teookie

teookie

Member
Hi all.

I'm a 27 yr old Mechanical Engineer, and I'm working as a design grunt at a large aerospace company called Boeing (maybe you've heard of them), which I thoroughly enjoy. I'm out of school for two years now, I have two kids, a wife, a mortgage, and I dream of one day building my own airplane. Here is my question: can I do it with an engineer's wage? I have no aspirations to "climb the latter" of sales or management (which I am told is where the money is), I'm very happy down in the trenches doing the 'real work'. :rolleyes:

Should I just give up now so I'm not disappointed? I'm pretty sure that my families ability to consume money is going to increase faster than my salary, especially as my kids get older and more numerous. :eek: :eek: :eek:

In reality I guess I know the answer already; if I work hard, and budget wisely, yadda yadda... I'm really just thinking out loud here. -however- if anyone in similar situation has successfully built a plane and would like to do a good dead, I could put your encouragement to good use. :eek: :eek:
 
Ehh, dude, kids and starting a family, hard to commit 50K plus to an airplane project.
 
Yeah...but you don't have to do it all at once and if you can be patient you can probably pull it off.
Good Luck,

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Options -- a good thing

Teookie asks Should I just give up now so I'm not disappointed?

Well, a few couple of ways to go here, especially at the young age of 27.

You might consider a very slowww build. (Many of us do anyway, as a result of diversions and distractions.)

You might also consider a partnership with 1 or 2 like minded would-be builders.

You can tool-up and order the empenage kit for a relatively modest investment, and recoup much of your investment if you need to sell after completion of the emp.

Good luck with your decision.
 
This IS an RV forum, but as a young guy with 2 kids, and don't know if the wife works or not, it could be pretty tough. RV's can get expensive, but with some scrounging and budgeting you can come in at something in the mid-upper 30's at the really low end (from what I've heard).

If you're just interested in building there are less expensive options. We have several chapter members in my local chapter building Zeniths, and I built a plans-built bi-plane for around 12K (which is now a hangar mate for the RV).

Can you build an airplane? Yup. No doubt. What kind? That kind of depends on what you can put into a project. Also depends on how much work you want to do. Plans-built, kit, quick-build. The more you put in sweat equity, the less the cost.

Jim
 
Yeah, Seth is right. I didn't have a real budget to hold to for my build, and happily have a lot invested, but I can tell you for sure that it can be done for way less than some of us are spending. Don't let the dollars that other people are investing in their project detour you from how to make YOUR project happen. It can be done many different ways.
Now I know for sure, if my situation were different, I could make it happen.
Paying for the fuel after it is done is a whole other thing though :).
 
What's your 'income-to-lifestyle ratio'? Can you in good conscience spend a few hundred a month, on average, for a hobby? Can you in good conscience spend maybe 10 hours a week away from family duties & family entertainment? With 2 kids, the time commitment required would concern me as much as the money. Unless, of course, you can make it a family project with willing participants.

The best choice might be something that can be plans-built. You can buy materials in tiny increments & view it as many small parts building projects, with no real goal of a completion date for the sum of the parts. I've met a couple of people who scratch built RV-6's. If you can find a set of early plans, there's supposed to be enough info on them to build from scratch. (Not that I'd want to try it...)

Thorp T-18 & Mustang II come to mind for scratch building, also just about any tube & fabric design. The Bearhawk might be a good choice if you want to 'bring the family'.

Charlie
 
I wouldn't give up, but you should definitely be realistic. My take is that for many of us, our eyes are bigger than our budget and we end up spending more than planned. I do believe that you could build an RV for 35-40k (todays dollars of course) if you are good at scrounging etc. My original thought when I started my 9A was that it would cost me about $55-60k (QB) but I am significantly over than number now (closer to 85k). While I did spend more on a few things than necessary, I by no means have bought every flashy bit and piece that I could have purchased.

