Skyhi

Member
After a less than satisfying 8 experience I am building an RV4 for a lighter more responsive aircraft.

Second time around I would like to create the perfect RV-4 for grass strip flying, a balance of great handling and performance.

My current thoughts are for the lightest possible build and an IO-320 with Catto three blade Fixed pitch prop.

Suggestions please especially on the prop and engine combination including CofG tips to create the best handling.

Thanks, Nic
 
After a less than satisfying 8 experience I am building an RV4 for a lighter more responsive aircraft.

Second time around I would like to create the perfect RV-4 for grass strip flying, a balance of great handling and performance.

My current thoughts are for the lightest possible build and an IO-320 with Catto three blade Fixed pitch prop.

Suggestions please especially on the prop and engine combination including CofG tips to create the best handling.

Thanks, Nic

Out of interest - what didn't you like about the 8?
 
Like this

Hi Nic,
My buddy just finished his -4. He has a D 180 and a backup airspeed which I don't think you even need since an experienced pilot should be able to use the GPS for speed or use the correct nose/horizon angle. One instrument. Go for 160 HP. If you want good acro, go with a compromise prop pitch. He went for max speed pitch and it still jumps off the ground at 985#. One comm and xpdr. No paint and raise the wheelpants 1/2" more if you do a lot of grass runways. Absolutely don't shorten the stick length since Van has it just right....otherwise you'll really change the feel of the -4.

Depending on your operations whether day/night, no lights but a single strobe.

YMMV.......BTW Sharkey, the -8's don't have that light, nimble feel like the -6's or -7's for some reason, certainly not like the -4's. For the bigger guys, 6'4"/240# or more, the -8 is the way to go.

Regards,
 
Absolutely. O-320 (160 HP carb), Catto 3-blade (climb prop for acro). The Catto climb prop will still cruise great. It just takes a little more RPM. Minimal instruments. Strobes for visibility. A light -4 is one of the best flying RVs around and 160 hp is plenty.
$.02 please.
 
I'm going with a carbed 360 for several reasons that seemed clear back when I chose it. If I were to go again, I'd go 320 just for the extra cowl clearance alone.
 
I have a Art Chard built -4.

Just a couple of the things he did:

In addition to the thicker fuse weldments that go opposite the engine mount he added big triangular pieces to beef up the firewall build area. Significantly overbuilt from the early -4's. The new kits come with the thicker weldments but I don't think the other pieces are on the plans. Perhaps not needed I don't know.

.020 rudder and elevator skins. No cracking. 1,000 hrs on the airframe.

One piece .032 top wing skins. C/S very smooth finish. No oil canning in flight.

All of this adds weight of course so if you are going for record light you might not want any of it.

Most decisions are trade offs not right/wrong good/bad. The plane has a 180hp c/s prop. For me this is best because I want to give rides and not worry too much about how much the person weighs. If they fit back there it's probably ok. Not the case with a light O-320 and light prop.

If I was building right now I might be tempted to get an O-360 with 7:1 pistons.......
 
Just my opinion

My current thoughts are for the lightest possible build and an IO-320 with Catto three blade Fixed pitch prop. Thanks, Nic
Keep it OH so light. 320= good, Fixed wood prop=good. Keep the paint, interior and panel light but functional. For speed you might pick up a few MPH from a fast back deck. I like the bubble canopy look better but fast back is a little faster and should not add much weight.

The MOD that would be on my must list is a Sam James cowl or style (you could make your own if adventurous). If going fixed prop by all means get a long cowl and use a longer extension cowl.

Personally I'm a Sensenich metal prop fan. It out performs all fixed props in my opinion, and you have the option to re-pitch a metal prop. I say the Sensenich outperforms all others in my opinion. There's not much data or recent side-by-side comparisons of fixed props. I base my opinion on the fact metal props tend to out perform wood props in top speed (due to wood blades being thicker), and two blades tend to outperform three blades, especially for low HP engines. Low HP meaning less than 300-350 HP). Three blades have advantages, but top speed on lower HP engines is not one of those advantages. Van did a fixed prop fly-off/side-by comparison test a long time ago. The last prop fly-off Van did was for constant speed props but included one fixed Sensenich. The fixed Sensenich out performed several C/S props at 8,000ft @ 2,500 rpm.

