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USCANAM

Well Known Member
has been a pet peeve of mine for years, like the guy coming at me on the road with his headlights and fog lights on as if to say "look OUT for me". Wonder if he knows he almost melted my contact lenses!!
This topic got me thinking since strobes have been mentioned in another post this week.
Here are some of the basic rules that I try to follow to make me a little more proficient and thoughtful as a pilot.

1. Never put on my strobes until I'm in a position for take-off. I switch them off as I'm clearing the runway upon landing. Night or day, I never taxi with strobes on.
2. At night I use my taxi light to taxi right into a take-off position, then also switch on my landing lights for take-off.
3. At an un-controlled field, I'll switch on my taxi and landing lights about 5 miles out when landing.
4. At a controlled field, when departing VFR, I'll announce to ground my destination as part of initial call-up. Since I can't remember the last time I filed a VFR flight plan, at least it will be on tape where I was headed.
5. Taxi, land, and take-off keeping the nose wheel on the painted center line all the time. The only time I might deviate from this is upon landing, and I'm requested to expedite my departure from the runway. Then, I'll head directly for the taxi-way when speed permits.
6. Since I don't have a rotating beacon to turn on before engine start, and even if I did, I still let out a booming "clear", then look around for a few seconds before hitting the start switch. I'm really amused at the pilots who yell "clear" as they hit the start switch. Why waste your breath?
7. Taxi into take-off position. Then turn on fuel pump, strobes, do a last scan of engine instruments, and a scan into your take-off area. Only takes about 5 seconds, and is a professional way of doing it. I've been with pilots who after being cleared for takeoff from the hold short line on the taxiway are probably up to about 30 mph when they arrive on the center-line of the runway. Good technique for a short field take-off, but silly on a 5000 foot runway.
I've passed 6000 hours now, working up to 7000, and I still feel the need to follow some basic rules. Doing the basic things properly, will help in setting a good mind-set for the difficult chores.

Safe flying
Jack
RV9A
80 hours (sure could use some global warming here in New England!!)
 
In some planes you must...

If you fly any planes certified under the newer part 23 rules (Columbia or Cirrus for example) it is a POH requirement to have the strobes on if the engine is running DAY OR NIGHT. You may shut them down for yours or others safety - such as night taxi near a runway (I do).

I realize this is a forum dedicated to RV's and not newly certified planes, but while your rules of the road are great, just be advised that some folks cannot legally comply.
 
On a busy ramp, I don't trust a lusty yell of 'Clear!' to get the message out. The sad truth is, people still manage to walk into props, despite the noise of the engine, the prop blast, etc. If putting my strobes on 'bothers' someone enough to keep them out of my prop arc, I'm thinking it's worth it.
 
FAA Regs?

USCANAM said:
...
6. Since I don't have a rotating beacon to turn on before engine start, and even if I did, I still let out a booming "clear", then look around for a few seconds before hitting the start switch. I'm really amused at the pilots who yell "clear" as they hit the start switch. Why waste your breath?...
Click to expand...

It may not technically apply to Experimental category, but I was taught that the rotating beacon (strobes if you don't have the beacon) should be on before engine start and, consistent with safety, stay on while the engine is running. Not so? I thought it was a regulation.
 
I had over the years 4 different instructors. All wanted the strobes on while taxiing EXCEPT at night. During the day they cause no problems unless your very close and dumb enough to stare into them while they are on.
 
strobes

This is a great thread, thanks you all for giving both sides. I am a low time pilot with a beautiful new bird (RV-9). I realize there is a legal way and a cortices way of doing almost everything I am just trying to do what?s safe. Please keep this of thread going. (Trying to learn from ya?lls experience.
G.P.
 
RV's and strobes

The rv angle to this thread....

Most RV's have strobes in the notched wing tips and one on the tail. Furthermore, I think most folks also wire the rear strobe on an independent "beacon" switch and the wingtips on a "strobes" switch. At least speaking for me, I did this...

But that rear strobe is only visible from the sides and rear, and the wingtip strobes are only visible side and forward. So the legal requirement for "anti-collision lighting" in this typical rv configuration would seem to require *all* three of our strobes to be on for any night vfr operations. And if any one of these 3 strobes is inop, it seems the min night VFR requirement would not be met.

Anybody have another interpretation of the night vfr anti-collision requirement for the standard 3-strobe rv configuration?