There are a number of other threads on the forum that discuss some of these issues. Best of luck.

cheers,
greg
 
No Pity

No pity from me. You have a family and a career right out of school. Sounds to me like things are going your way.
Like many here, I waited until I was well established with older kids before I felt I had the time and money to devote to building. Guess that once I saw 40 in the rear view mirror it felt like it was now or never.
IMHO don't wait, don't have a completion date, and remember who and what is most important in your life. Parts will not go bad on the shelf while you coach little league or wait for a week of OT for materials. Enjoy the process and the kids for all their worth. Just don't forget to build once in a while....
 
Time and Money. While the Money seems like the biggest obstacle, in fact it could be time. The money commitment is easy to estimate. Just take your best guess and double it. The time commitment with a young family can be much more of a problem. You don't want to start a new post 4 years from now that reads "95% complete project - DIVORCE forces sale!"

I think an excellent alternative is to figure out a plan to supplement your income, use the money to pay off a home equity loan - proceeds which were used to buy a finished flying RV. Even with the interest paid on the loan, and the time used to supplement your income, the amount of time and money invested to reach the final goal - a finished airplane would probably be LESS!
 
Do what you heart tells you with the caveat that you don't want to be plane rich and cash poor. Good luck with your decision.
 
One more thought....

There are a lot of good thoughts posted; my 2 cents worth is that what you do depends in part on the family. If they are interested and supportive (vs. just approval) of your flight/interests, it could become a family affair. If you spend hours by yourself building, alone, then its not good. Lots of folks have previously posted comments on building with the wife and kids. Even if you take 15 years, they will be fun years for everybody.

While, as somebody already pointed out, this is an RV forum; building an RV can be the ultimate goal - you can still build lots of great planes from scratch at a very low cost. I waited until the kids where grown, then still built a Kitfox (over 7 years) to hone my taildragger skills - knowing an RV was ultimately in the picture. The -8 will probably take 7 more years because I enjoy the building - but I enjoy it.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Thanks for everyones comments and thoughts. I did not expect to see two pages of replies by the next time I logged on!! Testament to the RV community I guess.

I think my problem here basically boils down to impatience. I come to this web site, read up on others projects and think, "that is SOOOOO COOOOL! I'm TOTALLY doing that!" and I want to do it now! I know I'm young, and this will sound like blasphemy to some, but life is only so long and I want to accomplish this goal sooner rather than later.

But alas, as someone pointed out, things are in reality going pretty well for me. I have a great family, a job I enjoy, and pleasant livings conditions. A project of RV proportions is not in the cards right now, but it may be (better be!) sometime in the future. Looks like I need to limit my intake of VAF to preserve my sanity. :rolleyes:

In the meantime, if anyone in the N. Alabama area would like help bucking rivets, drop me a line and I'll swing on by.

Thanks again.
 
The tail kit will cost you around $3K for it and basic tools. Go for it and see if you like building and see how it fits in your life.

Are you a pilot now? If not, start working on that. Make sure you enjoy flying (as a pilot not just a passenger) first!
 
Combining some thoughts from above

Brantel brings up a good point. If you are not a pilot, go get your license and fly. Skip the build until later. Although rental rates seem high, I can assure you it is WAY cheaper to rent a plane than to own one. Especially if you can only get out once or twice a month.

I agree with asav8tor. Time may be more limited resource than money at your stage of life. I'd use it to fly rather than build. Use this as a sneaky way to get the rest of the family to buy into the build. Flying is cool. They all may "get into it" and you will have plenty of teenage help (and the wife) when you decide to build.

Plan, Plan, Plan. Gather tools and skills. Join local EAA. Have an ulterior motive. IE. Every house I have rented or owned since I was your age has included a "building area". I never knew exactly when "the build" would happen, but I never allowed limited house space to be in the way. It took 20 years for me to get started (a bit too long actually) and most of that was because I delayed finishing my PP SEL.
 
28 years ago I also had 2 years of experience working with Boeing (in Wichita) as an engineer. I had the dream to build then, but it just wasn't yet the time for me. It took another 26 years before the time was right to start building, plus another year to figure out that an RV was the plane that was right for me to build. But, in that time, I build up my savings and am able to buy the kits as fast as I can build them.