In my opinion, between the Sensenich and Catto, the Sensenich is faster. However the Catto is lighter and likely smoother.

Be careful making your RV-4 too light on the nose, it will severely limit passenger and bags. Solo it's a dream to fly like this, with a light engine/prop set-up, but dual acro might be impossible except with all but the lightest passenger. Heavy paint (and primer) tends to move CG aft. On the other hand, if you have good basic forward CG (at empty weight) for dual ops, it tends to be a little nose heavy for solo ops. When I say nose heavy, I mean still within limits. You really only notice fwd CG when flying solo on approach. Also you have the option of putting a little ballast in the baggage for solo ops. Of course fwd CG is safer than too far aft CG out of limit, which is a no-go. Fwd Basic empty CG gives you more loading flexibly than aft. When trying to fly with passenger and bags you need nose weight. Everything you put in the plane +pilot, goes aft CG. If you end up nose light, with a tail heavy basic empty CG, you may NOT be able to do dual acro and passenger & bags will be limited for non-acro flying. Just keep this in mind. There are ways to play with CG, but choosing a super light or super heavy engine/prop combo makes your options limited. There are lots of 320/wood and 360-180HP (even 200HP)/constant speed prop combos in RV-4's. It's all about trade-offs. If you go with a light engine/prop and need more nose weight, you can always retain the heavy starter and alternator. Some use a harmonic weighted balancer on the hub between the engine and prop. This damper adds weight on the nose and claims to help increase the rotational inertia of light props for better engine idle.

If you don't go with a Sensenich, consider other brands of fixed wood two blade props, with out the fiberglass wrap. They are lighter and cheaper than Catto, with similar performance. The glass cover over wood is not impervious to rain or rock erosion. Catto makes good stuff, no doubt. I'm not saying Catto is bad, just look at all brands of props before you buy. I do like the composite wrap and integral crush plates of the Catto. However repair on a prop like that is a big question mark. The trick is don't damage it.

Wood props require you RE-torque prop bolts periodically because wood swells and shrinks with humidity. This is another advantage of a metal Sensenich, no need to re-torque and better rain erosion resistance. Really take a look at the Sensenich. You can always have a prop shop (or you) paint it some fancy color other than gray if you want style.

What was the deal with the RV-8?

You will love the RV-4, one of Van's best. Less room than a RV-8 yes but if you are not a high on the "Bubba scale" it fits fine. KEEP IT LIGHT! :D



PS: a lot of folks like the Carb I see above. I'm in the same Carb fan camp, for light and simple, but frankly buying a new engine today you have the choice between Carb and FI at the same base price. The FI installation is about a $700 more (high pressure boost pump), but FI is technically better once set up. FI fuel savings or potential savings, even if only 1% or 2% in cruise, means more now that gas is $4.50/gal. In the day most RV builders bought used engines and got what you could get, mostly carbs. FI is how I'd go today if buying a new engine, even if it cost a little more to buy and install.

360/180HP is pretty good trade off weight to HP. Cost diff is small between 320/360 if buying new. I would not go low compression 360, but it would be better for autogas. I'm not autogas fan. A 320/160HP have the same compression as a 360/180HP (8.5:1). 8:5:1 can get away with premium autogas I understand, but pretty soon all autogas will be ethanol infected. Yea I know ethanol is great?

Ethanol Rant: It takes almost more units of energy to make ethanol from corn than units of ethanol energy you get out. Ethanol has been over hyped by the Farm lobby. DID YOU KNOW, price of BEER is going up!?! Why because Farmers are growing less lovely barley to grow more corn for ethanol. If that is not enough to hate ethanol, I don't know what is. :D The reason ethanol works in Brazil is because they use sugar to make ethanol, which has a much more favorable energy in/out ratio than corn. Also I recall sugar uses less land than corn, per unit of energy. Corn is not a desirable crop to make ethanol and drives food cost up. We only use it in the USA because we grow lots of corn, and the Farmers in Iowa have a good political lobby.
 