Don
 
Just look at the lighting setup on any single-engine Cessna or Piper. The FAA type-certificated their airplanes, so by definition they meet the regulations.

Single-engine Cessna and Piper airplanes use a rotating beacon as the anti-collision light at night. Many don't have strobe lights, because they are not required.

Most RVs, mine included, do not have a rotating beacon, so the strobes are used as the anti-collision light(s). We RVers like a clean, low-drag airplane, so (at least on the newer wingtips) we bury the strobes in the front of the wingtips. To meet the "Anti-Collision Light Distribution Pattern" shown on page 4 of the Whelen Aircraft Lighting catalog (http://www.whelen.com/pb/Aviation/2008_Aviation_Catalog.pdf), we also add the tail strobe.

This document makes all of the night lighting equipment requirements very self-explanatory.

As far as strobe light usage, airline pilots usually have company procedures to follow and charter/corporate pilots typically mimic airline pilots. So, I take my cue from these professional pilots and closely follow their procedures, which are very safety-conscious and courteous toward other pilots.

Check post #10 for one airline's procedures.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=39100
 
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rwhittier said:
In some planes you must...

If you fly any planes certified under the newer part 23 rules (Columbia or Cirrus for example) it is a POH requirement to have the strobes on if the engine is running DAY OR NIGHT. You may shut them down for yours or others safety - such as night taxi near a runway (I do).

...just be advised that some folks cannot legally comply.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I'm thinking this isn't right. It is not a POH requirement to have the strobes on when the engine is running.

I checked the Cirrus Design website and looked through both the SR20 and SR22 manuals they have posted; I see nothing in the Limitations or Normal Procedures sections regarding strobes on while the engine is running. I did see, however, in the Normal Procedures section, what I think is a flawed checklist regarding strobe and nav lights.

Here are the first 4 items of the Starting Engine checklist, pg 4-11

1. External Power (If applicable) ....................................... CONNECT
2. Brakes ........................................................................... HOLD
3. Bat Master Switch ............................................ ON (Check Volts)
4. Strobe Lights...................................................................... ON

Yep, battery on, strobes on. Dare I say that's just silly? Leave 'em off. Just because a checklist says to do it doesn't make it gospel. If you insist on using the Book of Cirrus to direct you in your aircraft lighting needs, it'll set you up badly in regards to using the Nav lights. I'm referring now to the Before Takeoff checklist, pg 4-14... Nav lights--On isn't mentioned until item 14(b). So picture this; after completing the Before Taxi and Taxiing checks, you head out to the run-up pad at night at a busy airport, slavishly following their checklist, and guess what? You don't have any Nav lights on and you just blew FAR 91.209.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-checklist... as an airline guy it seems all I do is checklists, but this Cirrus one is badly written regarding the use of lights. I checked the Columbia 400 POH as well; nothing at all in the Limitations or Normal Procedures regarding strobe or nav light usage. Which is a good thing really, since FAR 91.209 tells all you need to know about the use (not installation) of position and anti-collision lights.

Soapbox..... Off
 
Garage Guy said:
I thought so too, but where is it!?
Click to expand...
jbDC9 said:
... FAR 91.209 tells all you need to know about the use (not installation) of position and anti-collision lights.
Click to expand...
Thanks jbDC9, that's it:

"No person may... (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted collision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off."
​

Now intuitively, I'd think "operate" would include starting the engine and taxiing, but the definition in FAR 1.1 doesn't really clear that part up. Ah, FAR's...

--Paul
 
Some FAR interpretations and light-use techniques here from another airline guy and airplane enthusiast. Not a lawyer or FAR guru, so if the interpretations are off, I'm certainly open to learning and adjusting! As for the techniques, just sharing (with no ill-will towards others whose technique differs), so pull from them what may work for you GP (and others).

For the regs piece...just took another look at 91.205 and 91.209, as well as some of part 23.

Part 23 describes installation requirements for anticollision lights, and prescribes aviation red or white. I think that's where we get that anti-collision lights are either beacons or strobes...sounds correct to me (and it may be more clearly specified as such, but I didn't find it, or just missed it). Part 23 doesn't list E-HB as one of the types of airworthiness certificates it applies to, but the wording of 91.209, in my interpretation, applies to all aircraft.

91.205 applies to aircraft with Standard Airworthiness Certs, but says that for night, position lights and anticollision lights are required.