To build an RV, you will certainly need some money saved up. A tail kit plus the tools you need will easily cost $4K, probably closer to $5K. I think it rather dumb to spend that kind of money today for something that will just sit around for who knows how long until you can enough money to finally start on the next kit. I mean, if you can devote only $200/month for building, it will take you 2 years or more just to get the tools, then a few more years to get the tail kit, and many more years to get the wing kit, etc.

But, as an engineer, you should enjoy an above-average salary and if you can keep your living expenses in check and set up a good savings plan, it won't take you 28 years to be able to save up money to build a plane. Of course, your family has to come first. College saving plans and a retirement plans are more important than airplane savings plans. So, building an airplane is certainly something that you can do, but the priorities have to be set and it will take time. As your salary increases, you may be able to devote more funds to your airplane savings, so a 20+ year wait like mine probalby won't be necessary. Sure, you may be able to get a loan to speed up the process, but that is not something I recommend.

Keep the dream alive and you will eventually live it.
 
One thing I would suggest is setting aside a little "mad" money each month if you can come to an agreed upon amount with your bride. Even a small amount will add up over years. For me, at my wife's suggestion, I set aside any income that was not part of my normal salary. That meant teaching some extra classes in my university's Executive MBA program and applying for/getting some grants for research/consulting. When I had to get up at 3:00 a.m. to catch a flight I would tell myself "you may not be driving rivets, but you ARE working on the airplane."

You don't have to have all the money when you start. Going the slow build route gives you more time to gather the funds for the next step. The big expenditures are at the end. Ask me how I know! :)

But I agree with others. You have a great thing going on right now. Don't let an airplane or anything else mess that up. Unfinished airplane parts are happy to sit on the shelf and wait for you; wives and children are not.
 
Your question sounds familiar

This will be a bit of a ramble, sorry about that.

I started in 2003, and have mostly finished the empennage, and barely begun the wings. I'm building a new shop to replace my old one, so I've had another year's delay.

I am an electrical engineer (20 years in, 40+ years old, got to the now or never part).
Two little kids, one at-home wife. I work a lot of extra hours, and am away from home often. I will never be someone who completes a kit in 2.5 years and flies off happy to build four airplanes, an helicopter and a boat.

As a single-income family, and I make a reasonable salary, there are times it is still very tight. I got lucky on a couple of investments, and finished the mortgage 25 years early, which has helped a lot financially, which turned out to be the lowest priority issue anyway for other reasons.

With our situation, and the commitment to the family (re-read those vows again very carefully), you have to be very careful of how and when you work on the project, and who you work with. When you butcher a part and have to replace it, give it to a kid, and have them write their name on it. A couple of my daughter's friends got souvenirs this way, and left very happy.

** hot tip ** do not give a sharpie marker to a 3 year-old. That didn't turn out well.

Buy what you can as you need it. You don't need an awful lot to start work on the tail. Keep an extra-clean shop floor and table or bench top, so kids don't get cut on shavings.

When the kids were a little under 3 years old, they were allowed to come to the garage and draw or colour while sitting on the bench beside me.
Rule: no noise or power tools around young ears. No flying shavings.
If I need safety glasses, they shouldn't be there.

The oldest is 9 now, and has "her own" cleco pliers. She and her friends, and her little brother (5) were an amazing amount of help getting ready to rivet the VS/HS skins - little fingers put little rivets in little holes very quickly.

I did time trials, and they were a lot faster than me working alone.
They plugged in the rivets, I stuck on the tape, and sent them outside to the swingset while I shot the back rivets.

Call them back in, and the only limit to speed was the number of step stools.
- get a couple extra step stools, so you aren't haulilng metal shavings into the house.

There are lots of places that I can't involve the kids, and lots of places I can.
My wife is not very interested in helping, but many others here have been more lucky.