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"Ultimate" RV-4 Advice

Skyhi-

The whole key to creating the 'ultimate' -4 is about keeping the total weight as low as possible. The lighter the plane, the better the performance and 'feel' on the controls. As mentioned here by others, the main issue with the -4 is related to the CG in terms of backseat/baggage area. No matter what engine/prop/paint/interior you install you will be fine CG and weight wise when you fly solo. The whole issue relates to where all of these items lands your CG envelope.

I have read and heard many things about this issue/debate over the years, but I think the best combination for the 'ultimate' -4 is to use a 320 that is either 160 HP or 'tweaked' to make about 170 horses and use a fixed pitch prop (preferably composite or wood, not metal). This is the lightest engine/prop combo (again, saving in overall weight). The whole key to this installation is to use an Odyssey or similar battery and mount it on the firewall- this brings some weight out towards the nose and will markedly increase the amount of weight you can carry in the backseat/baggage area but still keeps the overall weight down. Remember- you have to carry a battery anyway, so you aren't adding anything that doesn't need to be there. Metal props hold up much better, but are much heavier. A metal prop may be more appropriate for you, though, if you will be flying mostly off grass strips (as said above, wood or glass props dont do well with rain/rocks/debris strikes).

In the other extreme, a 360 with a metal constant speed prop will get you off the ground sooner, but you can forget about doing acro with a passenger (unless they are a very petite woman or child) and you can easily exceed overall gross weight with a larger passenger and full fuel. Also, the plane will not 'feel' the same at all. The cruise speed will not be much higher than a 320 with 160 or 170 HP, but you will be carrying that extra weight around with you all the time just for the extra kick in the pants at takeoff. A 170HP 320 with a FP climb prop is no slouch, either.

I have a 320 150HP with a Catto prop and an Oddysey battery on the firewall- works well. Once the engine needs an overhaul, I'm planning to 'tweak' it to get about 170 HP....

Just my $0.02
 
How about smaller engines?

I sold my 6 last summer because of the cost of flying it with fuel approaching $5/gal. Now I'm wondering if a minimal 4 would be the answer. In the early days, weren't there some 4's built with O-235's and O-290's? Anybody know what the performance figures were? I don't care much about cruise speed but if I could get a 1200fpm climb dual and still get a usable cruise speed at 5gph, I'd be building again.
 
My plan is not to build the ultimate -4, just a simple -4 that flyes :) But, of course I have given it some thoughts. I think the aerobatics guys have the right formula: The aircraft must be light, and the engine must be large with a CS prop. Within the frames of what is practically doable with the -4 without having to redesign things, my plan is to have a light and simple cockpit (enigma only + gps), light or no paint, an IO 320 with inverted oil system and a CS prop.
 
Suggestions 4 ultimate 4

Many thanks for the useful tips and suggestions for my "Ultimate 4".

Although I enjoyed my RV8 as a tourer it never really had the handling that I wanted, feeling heavy despite a "light" build and new 180hp XP with MT CS prop.

Curtiss' suggestion of putting the battery on the firewall of my -4 seems logical, although I hope that this wont require ballast in the back when flying solo, (as with my RV8).

My target weight is around 950lbs or less. The spec is Day VFR only, with simple spec of D180 and backup ASI/ALT, Filser Com and Txpndr.

Dan Ch's table of RV-4 weights suggest that 900lbs is acheivable and there is one example (N311SV) at 874 !

Raised wheel pants for grass strips and probably sticking with the Catto 3 blader for acro and an FI 160hp.

I like the idea of the Sam James cowl, however, it seems like a great deal of work for the extra few Hp ..... and time spent building is time I could be flying !