91.209 doesn't specify which type of Airworthiness Certs it applies to, but rather says (paraphrasing here) that no person may, from sunset to sundown, operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights. It also says that no person may operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anti-collision light system, unless it has lighted anti-collision lights. Kinda funny wording, but it seems to say that if you have them, you must light 'em up when operating, and in that subparagraph it doesn't appear to specify day or night, on the ground or airborne...just "operating". However it does go on to say: "However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off."

So from 91.209, it may actually be a requirement to have the beacon or strobes on whenever you are "operating" the aircraft, and the Cirrus ref may be right. I would just hope that not blinding, or impacting the vision others at night, would be considered "in the interest of safety".

When I learned to fly (in certified airplanes) a while back, we always turned the beacon on before starting the engine (day or night), and since strobes seem to be able to replace beacons as the anti-smash light, it may just be that we should have the strobes on all the time (though...personal opinion here...I'm not a big fan of that).

For the technique portion of my diatribe (sorry), after reading the referenced post in the other thread, I'll say that my company's procedures are nearly identical to the FedEx bro's:

- Position lights on when there's electrical power on the jet (day or night).
- Beacon on any time the aircraft is moved (under power or under tow, day or night).
- Taxi light on at night when taxiing, off when stopped (let's the others out there know you are actually moving...and my personal technique is to use taxi-light courtesy, and turn it off if I sweep someone else's cockpit, or if I'm face to face with them).
- All lights on when crossing a runway (to help prevent runway incursions) and off when clear (helps let tower know you are clear).
- Taxiing into position, all lights but the main landing lights on. If there are others in the hold short or close to the end on the parallel taxiway, strobes can be held till you're rolling. I'll also turn off the turnoff light (points 45 deg to the side) on the taxiway side of the runway if there is someone there...just a courtesy.
- Cleared for TO, everything comes on...lets tower and aircraft holding short downfield know that you are rolling (and again, strobes can be held till you are moving if there is someone abeam your wings in line for takeoff...more courtesy...but I've seen many operators that turn strobes on when taking the runway, no matter what...and that's certainly their prerogative, and may be required by their Operations Manuals).

For the RV, this could translate to (and again this is but one technique):

- Beacon or strobes on before starting. (I haven't been using my strobes like this, but if it is in fact required by 91.209, I may start...or install a beacon, 'cause, like I mentioned, I'm not a big fan of full time strobes, but wouldn't begrudge someone for doing it, unless I was parked next to them in the hold short at night...then I'd hope they would be courteous with them.)
- Position lights on at all times at night (of course).
- Taxi light on for taxi at night, but be aware of others, and where your light is pointing, and be courteous. I turn mine off when I stop as well...just a habit.
- Taking the runway, strobes and taxi/landing light on, being courteous with the strobes when appropriate. If I had separate landing and taxi lights and was at a towered airport, I'd hold the landing light till I was cleared for takeoff...more habit pattern.

I feel the regs and the procedures are based on lessons learned in blood (like the Metroliner that was landed on in LAX a long time ago). It's critical to be seen, of course. If we're in an RV among airliners at a busy airport, our taxi/landing lights (and maybe even our strobes) probably won't bother the tall guys, but our professionalism in how we use them will be appreciated. I think that applies equally at non-towered airports with other RVs and other GA aircraft (and your lights may very well impact them more, so all the more reason to be courteous). Of course, safety trumps courtesy, so if there is ever a question of whether you are seen, use whatever it takes to be seen, including all lights, and the radio.

Sorry for the long post, but it's a good topic, and I'm interested in alternate interpretations and techniques...and I think you're taking a very professional approach GP!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Not regulatory, but AIM 4-3-23 spells out aircraft lighting best practices. Paragraph D specifically addresses rotating/flashing beacons for large and small aircraft.
 
Please recall the unfortunate crash of USAir Flight 1493 and SkyWest 5569 at LAX. The Skywest Metro was given "taxi into position and hold" clearance at an intersection on 24L while the USAir 737 was given clearance to land on 24L. Consistent with Skywest operating procedures, the Metro did not turn on its strobes until given takeoff clearance and since TIPH isn't takeoff clearance, their strobes were off. The Metro's beacon was on, but is obstructed directly behind the aircraft (it's on the front of the vert stab). The 737 crew didn't see the metro's nav lights and hit it just after the nosewheel came down.

