software updates. Dynon gives you a USB to Serial adaptor and calls it USB. Try transferring or updating any amount of data with a USB to Serial port and you will discover why we added the SD Card.

5. We purchase sensors and boards from Crossbow and integrate them into our system. Our AHRS is based on certified software and boards that have been proven in real IFR conditions in fully certified systems. We tested less expensive gyros and we just did not feel comfortable using them. It just does not make sense to sell an EFIS and then tell people that it can?t be used for IFR flight. My kids will be using our RV-10 to get their pilots licenses and IFR ratings. There is no way that I could sell a system knowing that it is going to be used for IFR flight that I would not let my kids fly.

6. We have voice alerts, lose the oil pressure and you will hear ?Check Oil Pressure? . Other systems just give a beep and expect you to figure it out.

7. The system will display CDI and Glide Slope from a Garmin SL-30. We are working on a ARINK-429 link for the other NAV Radios.

8. We have data logging? now, not a promise to do it in the future.

9. Maps?.. I currently have a Garmin 396 in my RV-4 and it is one of the nicest and best designed pieces of equipment that I have ever purchased. The weather, terrain, maps, music, and news is awesome. One of my neighbors fly?s Corporate Jets and he uses a 396 in them all the time. I just hate the idea of doing a map that is not near as good as what I am used to? We have been approached from 2 different companies that currently do maps that would like to work with us on it.

10. Autopilot? We have already been able to run the TruTrak servos with the system and we are seriously thinking about adding a 2 axis autopilot to the system. I currently have a Digiflight II VS in my RV-4 and I really like it. BUT, I want to be able to tell the system to climb or descend to an altitude and level off. I also want the system to hold the set altitude when the Barometric pressure changes.

11. We have a very fast processor, quality hardware, and are working on improvements.


The cheapest price is not always the best value??

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
1. Our 2 Screen AF-3400 System with ALL the sensors for a 4 Cylinder Engine is $6,999.

2. The Dual Screen Dynon with all the sensors, fuel and OAT is $5,265.

3. The Dynon D-100 screen is 400 nits, ours AF-3400 is 600 nits + transflective.


Just curious.............are the screen sizes the same on the Af-3400 as the Dynon? I thought the AF-3500 compares to the Dynon in size.

Dean
40449
 
AFS trutrak

Rob,

I'll bite. The trutrak servo support would make this very attractive. Since that sounds like mostly a software thing, give us a ball park what that would cost. For <$4K we get the trutrak servos with the spiffy ADI.

Dynon 180 + probes + trutrak ADI = ~$5.2K or so
single AF-3500 + probes = ~6K
 
Everyone Chill!!!!

Come on guys. This thing was unveiled TODAY. He isn't going to have everything on the site before he shows it at the convention. Kind of the difference between opening the presents on Christmas eve vs. Christmas morning. Cut him some slack. Rob is great guy with great customer support and a product that works as advertised.

I have the AF2500 and think it is the best system out there. I've flown behind many of the others and there is little comparison in my opinion, especially when you compare features.

I have the Dynon 10A. I like it. I'm confident the new Dynon stuff is great too. If I was building now I would jump all over Rob's stuff. His customer support is fantastic. Rob is an RV guy and I'm confident this system will work as advertised.

Unless you can compare exactly the same features arguing price is not productive to the discussion. Everyone has to pick their poison when it comes to avionics. With the rapid changes I'd hate to be making those decisions now!!
 
Anything else?

Hi ya'll,

Any other updates from other vendors (garmin, dynon, other gps folks, xm weather)?

Kevin
 
RV7Guy said:
Come on guys. This thing was unveiled TODAY. He isn't going to have everything on the site before he shows it at the convention. Kind of the difference between opening the presents on Christmas eve vs. Christmas morning. Cut him some slack. Rob is great guy with great customer support and a product that works as advertised.

I have the AF2500 and think it is the best system out there. I've flown behind many of the others and there is little comparison in my opinion, especially when you compare features.

I have the Dynon 10A. I like it. I'm confident the new Dynon stuff is great too. If I was building now I would jump all over Rob's stuff. His customer support is fantastic. Rob is an RV guy and I'm confident this system will work as advertised.

Unless you can compare exactly the same features arguing price is not productive to the discussion. Everyone has to pick their poison when it comes to avionics. With the rapid changes I'd hate to be making those decisions now!!
Click to expand...
I wasn't picking on him, or commenting price. I just mentioned that I like the moving map feature on the BMA units (all of them, not just the efis1). I have NEVER used an efis system before, but i'll be in the market for a complete setup in a couple years so I'm keeping track.
 
In General

osxuser said:
I wasn't picking on him, or commenting price. I just mentioned that I like the moving map feature on the BMA units (all of them, not just the efis1). I have NEVER used an efis system before, but i'll be in the market for a complete setup in a couple years so I'm keeping track.
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,

I wasn't singling you out, just a general comment. I certainly wouldn't even try to compare the BMA with this. The BMA is now over $20K with the accessories.

I'm confident the Advanced will be easy to install and work. As we have read hear many times, the BMA has lots to be desired.
 
Guilty. I want the latest and greatest in my plane. Realistically, all of the major EFIS systems out there are great. I'm sure I'd be happy with any of them. At some point I'll just make the decision and move forward, and hopefully won't look back. The point of the plane is to have fun and fly to cool places, not to worry about the latest and greatest EFIS feature.