Thanks for all the help, any further suggestions welcome.
Nic






Hi Nic,
My buddy just finished his -4. He has a D 180 and a backup airspeed which I don't think you even need since an experienced pilot should be able to use the GPS for speed or use the correct nose/horizon angle. One instrument. Go for 160 HP. If you want good acro, go with a compromise prop pitch. He went for max speed pitch and it still jumps off the ground at 985#. One comm and xpdr. No paint and raise the wheelpants 1/2" more if you do a lot of grass runways. Absolutely don't shorten the stick length since Van has it just right....otherwise you'll really change the feel of the -4.

Depending on your operations whether day/night, no lights but a single strobe.

YMMV.......BTW Sharkey, the -8's don't have that light, nimble feel like the -6's or -7's for some reason, certainly not like the -4's. For the bigger guys, 6'4"/240# or more, the -8 is the way to go.

Regards,
 
Hey Jon Baker...

As a point of reference. My wood prop/320 recently burned 6.36 gph at 145kts over a 3 hr flight. Dual climb rates are at least 1500fpm and the one time I checked it solo at 60F it was just about 2,000fpm. So, we're not far off from your goals...

Good luck and I hope you decide to build again...

John
 
Close but no cigar

As a point of reference. My wood prop/320 recently burned 6.36 gph at 145kts over a 3 hr flight. Dual climb rates are at least 1500fpm and the one time I checked it solo at 60F it was just about 2,000fpm. So, we're not far off from your goals...

Good luck and I hope you decide to build again...

John


Yeah, I know you can get great fuel burns on a big (comparitively speaking) engine with proper leaning, especially if you're set up to go LOP. The problem is that 99.9% of the time, I'm just buzzing around doing short hops or T&G's, and then that O-320 burns more like 8-10 gph. An hour of fun winds up costing $50, and since you can never do just one, it's really closer to $100.

So I've been wondering how much I'd actually give up if I built a 4 with, say, 125 hp. .
 
I sold my 6 last summer because of the cost of flying it with fuel approaching $5/gal. Now I'm wondering if a minimal 4 would be the answer. In the early days, weren't there some 4's built with O-235's and O-290's? Anybody know what the performance figures were? I don't care much about cruise speed but if I could get a 1200fpm climb dual and still get a usable cruise speed at 5gph, I'd be building again.

John,

FYI - My O-290-D2 (135 hp @ 2,600 RPM) powered -9 (990 lbs empty) goes up around 1,400 fpm at GW with a Catto two blade prop. I'm still working on the fairings so I don't have Vc numbers yet but I'm seeing 160 mph w/o the fairings at 8,500' DA.
 
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I find this thread interesting. Thats Why I'm more interested in the RV3. I want the performance and I'm willing to give up a second seat. Many of the posts talk about the critical wt. and balance issues when trying to use the 4 for pax. rides etc. It always seems that the the willing pax is a bubba type. I'm in the bubba catagory as well and I wont have to deal with a pax. issue with one seat. Most pilots in the RV community can get someone a ride in a friends 6,7,8 or 9 anyway. Over the last two months I have been doing research on the 3 and 4, bought preview plans for both and have perused Randy Lervold's site along with whatever I can find on the internet. I have run wt. and balance on both models and it's obvious on paper that the 4 is a little touchy for what I'm looking for in an RV. Everyone has different needs and most of us can only afford one airplane toy so it falls back to the series of compromises.Some guys have mentioned using an O-290 or even an O-235 for the fuel burn, I find that these engines use almost as much fuel as an O-320 when running around the pattern at low altitude. On the O-290 unless you find new old stock parts the new stuff isn't cheap.
 
Ultimate RV-4

If you want light why not get a Pitts or Sukhoi? There'll be no doubt about what is lighter, rolls faster, etc! Bill
 
I agree with the others that have suggested sticking with an O-320 and throttling back to save fuel. An RV-4 with an O-235 or O-290 will be much, much harder to sell and will sell for a lot less money. I can throttle back to 1700 RPM and still be doing 120 mph when just tooling around local and burn less fuel than a C-150.

