W

wjnmd

Well Known Member
I am in the process of converting my steam gauges to all glass (Garmin GDU 370 & 375, GTN 650, GX Pilot AP, GTX 23 transponder) and would like to get some consensus regarding the transition process. I should also say that I plan to start my instrument training shortly after my panel is in. I am thinking that some time initially in something like a C-172 with a G1000 will serve the purpose of starting my training with an instructor and help me accustomed to a glass panel. How many hours roughly should I plan for familiarization with my new panel after flying behind a G1000? Does anybody have any other recommendations and/or cautions? Should I transition first and then start my IFR training?
 
Transition

I found it very easy to move from steam to a g1000. I got my IFR behind all steam and transitioned to the g1000 with a few hours of sim time. I think the key is to not try and learn everything at once. Learn one thing, become proficient then move on. The glass cockpits offer some much with all the options they offer it will make your head spin if you try and do it all at once.

John


wjnmd said:
I am in the process of converting my steam gauges to all glass (Garmin GDU 370 & 375, GTN 650, GX Pilot AP, GTX 23 transponder) and would like to get some consensus regarding the transition process. I should also say that I plan to start my instrument training shortly after my panel is in. I am thinking that some time initially in something like a C-172 with a G1000 will serve the purpose of starting my training with an instructor and help me accustomed to a glass panel. How many hours roughly should I plan for familiarization with my new panel after flying behind a G1000? Does anybody have any other recommendations and/or cautions? Should I transition first and then start my IFR training?
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Hi Bill

We just went through this same training this morning, in my -10. I have a friend who's retired Navy, old A-6 pilot and is checking out in my -10.

He told me that what I have is waaay far more advanced than what he flew and even tho' my D-100/D-120 is old stuff now, he loves it and all the information it provides, so we sat in the cockpit for an hour and a half, with the battery minder connected.

That way, we could turn all the avionics on, including the 430 and with the training manual for the 'glass and also the 430, it was a pretty straight forward learning curve and without the demands of flying, went through all the screen combinations and VOR/GPS approach configurations as well.

This, after he studied the D-100 manual at home. We used all the buttons and discussed their various functions to his satisfaction, until he came away reasonably confident of his ability to use them well, but we'll do more.

I'd recommend a similar approach for anyone else transitioning to glass....add a battery minder and sit in the hangar.

Best,
 
Take a look at.

Paul Dye advised me about the guide the FAA has.

Lots of info there, will give you hours of reading:rolleyes:

Sorry, I do not have the link anymore, but it is available as a PDF.

Google it......

FAA H 8083-6 Handbook.
 
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IMHO there is no simple answer to this question.

Not all pilots are the same ie: age experience, exposure to video representations of data, etc.

Not all EFIS's are created equal

It took me a lot of hours to get used to and comfortable flying behind an EFIS after 40 years of steam guages. It only took my son a few hours.

There is a huge gulf between using a relatively simple EFIS such as a Tru Trak and a very complex EFIS like a Dynon Skyview or Garmin G3X.

Ater several hundred hours behind a Blue Mountain I installed a G3X in my plane and 40 hrs later hadn't even scratched the surface of how to access all of it's information and features much less use it to it's fullest.

I think the answer to your question depends on your background, your predisposition and experience in using the graphic presentation and the complexity of the particular EFIS you select.
 
N395V said:
IMHO there is no simple answer to this question.

Not all pilots are the same ie: age experience, exposure to video representations of data, etc.

Not all EFIS's are created equal

It took me a lot of hours to get used to and comfortable flying behind an EFIS after 40 years of steam guages. It only took my son a few hours.

There is a huge gulf between using a relatively simple EFIS such as a Tru Trak and a very complex EFIS like a Dynon Skyview or Garmin G3X.

Ater several hundred hours behind a Blue Mountain I installed a G3X in my plane and 40 hrs later hadn't even scratched the surface of how to access all of it's information and features much less use it to it's fullest.

I think the answer to your question depends on your background, your predisposition and experience in using the graphic presentation and the complexity of the particular EFIS you select.
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Milt, you hit a home run with bases loaded on this one.

After a year of flying the 10, I still refer to the ROC, Altimeter, and Airspeed on my steam gauges as a natural reaction, the EFIS info is something I have to force myself to look at.

Luckily I have both in the panel:rolleyes:
 
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It's a good idea to cover up any steam backups you might have. The transition will be much quicker if you avoid them. Generally speaking glass is pretty easy to transition to. I doubt you will have any trouble. Try avoid staring to long. That's a common error.
 
apkp777 said:
It's a good idea to cover up any steam backups you might have. The transition will be much quicker if you avoid them.
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Tony, I have thought about doing that, cover one at a time until I get used to the EFIS for that function, than add another etc.

