R

RV_7A

Well Known Member
Hello all, I have a scenerio I'd like to pose to CFI's out there.

I am building an RV-7A and would like to do my flight training in it. Is it possible to get flight training in an RV up until I am ready to solo and is it possible to fly off the test phase hours on my own RV while soloing? I'm sure many will think I'm crazy for even considering this but since I'm the one building my plane I would have no problem with it. Otherwise I would like to have someone fly off my test phase hours and then solo in my own plane.

Basically I would like to do as much training as possible in my own plane.


-Jeff
 
Sure

Excluding the "your crazy part", there is nothing that procludes you from doing that.

Your solo endorcement will determine what you can fly. Usually SEL (Sinle Engine Land) or something to that effect.
I just recently watched a 16 year old STUDENT solo an extra300. (Whiz kid). Since that what his dad owns and thats what he learned in, then thats what he flies. He has a few hours in a CJ too. It could be anything. Its all relative in my book.

Best
 
Can vs. Should

Jeff:

A C-152 or similar trainer will be a lot more foregiving than a RV-7A. Flare a little bit to high, or strike the nose wheel a bit to hard and the C-152 will survive. Not to sure that the RV-7A would.

Debugging an airframe and learning to fly are two separate skills. If a problem occurs during your test flight stage will you be able to determine in a split second if the cause of the problem is the airframe or the pilot?

Keep in mind that you will make some mistakes during your early solo hours. Hopefully they will only be small ones and recoverable. Why risk your airframe?

Train in a trainer.

Good luck,

Mike
RV-8 Finish
 
Hi Jeff. This is a complex subject. Why don't you give me a call and we can discuss the details of your situation. I'm in Round Rock at 423-5332.

In any case, as a CFII and EAA Flight Advisor, I would not recommend your proposed course of action. I also doubt that you will be able to find an instructor that will endorse a student ticket for solo in a RV-7A for an initial solo or during phase I flight test period.

I would think you might be able to find someone to give you training in your RV after the flight test period and certainly a RV7A (or even 7, 6, or 6A) would be OK for training. I've have given a student pilot (post solo) training in his RV6A with no problems.

Another consideration is that many instructors prefer to do the initial solo training in a GA trainer. I would say that although "some" students would do just fine with a more responsive, wider performance range aircraft such as the RV, it often is the case that with the free time and money pressures on most student pilots, along with the wider range of student abilities, a GA trainer is better suited.

Now for the case of flight test, its very rare for the test pilot to have less than several hundred hours of experience in a variety of planes, especially during flying the first 5-10 hours. Most builders feel that they have too much time and money invested and want an experienced test pilot for the initial flights and perhaps for the whole flight test period. If they fit the bill, then with good prep and training, the testing usually goes well given the good design, builder support, and handling with an RV.

YMMV.

Deene Ogden
CFII, MEI, CFIG
EAA Flight Advisor, EAA Technical Counselor
 
Excellent info! Deene, I'll call you this weekend if you will be available. I have quite a few friends (previous RV owners) that would love to fly off my test phase hours so I'm pretty sure I could get that done within a week or so ;)

Ideally, I hope to take a month off from work and fly almost everyday. I feel that my learning curve would be much higher than just flying a couple hours once or twice a month.

-Jeff
 
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Flying a -7A vs my training days...

Hi Jeff,

I'll weigh in here as a low time pilot (337 hrs.) with almost all of my time in C-152's, 172's, 182's, 206, citabria, and several "scare you to death" ultralights.

I test flew my -7A myself after 10 take off and landings in my friend's 6A. I did not receive transition training on a professional level. I currently have 22 hrs on the plane over the last 2 months. I chose to not insure my plane while in motion as well. Call me crazy, stupid, or anything but a Piper lover, but it's a choice we all make differently.

Am I saying this is the right thing to do? No, just a personal choice. The -7A is a very honest, stable, predictable plane. However, it will turn your mistakes into a bad situation much faster than say a 152 would. Having said this, both will kill you just as dead if you get too slow while too low and you are behind the plane.

Back in the day, RVers did not have the ability to transition train as we do now. Were the stats worse then for very low time RV accidents as a % of population? I don't know.

I can tell you this though. On my first long X-country during the student pilot days I made the mistake of thinking I could land a 152 in a gusting X-wind that was right at its max x-wind component. Result = 2 roller coaster go arounds, side bouncing the plane down the runway almost slamming a tip into the ground (on a high wing!) striking the prop tip and trashing the nose gear tire rim.

It was an incredibly, humbling lesson that showed me I was not as good as I thought I was and that I was still behind the airplane. I'm positive that if I would have been in the situation in my -7A with just a few hours under my belt; I would be typing this from a hospital room, rehab, or not typing it at all...

Just an opinion, go beat up a spam can when you are working on your touch, confidence and beginning your search for the perfect landing.