It's nice to have the versatility to go either fast or slow. To save additional fuel you can keep the weight down and strive to reduce drag with good fairings, minimize external antennas, etc.

My -4 has 160HP Lyc. Catto 3-blade and weighs in at about 970 lbs. I'm very happy with it. Most of my flying is solo or with a 35 pounder or 110 pounder in the back.

The RV-4 is such a sweet machine, it's too bad they don't put out a match-hole kit for it, a lot more people would build them, I'm sure.
 
I'm in the bubba catagory

All bubbas need to attempt getting into a -3 before they make a final decision to buy the kit.... ;)

I like the RV-3 as well but it is a tight fit for me (6'1", 190).
 
All bubbas need to attempt getting into a -3 before they make a final decision to buy the kit.... ;)

I like the RV-3 as well but it is a tight fit for me (6'1", 190).
Thank you. I did sit in a 3 recently. And it has more room than the front of a 4 for me anyway. As I posted , I have been doing about two months worth of homework.
 
Splitting the Cost

Fuel burn/smuel burn. The back seat gives you greater utility. I intend to put a sign in my -4 back seat that reads "Fuel Donations Gratefully Accepted."
 
Touch n Gos ???

Jon,

Buzzing around doing T&Gs etc burns nothing for gas !! Nothing !! As others have mentioned, when your're out after work just going for a short ride, throttle back. 125 or so mph can get burns down in the 5's gph. Touch n Gos fuggeddaboutit. You have to throttle back in the upwind to stay in the pattern anyway. You spend most of the circuit at 1200 rpm or so. Not much fuel burn. Besides, it's great fun when you get a new controller in the old aerodrome. Shortly after takeoff, he calls to check your altitude. You tell him you're passing through 3k feet. He replies "aaah.. Ok, frequency change approved .... :). Never gets old....

John
 
cost of fuel

You think you have to pay a lot for Avgas in the U.S., at my airport in the UK it costs me $2.82 per litre. As a US gallon = 3.785 litres that equates to $10.67 per US gallon. Now! doesn't that make you feel better?


Keep it OH so light. 320= good, Fixed wood prop=good. Keep the paint, interior and panel light but functional. For speed you might pick up a few MPH from a fast back deck. I like the bubble canopy look better but fast back is a little faster and should not add much weight.

The MOD that would be on my must list is a Sam James cowl or style (you could make your own if adventurous). If going fixed prop by all means get a long cowl and use a longer extension cowl.

Personally I'm a Sensenich metal prop fan. It out performs all fixed props in my opinion, and you have the option to re-pitch a metal prop. I say the Sensenich outperforms all others in my opinion. There's not much data or recent side-by-side comparisons of fixed props. I base my opinion on the fact metal props tend to out perform wood props in top speed (due to wood blades being thicker), and two blades tend to outperform three blades, especially for low HP engines. Low HP meaning less than 300-350 HP). Three blades have advantages, but top speed on lower HP engines is not one of those advantages. Van did a fixed prop fly-off/side-by comparison test a long time ago. The last prop fly-off Van did was for constant speed props but included one fixed Sensenich. The fixed Sensenich out performed several C/S props at 8,000ft @ 2,500 rpm.

In my opinion, between the Sensenich and Catto, the Sensenich is faster. However the Catto is lighter and likely smoother.