TODR
 
Sorry, it is in the Cirrus POH

My POH is in the plane, and I am homebound recovering from minor shoulder surgery so this is the best I can do for now. But the training manual I got at delivery contains a copy of the POH. It is contained in the the "Normal Operations" section. It says "Strobe lights are required whenever the engine is running, day or night, unless they are causing a distraction hazard."

POH's are regulatory. Your stuck on the ground if one is broken - technically. Edited to add: Mine is an older plane with an older revision POH. Subsequent POH revisions added a section to "Limitations" to require their uses for ANY flight operation also, but I have not found the same language in Normal Operations. It is clear in the start and shutdown sequence they specifically require the strobes between the time you prime the engine and the time you shut it off. Will you be arrested by the strobe police - no but... that doesn't mean its optional. BTW, Cirrus Design is VERY clear, Strobes are required - I asked.

jbDC9 said:
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I'm thinking this isn't right. It is not a POH requirement to have the strobes on when the engine is running.
Click to expand...
 
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USCANAM said:
has been a pet peeve of mine for years, like the guy coming at me on the road with his headlights and fog lights on as if to say "look OUT for me". Wonder if he knows he almost melted my contact lenses!!
This topic got me thinking since strobes have been mentioned in another post this week.
Here are some of the basic rules that I try to follow to make me a little more proficient and thoughtful as a pilot.

1. Never put on my strobes until I'm in a position for take-off. I switch them off as I'm clearing the runway upon landing. Night or day, I never taxi with strobes on...
Click to expand...

I?ve never been bothered nor have I ever heard about anyone having a problem with strobes on other aircraft during the day. I switch them on right after engine start and I never taxi without them on.
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Please recall the unfortunate crash of USAir Flight 1493 and SkyWest 5569 at LAX. The Skywest Metro was given "taxi into position and hold" clearance at an intersection on 24L while the USAir 737 was given clearance to land on 24L. Consistent with Skywest operating procedures, the Metro did not turn on its strobes until given takeoff clearance and since TIPH isn't takeoff clearance, their strobes were off. The Metro's beacon was on, but is obstructed directly behind the aircraft (it's on the front of the vert stab). The 737 crew didn't see the metro's nav lights and hit it just after the nosewheel came down.

TODR
Click to expand...

Doug,

Spot on. That's the accident I was also referring to. I was flying for another commuter back then, based at LAX, and it was ugly. I think many operators added "strobes-on" for taking the runway after that. The metro was hard to see from behind, and many aircraft are. I think RV's would fall into that category. Whether at a towered airport or not, putting on the strobes when taking the runway will hopefully get you seen. The courtesy part of it comes in just waiting till you are not next to another airplane. The whole idea behind most OPS Manuals, with respect to this, is to sillouette, or make conspicuous, your airplane, so others may see and avoid. For the OP's original theme, I do think we can do it courteously, and still enhance our safety!

Now for the FAR/AIM piece:

dmaib said:
Not regulatory, but AIM 4-3-23 spells out aircraft lighting best practices. Paragraph D specifically addresses rotating/flashing beacons for large and small aircraft.
Click to expand...

I think that section is consistent with 91.205 and .209 (and it references .209). It was sorta hard to find, so I pasted it below, just in case anyone wants to read it. It discusses position lights on sunset to sunrise, and says that those with strobes are required to operate them during all operations, day or night (unless they constitute a safety hazard during adverse meterological conditions). It also says they should be turned off on the ground if they adversely affect ground personnel or other pilots.

So it would seem the Cirrus POH complies with that too. Bottom line appears to be to use them, with the "unless" caveats built in. That gives us the room to be safe, yet courteous.

Here's the AIM paste...makes it another long post (sorry again!)