Jeff
 
I like to think of things in terms of risk management. If you think about how much time, effort and $ you have poured into your airplane, do you really want to destroy it the first time you fly it?

Compare the cost to that of rental on a 152 for 50 hours or so. They really are great airplanes until you try to go cross country. But in the pattern, they are fun, forgiving and teaching airplanes.

There's no shortage of stories out here in cyberspace about the 16 year old soloing a 747 after 45 minutes of dual instruction, or whatever. Forget about those. What matters to you is your situation.

Are you willing to risk it?
 
Hi Jeff:

I'll hold off on all the comments regarding whether or not this is a smart decision. I agree that it depends upon the person. My recommendation is to go beat up a 172 trainer. Better yet, try a Diamond Eclipse -- generally better avionics, free castering nose wheel (despite the fact that many people think this design is weird or unique on the RV), bubble canopy, sticks between the knees and about ~15 knots faster than a -172, if I remember correctly. The Eclipse's at our airport have 430's with GTX-330 transponders and are CHEAPER to rent than the 172Rs and are a hell of a lot more fun. I would say the only flying characteristic that is dramatically different from a 172 is the T-tail on the Eclipse. The prop-wash does not have (as much as) a direct effect on the h-stab, but this is generally not even noticeable except when you're behind the power curve in slow flight. Oh yeah, if you're a subscriber to the pagan worship of aircraft building materials the Eclipse may not be for you since it's a plastic plane. :D

The US Airforce seems to deem Eclipse's worthy since the Academy is using them now.

If you haven't seen them, here's the Eclipse I'm flying these days:
N141MA-1.jpeg


At any rate, you'll probably have difficulty getting a CFI to sign you off for solo during the Phase I. Since during Phase I only 'required crew' is permitted I would say that this probably excludes flight training. I can't imagine a CFI endorsing someone's solo flight in an aircraft in which they never flew with the student.
 
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Read AC 20-27

According to the FAA's AC 20-27, "CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF
AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT

(2) Flight Instruction. You may not receive flight instruction during your flight test.
 
It's not just YOUR butt

This has remained unsaid for several messages, so I'll say it:

Please don't do this. I respectfully request that you not try to solo in your RV-7 until a) the Phase 1 program is over and b) you have enough experience to fly it without wrecking it. I don't know if it's illegal, but I humbly ask that you not do it.

You said in your initial post that "since I'm the one building my plane I would have no problem with it." Well, I do. You didn't ask, but this is a community, and you made a public comment.

There is more at stake here than your airplane and your life. First, you may crash into somebody else's property, or worse, kill someone on the ground or in another airplane.

Second, if you kill yourself in your a homebuilt airplane as a 10 hour student pilot, the stature of the entire homebuilt aircraft community will be reduced by your actions. Others may end up paying the price in additional government scrutiny, new regulations, or simply a reinforced belief by the general public that "Those littl airplanes are unsafe...specially the ones that those yahoos build in their garage! They should all be banned."

Will that happen just because you kill yourself? No, probably not. But it won't help.

Our military lets pilots with very few hours fly jets. We sent pilots with 300 hours into combat over Germany in B-17s in WW2. That, however, was after completing a very thorough training program in which cost is (almost) no object, and with a significant washout rate.

Can it be done? Sure. Should you do it? In my opinion, no. In the FAA's opinion, no. And in the community's opinion, from what I've read so far , no.

Regards,
Martin
 
Another thing to consider (don't think anyone mentioned it) is insurance. I suspect that the isurance company, assuming there was one, wouldn't offer coverage in a case such as this... I would be surprised if they did.

This reminds me of a story...indulge me for a moment...
For several years, I was heavily involved in the aerobatics community here at my home base. I have seen several newly licensed pilots, including myself, jump right into aerobatics wishing to buy a Pitts S-1 or other aerobatic airplane. I recall a particular exhange between a low time aerobatic pilot, it wasn't me :) , and a more experienced pilot. The new guy was complaining about the insurance rates he was going to have to pay for the Pitts he wanted to buy, but said he didn't have a choice because he wouldn't (not couldn't) buy the plane unless he could get it insured. The old-timer who had seen his fair share of ground loops and was upset about the recent rise in insurance rates fired back, "Great! So what you are saying is the only way you will buy this airplane is if we all share in the risk... go ahead and buy it, but just don't make it my problem". The new guy went silent. The point was/is, if you aren't willing to do something without insurance, then it probably shouldn't be done.
 
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I think Martin made areal good point about the rushed training in WWII. The difference between that situation and this one is necessity. There is no good reason to do your first solos in an untested aircraft. The risks of both are already substantial so why combine them if you don't have to? In my opinion, it's a very bad idea.