Be careful making your RV-4 too light on the nose, it will severely limit passenger and bags. Solo it's a dream to fly like this, with a light engine/prop set-up, but dual acro might be impossible except with all but the lightest passenger. Heavy paint (and primer) tends to move CG aft. On the other hand, if you have good basic forward CG (at empty weight) for dual ops, it tends to be a little nose heavy for solo ops. When I say nose heavy, I mean still within limits. You really only notice fwd CG when flying solo on approach. Also you have the option of putting a little ballast in the baggage for solo ops. Of course fwd CG is safer than too far aft CG out of limit, which is a no-go. Fwd Basic empty CG gives you more loading flexibly than aft. When trying to fly with passenger and bags you need nose weight. Everything you put in the plane +pilot, goes aft CG. If you end up nose light, with a tail heavy basic empty CG, you may NOT be able to do dual acro and passenger & bags will be limited for non-acro flying. Just keep this in mind. There are ways to play with CG, but choosing a super light or super heavy engine/prop combo makes your options limited. There are lots of 320/wood and 360-180HP (even 200HP)/constant speed prop combos in RV-4's. It's all about trade-offs. If you go with a light engine/prop and need more nose weight, you can always retain the heavy starter and alternator. Some use a harmonic weighted balancer on the hub between the engine and prop. This damper adds weight on the nose and claims to help increase the rotational inertia of light props for better engine idle.

If you don't go with a Sensenich, consider other brands of fixed wood two blade props, with out the fiberglass wrap. They are lighter and cheaper than Catto, with similar performance. The glass cover over wood is not impervious to rain or rock erosion. Catto makes good stuff, no doubt. I'm not saying Catto is bad, just look at all brands of props before you buy. I do like the composite wrap and integral crush plates of the Catto. However repair on a prop like that is a big question mark. The trick is don't damage it.

Wood props require you RE-torque prop bolts periodically because wood swells and shrinks with humidity. This is another advantage of a metal Sensenich, no need to re-torque and better rain erosion resistance. Really take a look at the Sensenich. You can always have a prop shop (or you) paint it some fancy color other than gray if you want style.

What was the deal with the RV-8?

You will love the RV-4, one of Van's best. Less room than a RV-8 yes but if you are not a high on the "Bubba scale" it fits fine. KEEP IT LIGHT! :D



PS: a lot of folks like the Carb I see above. I'm in the same Carb fan camp, for light and simple, but frankly buying a new engine today you have the choice between Carb and FI at the same base price. The FI installation is about a $700 more (high pressure boost pump), but FI is technically better once set up. FI fuel savings or potential savings, even if only 1% or 2% in cruise, means more now that gas is $4.50/gal. In the day most RV builders bought used engines and got what you could get, mostly carbs. FI is how I'd go today if buying a new engine, even if it cost a little more to buy and install.

360/180HP is pretty good trade off weight to HP. Cost diff is small between 320/360 if buying new. I would not go low compression 360, but it would be better for autogas. I'm not autogas fan. A 320/160HP have the same compression as a 360/180HP (8.5:1). 8:5:1 can get away with premium autogas I understand, but pretty soon all autogas will be ethanol infected. Yea I know ethanol is great?

Ethanol Rant: It takes almost more units of energy to make ethanol from corn than units of ethanol energy you get out. Ethanol has been over hyped by the Farm lobby. DID YOU KNOW, price of BEER is going up!?! Why because Farmers are growing less lovely barley to grow more corn for ethanol. If that is not enough to hate ethanol, I don't know what is. :D The reason ethanol works in Brazil is because they use sugar to make ethanol, which has a much more favorable energy in/out ratio than corn. Also I recall sugar uses less land than corn, per unit of energy. Corn is not a desirable crop to make ethanol and drives food cost up. We only use it in the USA because we grow lots of corn, and the Farmers in Iowa have a good political lobby.
 
England is small

So at least in an RV there is no reason NOT to lug mogas to the airport...Or has our tax happy Government made that illegal since I left 10 years ago?

English Frank
 
Ultimate Pitts, Sukhois and RV-4's

Why not a Pitts ? .. I enjoyed my SIS for a few years. Fun to fly - yes, but lacks a view, lacks touring capability and ultimately doesnt tick enough boxes.

Sukhoi - never flown one, but rather too "ultimate".

My idea of the "ultimate -4" is of a very practical lightweight tourer that can also be used for aerobatic fun (one up), economical to run and maintain and that can be built for around 50-60K.

Of course it must be a real looker too, "Mean Green" comes to mind.

Cheers, Nic


If you want light why not get a Pitts or Sukhoi? There'll be no doubt about what is lighter, rolls faster, etc! Bill
 
Sam B...very funny!