Cheers,
Bob


4-3-23. Use of Aircraft Lights

a. Aircraft position lights are required to be lighted on aircraft operated on the surface and in flight from sunset to sunrise. In addition, aircraft equipped with an anti-collision light system are required to operate that light system during all types of operations (day and night). However, during any adverse meteorological conditions, the pilot-in-command may determine that the anti-collision lights should be turned off when their light output would constitute a hazard to safety (14 CFR Section 91.209). Supplementary strobe lights should be turned off on the ground when they adversely affect ground personnel or other pilots, and in flight when there are adverse reflection from clouds.

b. An aircraft anti-collision light system can use one or more rotating beacons and/or strobe lights, be colored either red or white, and have different (higher than minimum) intensities when compared to other aircraft. Many aircraft have both a rotating beacon and a strobe light system.

c. The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program, Operation Lights On, to enhance the see-and-avoid concept. Pilots are encouraged to turn on their landing lights during takeoff; i.e., either after takeoff clearance has been received or when beginning takeoff roll. Pilots are further encouraged to turn on their landing lights when operating below 10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating within 10 miles of any airport, or in conditions of reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds may be expected, i.e., coastal areas, lake areas, around refuse dumps, etc. Although turning on aircraft lights does enhance the see-and-avoid concept, pilots should not become complacent about keeping a sharp lookout for other aircraft. Not all aircraft are equipped with lights and some pilots may not have their lights turned on. Aircraft manufacturer's recommendations for operation of landing lights and electrical systems should be observed.

d. Prop and jet blast forces generated by large aircraft have overturned or damaged several smaller aircraft taxiing behind them. To avoid similar results, and in the interest of preventing upsets and injuries to ground personnel from such forces, the FAA recommends that air carriers and commercial operators turn on their rotating beacons anytime their aircraft engines are in operation. General aviation pilots using rotating beacon equipped aircraft are also encouraged to participate in this program which is designed to alert others to the potential hazard. Since this is a voluntary program, exercise caution and do not rely solely on the rotating beacon as an indication that aircraft engines are in operation.

e. At the discretion of the pilot-in-command turn on all external illumination, including landing lights, when taxiing on, across, or holding in position on any runway. This increases the conspicuity of the aircraft to controllers and other pilots approaching to land, taxiing, or crossing the runway. Pilots should comply with any equipment operating limitations and consider the effects of landing and strobe lights on other aircraft in their vicinity. When cleared for takeoff pilots should turn on any remaining exterior lights.
 
As Author of This Thread

a lot of interesting facts have been presented, and some points mentionedthat I have to ponder on.

My hangar is situated right next to the numbers on runway 14 here at EWB, so as the weather turns warmer (?), like a moth to a light, I have to watch every take-off. We have a lot of small corporate jets using this field. While I am not an Airline person, I am an ATP, and I've tried to emulate their take-off procedures which is similar to what I mentioned in my original post.

From my own personal point of view, I have to think about taxiing during daylight with the strobes on. At obvious times of the day, it should not be a problem, but close to sunrise, and sunset times, we start splitting hairs, so I think I'll opt to leave them off. However, there was a good point mentioned about turning them on when cleared to the runway. This I will start doing.

As for engine start with beacon or strobes on, I still have to prefer the loud "clear prop", followed by a good visual check, before hitting the start switch.
Just looked at my log, and it shows I've done 5699 landings, and very few touch and go's. Considering that a lot of those landings were multi-engine, I must have done well over 6000 engine starts in all different ramp environments, and to my knowledge never came close to doing any bodily harm using the shout and good visual procedure.
Beacons and strobes are fine, but it will not replace a good visual check, and pilot awareness that we have been trained to exercise.

Thank you for your replies and comments. Please keep them coming
Jack
Actually got to fly the 9A todaybefore the next snow arrives tomorrow!!
 
Everyone is different

I turn on my strobes, yell clear, and then hit the starter. Once the engine starts on goes the position, taxi, and landing lights. The taxi and landing lights stay on until clear of the ATA.

The strobes will get turned off on those few occasions when I fly in formation with someone.

At night these procedures will change based on the airport.

On a loud ramp, strobes/beacon may be the only outward sign you are about to start the engine.

There was that Starduster II at SnF that had an ahooga horn. He yelled "CLEAR", hit the horn, and then hit the starter. That horn sure got people's attention!
 
Here is my delema. I have no taxi lights, no landing lights. I have strobes, I have possision lights. Now, with that said, I love the strobes for landing, just off the runway I see everything. When I taxi, it's nice to have the strobes on. Now, I have two settings for the strobes, I have a low and a high. If I elect to use high, the whole area shines. Generally when taxi, I use the low setting. But if I see anybody in my path, I'll switch on the high strobes. Really gets there attention. When I start my engine at night, you got it, I turn those strobes right on. Safety is no. 1. No I will not put on a taxi light or landing light. No need, I got strobes.
 
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