I met Rob at the RV Home Wing Fly-in last summer at Scappoose. Seemed like a good guy. I'm lucky to have two great vendors so close by (Dynon and AFS).

There must be some other news out of Sun n Fun that we can discuss as well.

Dave
 
N401RH said:
...The system will display CDI and Glide Slope from a Garmin SL-30. We are working on a ARINK-429 link for the other NAV Radios...
Click to expand...

I think the GNS430 GPS/Nav/Com (maybe the 480 as well?) has the same CDI output as the SL-30.

My current plan is D100+D120+AOA sport+CDI = $7450. Sounds like I could get the same functionality with a dual AF-3400 with AOA option for $7600 with the Sun n Fun special. Not bad. :cool:
 
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I think...

Davepar said:
I think the GNS430 GPS/Nav/Com (maybe the 480 as well?) has the same CDI output as the SL-30.

My current plan is D100+D120+AOA sport+CDI = $7450. Sounds like I could get the same functionality with a dual AF-3400 with AOA option for $7600 with the Sun n Fun special. Not bad. :cool:
Click to expand...

Seems to me, there are 2 ways to drive a CDI. In analog mode with the low voltage outputs for up/down/left/right. In this config. all the radios can drive one. (SL-30, 430, and 480). The other config and the more preferred one is via a "serial" stream. I believe that the SL30 and the 430 and provide that, but something in the back of my brain make me think that the 480 can not.... This might be an RS-232 vs. ARINC 429 thing. I can't remember, but the 480 doesn't have enough RS-232 outputs and that's what most of the EFIS systems use to "communicate" to the SL-30.

I'll have to go dig up my notes...
 
SnF specials

I did note that Blue Mountain has show specials.
I looked for their new sport but didn't see it displayed.
I think the discount was about $500
Harold,
RV9A Rotary
 
aadamson said:
Seems to me, there are 2 ways to drive a CDI. In analog mode with the low voltage outputs for up/down/left/right. In this config. all the radios can drive one. (SL-30, 430, and 480). The other config and the more preferred one is via a "serial" stream. I believe that the SL30 and the 430 and provide that, but something in the back of my brain make me think that the 480 can not.... This might be an RS-232 vs. ARINC 429 thing. I can't remember, but the 480 doesn't have enough RS-232 outputs and that's what most of the EFIS systems use to "communicate" to the SL-30.

I'll have to go dig up my notes...
Click to expand...
Hmm, I think it's the opposite, the 480 can and the 430 can't. I know that the 430 CAN'T drive the CDI on the BMA Efis/Sport 3G because it is only serial, and the SL30 CAN.
 
"Secret News" from TruTrak

TruTrak had an anouncement sheet at SnF announcing their future release of THEIR new EFIS. More details to come. This could be interesting with another competitor entering the market...More options, more choices, lower prices...Boy, isn't it great to be an "experimental" builder?
 
smithhb said:
TruTrak had an anouncement sheet at SnF announcing their future release of THEIR new EFIS. More details to come. This could be interesting with another competitor entering the market...More options, more choices, lower prices...Boy, isn't it great to be an "experimental" builder?
Click to expand...

Any details on the sheet you can share?
 
Unveiled at Oshkosh

Any details on the sheet you can share?
Click to expand...
About the only other info on the sheet was that it is to be unveiled at Oshkosh this year. Other than that it was pretty sparse... just something to throw out there to raise interest.

On another note... Dynon was showing their D-100 with some sort of a GPS interface... sorry, I was an idiot for not asking more questions on this (I got starry-eyed over the fact that I could get a dual-redundant EFIS system -- D-100 & D-180, each with their own AHRS internal -- for about $6,000). I do remember the rep specifically saying it required an external GPS input though.
 
Radomir said:
The new Dynon feature looked like this:


I'll post other SnF pics in a little bit
Click to expand...

Yay! I'm in love, that was the one feature that was missing from the D180 that kept it off the list for my next RV.
 
BMA SnF Discounts

Here are the BMA discounts from Sun-n-Fun...

EFIS/One Gen4 $1510 (Show Price $13465)
EFIS/Sport Gen4 $495 (Show Price $6500)
EFIS/Lite Plus Gen4 $400 (Show Price $3595)
EFIS/Lite Gen4 None (Show Price $2795)
Autopilot Subsystem $400 (Show Price $3100)
Engine Monitoring Pod $100 (Show Price $(895)
Customized Cable Set $100 (Show Price $895)
Powerboard Wiring Accessory $70 (Show Price $725)

Prices do not include annual support and shipping.

--
Michael
 
This EFIS is a DYNON on steriods that is the easiest way to explain it. I saw it and if you are looking for a Dynon like, then this is it they do the same thing.


MichRV10
 
MichRV10 said:
This EFIS is a DYNON on steriods that is the easiest way to explain it. I saw it and if you are looking for a Dynon like, then this is it they do the same thing.


MichRV10
Click to expand...

Which EFIS are you talking about?
 
The advanced 3500 EFIS, nice clear screen alot of info on screen.
If the incorporated a moving map to navigate by this would be top of the line just under a Chelton.
 
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