Sam,

That is the BEST 'beating of a dead horse' logo I have ever seen! I could REALLY use that in my job!

Very fuuny....and I know funny!
 
Jon,
I have an O-320 f/p wood prop RV-4. I drive around at 2200 rpm most of the time because I'm not heading anywhere. Throw in a few t+g's each flight and my total burn is about 5.5 gph average. (no leaning)
I'd stick with the O-320. Climb and cruise still there if you want it.
BTW, build light is good advice. I bought light, and as I re-work the whole airplane, It's shedding pounds as I go. An entire vacuum system will soon be for sale as a matter of fact.
I love the feel of the 4, with the utility of being able to give my kids a ride on the rare occasions they are interested. But... I'm setting up shop to build a 3 because they won't be young forever. ;-)
DM



Yeah, I know you can get great fuel burns on a big (comparitively speaking) engine with proper leaning, especially if you're set up to go LOP. The problem is that 99.9% of the time, I'm just buzzing around doing short hops or T&G's, and then that O-320 burns more like 8-10 gph. An hour of fun winds up costing $50, and since you can never do just one, it's really closer to $100.

So I've been wondering how much I'd actually give up if I built a 4 with, say, 125 hp. .
 
Is the 4 that much more effecient than the 6?

Jon,
I have an O-320 f/p wood prop RV-4. I drive around at 2200 rpm most of the time because I'm not heading anywhere. Throw in a few t+g's each flight and my total burn is about 5.5 gph average. (no leaning)
I'd stick with the O-320. Climb and cruise still there if you want it.
BTW, build light is good advice. I bought light, and as I re-work the whole airplane, It's shedding pounds as I go. An entire vacuum system will soon be for sale as a matter of fact.
I love the feel of the 4, with the utility of being able to give my kids a ride on the rare occasions they are interested. But... I'm setting up shop to build a 3 because they won't be young forever. ;-)
DM

I had the same strategy with my 6a w/O-320/160hp, but I never got anywhere close to 5.5gph. I had a C/S prop and always pulled it back to 22/2100 as soon as I got out of the pattern. I could get about 6.5 cruising at 55% like that, which is what the book says it should burn. But in a real hour, with a few T&G's, some manuevering practice, and a climb to 5000 for some slow flight and stalls, my real world burn was usually closer to 8 gph, even though I throttled back when I was S&L.
 
Ultimate RV4

Hi All
I have a RV4 and this post has made me ask myself what I would have done different to make my RV4 an ultimate RV 4. Here?s the list
Lycoming O360 with P-mags and carbureted
Catto 3 blade prop with 4? prop extension
Sam James cowl and wheel fairings
GRT Efis with engine monitor
SL40 and GTX 327
Spartan interior (less is more)
Razor type turtle deck and canopy
Harmon Rocket fuel tanks (54 gallons)
No frills FW190 paint job.
The weight should be #920 to #930 empty
Performance will be outstanding with light controls
 
dry engine weights

I just looked up the dry weights for a O-320-E3D and a 0-360-A1A in type certs.

0-320-E3D dry weight is 249 lbs. including Slick mags.
0-360-A1A dry weight is 258 lbs. without mags.

If you use the 360 with light weight starter and alternator you should have only a few pounds difference. Wood props for both engines should be about the same weight. Slick mags weight 4 lbs. each for either engine. Light weight starter and alternator can make up the difference in weight on the 360.
Jeff Swords
N114JS
 
Ultimat Rv-4

I have an O-360, wood prop, carbed, slicked RV-4 with no lights or gyros, steam gauges and a radio and transponder. It came in at 945lb with oil when new, and gets 172KTAs @ 75%. CG is ~17%MAC empty. This is a bit too far fwd. for solo acro, but it is still OK. Pax weights aren't a problem. I fly from a grass strip. If you went with a O-320, I'd put the battery on the firewall or use a metal prop.
What would I do different to build the ultimate -4? I'd use an O-360 again as the weight difference to a -320 is negligible, I'd use a sensenich metal prop or WW200RV, Ellison throttle body,fastback mod, baffle plenum and other paser inspired mods.