Van says you can't retain your existing lifestyle and finish an airplane in a reasonable period. He's right - I gave up on the reasonable period, and chose what I've wanted to do since age 8. I still have the bensen gyrocopter preview plan I saved up for then

Offer the wife opportunities to help. Discuss how much time and effort are involved, and some of the things you can do with it later. Doug Reeves had a good deal going where he was only allowed n hours per week, period.

Lee Valley Tools offers kid eye protection (goggle style) that I've used at about age 6. The local safety supply places have "narrow" style safety glasses that fit my 9 year old properly now. I'm trying to teach shop safety as well as work together, and we are all reinforcing each other now (put your tools away before cleanup is done, etc.)

Remember that a child's attention span is not very long, and it has to be interesting for them. I gave my kids a couple hundred airplane pictures to colour and draw on, and told the family that I'd build it, but they had to decide what colour and how it looked. They have been debating that for 6 years now, with no end in sight.

Buy three sets of cleco pliers, with the softer handles, not bare metal.
- putting skin on/taking it off I use both kids - one loading clecos into the pliers, and the other getting the clecos ready, and counting holes etc.
Emphasis on safe, accurate, then fast. We can cleco skin on in 1/3 the time I can do it alone. I offer "helper treats" (m&m peanut) stingily for "good help".
Whining removes one's treats.

It's good for the kids to see persistence, and ingenuity overcome challenges.

It has helped me to note (these from some of her friends):

I don't drink much any more, dont' smoke. That money goes to the airplane and the mortgage.
I don't spend one night a week and each weekend drinking beer and watching football/hockey/ballet.
I'm not out chasing other women. My "other woman" is a box of aluminum.
I'm not a practicing alcoholic.
She knows where I am.
She and the kids get bragging rights (my daddy is building a real airplane)
I was spending more per month on woodworking material and tools than I am now. (shhh , we'll discuss engine and avionics later...)

Oh, and do not tell the kids that they are really learning math, geometry, and measuring.

Make sure that you tell who's helping how much you appreciate and NEEDED their help. Everyone blooms with a thank you.

Go for it, and have fun. Treat the process as the goal, not the airplane, and you will be a lot happier.

If I get an airplane out the back end of this process, cool.
We aren't giving up, that's not the example to set for our kids :)
 
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Real info not Pity

Now that your out of school and working you need to realize you don't need 10 kids. Parents X 1 is a good number. You will need a place to build the RV. The size of a 1.5 car garage. You then need the tools. After this get educated on how to build. Many places will be happy to teach you and find a builder that needs help close to you. This way after a couple of thousand rivets you begin to learn. Now you got a place to build and SOME of the tools you can think about getting some plane parts. You live in the north west US so you can drive to Vans for parts. Slow build is the way to go unless you find lots of money legally. By now you have decided to build the RVxxxxxxxxx. The decision process can take a while. Do not spend your money now on the engine and instruments. They won't be needed for a while. So if you are like the rest of us you will be in your thirties. We've assumed you already have your pilot's license - Don't You? - Please take this as good info
 
Like I said before, you can start with the emp kit and the basic tools and at the most have $3000 invested. If you don't like it, sell it and make some of the money back on the emp and most of the money back on the tools.

It also does not matter if you leave the emp stored under a bed for 10 or 15 years. Mine hung from the floor trusses in our basement for 8 years. Now I am on my finish kit with an engine close to being in my garage. Interior is also paid for. There wont be a 30K panel in my airplane at the begining..That can wait for a few years.

I am an electrical engineer, with a stay at home mom, two kids, typical mortgage etc. Paid cash so far. Also manage to earn my instrument rating and stay current while doing so.

It is definately not easy! But it can be done.

Also.. Read this that Doug wrote a long while ago:

http://www.vansairforce.net/how.htm

Some here will argue that if your net worth is not over a million bucks, your salary well into the six figure range, house and kids paid for, etc. that an airplane is not in the cards for you. This is hogwash! If you want it to happen bad enough and have the motivation to do something about it, it can happen. Might take some time and will require some hard work on your end as well as lots of scrounging for deals ect. but it can be done!
 