Steve Zicree
 
Back in the early '90s EAA asked many of us who were somewhat experienced at test flying amateur-built aircraft to join a program of flight advisors. The idea was for the "Flight Advisor" to meet with and help the proposed "test pilot" determine whether or not he was qualified to perform flight test duties in a particular aircraft. After this program got underway, it was found that the accident/incident rate involving people involved in the program went down drastically.
PLEASE get involved with a "Flight Advisor". The procedure can only help save your life, save your airplane, lower your insurance costs and further the advancment of general aviation. I'm sure no Flight Advisor will recommend what you are proposing.
My 2 1/2 cents worth.
Mel...DAR (also EAA Technical Counselor, Flight Advisor, Safety Officer.
 
Learning to fly while in the phase 1 test period is a bad idea!!!!

Test flying homebuilt aircraft is high risk activity even for experienced pilots.

Don't do it!
 
No, now get in the Cessna

No and I would never sign you off even if you could. :D Remember you have to be signed off for specific planes to solo, you must have received training in. Since someone mentioned you can't receive training during phase-I the answer is academic any way.

Now can you receive training and solo a RV after phase-I, sure, but I would have serious reservations about it as a CFI. Even than it would add many more hours to getting your ticket. Why? Well it is a high performance plane with less than stout gear for a student for one. The faster plane will be a handful and no doubt may take a little longer to gain proficiency in.

George CFI,II,MEI
 
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It looks like the verdict is in on this one, but I'd like to offer some words of consolation: Your first solo will rock in such a huge way it won't matter one tiny bit what it's in. Don't even try to argue this point cuz nobody's buyin. Mine was in a pretty beat down 152 and to me it felt like an F18, especially without the added ballast of a somewhat chunky CFI. It is one of the most memorable days in my life. And this way you'll get to have a second great day when you fly your homebuilt bird for the first time! :D

Steve Zicree
RV4 finishing
 
Training in an RV during test phase

You might want to pick up a copy of the 2006 FAR's and read it.

Sporty's has the 2006 FAR's on sale for under $10.00...
 
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A very good friend of mind was in a similar position, 80hr private pilot who rebuilt a wrecked barracuda (245hp retract low wing wood). High performance complex... He took an instructor with him and flew as 'required crew' or some BS. I begged him not to test it but he felt he could troubleshoot a problem better in the air and that he couldn't bear to have someone get hurt. He got through it but afterwords he confided that he made the wrong decision. I won't let anyone I know make that decision again.

Chuck
 
What you could do and has been done...

I know of a builder who was building an RV and getting his private at the same time. It was cool, while he was building he trained in typical trainers (Cessna/Piper I forgot) over the build period. All his training and check ride was in said factory trainer. He got his ticket right before his plane was done.

When the big first flight day came, he got an experienced pilot with lots of RV time to fly his plane a few times in Phase-I. There where no squawks. He got many hours of stick time in other RV's of a few friends, and when he felt proficient he flew his plane and finished flying off his phase-I. Happy ending.

Now this guy had lots of advice, practice and "evaluation" from others and was a good stick. A WELL trained low time private pilot with good transition training and evaluation of an instructor or at least an experienced RV pilot can make this a viable alternative.

(BTW the sad story above with the safety pilot is a lesson learned. Be careful who you get to fly your RV or you get to fly with you in your RV. I am a CFI with 1000 hours in RV's. A CFI with no RV time is not a good choice. Most CFI's will not train in planes they have no PIC time, but there is no rule for this in single engine planes. CFI's ARE restricted from training in twins that they have less than 10 hours PIC in. The reason is there where accidents. My personal rule is if I don't have time in a that model or like model I will not act as CFI in it, unless I get training first. Now I have flown a RV-4, -6, and would have no problem flying or giving training or (B)FR in a RV-7, -8 or -9.)

Low time and experience always has it's own (real and statistical) risk, but I don't think you need 100's of hours in a Cessna to fly a RV. I knew a guy that got his private 100% in a Stearman! 65 years ago that was common. The military takes zero time pilots and puts them in jets. Training, instruction and evaluation is key. Since a RV in phase-I is not allowed, above scenario is a reasonable one. Training a primary student in a phase-II RV, has already been addressed. George CFI,II,MEI,ATP, RV-4, building RV-7
 
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If I may offer my two cents ...

While the idea of doing the Solo Flight Instruction time while doing the Flight Testing on your RV does sound most efficient, however I have to say that I think this is a rather dangerous, and bad, idea.

Also, I do believe that one would be hard pressed to find a CFI who would sign on to such a program since that would mean that he would be essentially authorizing a Student Pilot to be a Test Pilot. I for one, do not know of any instructors who would be willing to provide a Student Solo Endorsement for any plane that he does not have a very high degree of confidence in.

I think that you would be better served by learning to fly in a Cessna or Piper,
then once your are comfortable with that, then getting your RV training in a completed RV,
then doing the Flight Testing in your RV.

While this process would be time consuming and expensive, I think that it would be much safer as well.

I hope this helps!
 
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