Getting more carried away, possibly solo from rear seat, extra fuel (HR-3??)., optional solo canopy also, and reset the tail incidence so no elevator deflection at cruise. May also reduce wingspan by a couple of feet to improve the roll rate, and negate the tail incidence problem also. Then I'd go fly an externsive flutter test phase!
 
Great ideas. I like the solo from the back idea, with two canopys. One solo and one for front seat pax. Could you make the C/G work out so a normal guy could fly from the back without carrying any useless ballast up front? (wondering) This would be a fantastic aircraft.
DM


I have an O-360, wood prop, carbed, slicked RV-4 with no lights or gyros, steam gauges and a radio and transponder. It came in at 945lb with oil when new, and gets 172KTAs @ 75%. CG is ~17%MAC empty. This is a bit too far fwd. for solo acro, but it is still OK. Pax weights aren't a problem. I fly from a grass strip. If you went with a O-320, I'd put the battery on the firewall or use a metal prop.
What would I do different to build the ultimate -4? I'd use an O-360 again as the weight difference to a -320 is negligible, I'd use a sensenich metal prop or WW200RV, Ellison throttle body,fastback mod, baffle plenum and other paser inspired mods.

Getting more carried away, possibly solo from rear seat, extra fuel (HR-3??)., optional solo canopy also, and reset the tail incidence so no elevator deflection at cruise. May also reduce wingspan by a couple of feet to improve the roll rate, and negate the tail incidence problem also. Then I'd go fly an externsive flutter test phase!
 
A lot of RV 4 pilots /builders have given some great data to run with. One mod. that many have mentioned is the fastback, which to me looks better. Sounds like the 4's that fly welll are in the 930 +/- empty weight range regardless of engine/prop combo.
 
I am really enjoying this thread. My ship is the -4 w/Sensenich wood, O-360 w/carb and a mite heavy (1032#)

What I have thought of doing is removing the rear seat completely, moving the front seat back a bit, and installing those extra fuel tanks.

Imagine a single-seater with neutral cruise trim and more room up front. (sigh)

Just day dreaming... ;)
 
Open Cockpit

OK, game's over. Sam Cern's Open cockpit 4 on todays VAF page is IT. The DEFINITIVE "ultimate 4".

Sam -- how about some details?
 
RV-4

IO-360 parallel valve; Whirlwind aerobataic prop. Vertical roll with enough left to pull or push out-yes; double immelman-of course; rolling 360-why not; tumble-spectacular.

pitchisimportantln2.jpg
 
Lots and lots of bang for the buck...

When I finished The Bandit back in 96', it weighed in at 925 lbs bone dry. It had a narrow deck 0-320 with a Sterba prop, minimum NAPA gauges and rattle can interior paint, polished exterior with rattle can fiberglass.
I made the test flight (my first RV flight) from a 900' grass strip running MoGas. It climbed smartly at 1200 fpm in 90 degree heat and cruised at 150 knots burning 8 gph, wow! I routinely performed the IAC sportsman category acro and was a wonderful backcountry airplane, a 180 mph super cub if you will. Total investment, $22K. With my 380X150X5 tires I now use on the Rocket, rough strips are less so and would be perfect on the -4. With the proper penny pinching and minimum panel using an Enigma or similar you too could have one for under 30K today. My RV4 gave me great service for 11 years and 1400 hours and although I love my Rocket, it's hard to beat the Bang for the Buck of a lightweight RV4.
My advice, stick by the plans, keep it light and don't break the bank buying bells and whistles. Changes? Rocket wings and fastback with 44 gallon tanks, 0-360 with 7.4 pistons (autogas)and a Airflow Performance Injection(approved for Mogas), LED lighting, even simpler panel, maybe just an Enigma period. Your mileage may vary...

Nuff said...

Rob Ray
 
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