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Can you do this?

Yes you can. Focus only on what you want. Don't, for one second, worry or even think about the how. It"ll happen for you when the time is right.
 
Answer is yes

If you want to make it happen, you will.

With 2 children, you are not going to have lots of spare time away from work to do large time blocks of building. If either of the children are inclined as time goes on, you have a helper that you can spend some MAJOR quality time together. For one couple I know, they are building together!!!

The building will probably take more than just a few years with the family responsibilities so you can spread the cost out and look for those bargins that you can save on a kit in a box that must be sold due to a divorce, death, sickness, don't want to finish, whatever.....

First step, buy the plans set and instruction of the plane you want (about 50 bucks) and read it. This will help you make an informed decision.

I also noticed that you can post a WTB (want to buy) on something and you get good responses. Wish I had joined VAF much earlier and save a few $$ where I could.

To answer your question, can this be done on the cheap? That's up to you. Nothing says you have to build a fully IFR equiped, leather seated, glass panel, deluxe cruiser to go wheels up.

I think you'll be amazed at what you can scrounge up when you start looking. The folks here are masters of it - all you have to do is ask them where the best deal in town is.

Good luck. I hope you can a chance to spend 2 thousand hours with your children building something together. I can't think of a better thing to do with them. You'll both get to learn something.
 
Yes, go for it.

But check with your wife first. Without having her on board, you won't make it very far.

The key is having a place at home to work on it as build time will be the bigger issue than money.

An RV can be built for surprisingly little money, if you take your time and look around. For me, tools were the budget buster. Every time I turned around I was buying another specialty tool.

The big money items, after the kits, are the engine, instruments, and options.

From the day you start keep an eye out for a suitable engine. I found mine for $3,500 w/ zero since major. 165 hours later it is still running good.

Build it simple and light by foregoing all the options such as electric trim, flap position sensor, trim sensor, interior panels, etc.

Keep the panel simple with an eye towards upgrading it later on. This is where a lot of guys go crazy with TCAS, multiple radios, video displays, and backups to the backups. All that stuff is nice but it isn't required to get you in the air.

Just start and you will find a way to complete it.
 
Well, due to everyones generosity in sharing advice, I feel obligated to share at least a few more details about myself and how I intend to hopefully accomplish my goal:

Currently working overtime to save up enough to get the PPL. Timeline is within the next 2 years. I've flown as passenger in a friends 172 but as someone mentioned, I need to make sure I enjoy being the pilot.

Currently making payments summing $500/mo on student loans and my car (wife's car is paid for). This money is going towards airplane parts once it is freed up (wife already approved this). Timeline is no more than 8 years. I intend to slow build and pay cash as I go. To me, this is the only way to do it. I had considered financing the engine, but sounds like there are some killer deals out there and I will have to keep my eyes open.

Currently have half the garage delegated toward RC airplanes anyways, so build space will not be a problem... until wings go on.

Time. Asked my wife a while back how much time a week she would let me work on the plane. Came to ~10 hrs which was what I hoped she would say. I don't expect to build it in less than 4 years. Actually it's not the flying I'm looking forward to, it is the building (at this point, anyways).

What to build? I'm currently leaning towards the -7, as the wife wants to sit next to me, not behind. I want pre-punched, or the -6 would definitely be under consideration. I also want to fly upside down. :rolleyes: Nose or tail? Tip-up or slider? Glass or steam? Those are questions for later (much later!). At times the -10 is appealing due to the fact that my kids live 2000 miles from grandmas house. But I don't even know if they'll be living in my house anymore by the time I start this project, let alone finish it. I think I have time to change my mind a few more times. :p

This goal is definitely going to be a stretch for me. I'm working on faith here, and hoping that if I dream enough, it will eventually become a reality.

Cheers.
 
Don't you mean 5 C-notes instead of 5 bills large which would be $5,000 (unless it's a REALLY nice empennage) ;)
 
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