All part of what Milt was talking about being a 40 year pilot, and not a video gamer.
 
Here is how I normally have the panel configured for cross country flight, as can be seen, one EFIS is used for engine monitoring, and the other EFIS is used as a map/heading device.

It is nice to have the steam gauges still providing the airspeed, altitude and ROC in this case. I do not need to flip/flop the left EFIS to get back to flight instruments.

DSC06106.jpg
 
Bill, it appears you live in Florida. We (Dynon) are hosting a hands-on training class at Sebring Expo in January. This is the first of many we hope to do at major shows in the future. It is a SkyView hands-on class, but generically it will help anyone make the transition to glass regardless of the brand. Kirk Kleinholz- a CFII - is teaching the class.

If you are interested follow this link. http://dynonavionics.com/docs/news_version_Training_05Dec2011.html It explains the class, and has a link to sign up.

This classes are mostly full, but there are still a few slots left.

-Robert
Dynon Marketing
 
Mike S said:
Tony, I have thought about doing that, cover one at a time until I get used to the EFIS for that function, than add another etc.

All part of what Milt was talking about being a 40 year pilot, and not a video gamer.
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I don't have any steam, but I miss it. Personally I don't really care for the EFIS presentation. AFS has the best of both worlds, EFIS with a steam presentation. I have flown with that and really liked it. Your combination of steam and glass works well I bet. I have posted recently on backups for my EFIS and am planning on adding steam rather than another glass BU. I may use my steam for primary reference and use my Dynon for mapping/EMS, just like what appears you are doing.

I am not sure when transitioning to glass that it has to be all or nothing. Perhaps the subject of another thread.
 
I flew Phase 1 of a 7A with a Skyview. I spent time just sitting a learning what is where. My plan was to not worry about changing screens in flight. Eventually I did a bit when I calibrated the compass functionality.

The one thing that I noticed is that my scan/recognition of airspeed in the pattern was degraded compared to a steam gauge. Occasionally I would get slower than normal. Nowhere close to a stall but it was something that I had to consciously pay more attention to than my steam airspeed gauge.

As mentioned, do not get mesmerized by the pretty colors. Absorb the info you need then eyes back outside.
 
After 4 or 5 hours behind the SkyView flying (and 10 or so hanger flying it) I feel like I am moving up the learning curve.

I am ignoring the backup ALT and ASI and working on keeping my head out of the cockpit and glancing at the EFIS to check speed, alt and heading. I use bugs on all three and that helps a lot because I don't have to read and interpret a number, i only have to check position of the bug. I think of it as the equivalent of glancing at a DG or ASI or ALT to check the position of the needles.

Yesterday I did a lot of steep turns and would check the horizon then check the AI on the EFIS to get my brain to start picturing the horizon when I look at the AI.

I've never flown behind glass before, and I've been flying since 1985 and 1300 hrs including instrument rating but so far I am pleased with my progress. I would recommend making yourself fly on the glass in VMC now so if one of the remaining round instruments fail when you are MVFR you will be competent if not comfortable.
 
Hands-on training

Thanks, Robert

I'll check my call schedule and see if I can make it. I also appreciate everybody's input. Garmin has a training disc for the GTN 650 that I've played with already and have a good head start with it I feel. I also am replacing my old 696 with my new G3X panel so hopefully there will be some crossover even though there are no flight and engine instruments on the 696. It does help to get me used to the hard- and soft keys.

DFlyer said:
Bill, it appears you live in Florida. We (Dynon) are hosting a hands-on training class at Sebring Expo in January. This is the first of many we hope to do at major shows in the future. It is a SkyView hands-on class, but generically it will help anyone make the transition to glass regardless of the brand. Kirk Kleinholz- a CFII - is teaching the class.

If you are interested follow this link. http://dynonavionics.com/docs/news_version_Training_05Dec2011.html It explains the class, and has a link to sign up.

This classes are mostly full, but there are still a few slots left.

-Robert
Dynon Marketing
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After 5.8 Chelton, 1.0 AFS and 15.0 GRT glass...

I might know 10% of what I feel I should know to start IFR training. I love my grt efis. I am spoiled. There is so much information available.

I started off by reading everything several times. Hanger flew it for 40-50 hours. Presently, I have no audio warnings connected to grt as I did not want the distractions. They can be connected easily. I do have audio warnings from G496 connected turned to "6" volume. I initially set efis limits lower/higher to start and have adjusted as needed.

On my first flight I concentrated on just what I absolutely needed to be safe. After about 8 hours into phase 1, I turned the ap on. This relieves the workload tremendously. It is like having a copilot. I get flight following for added safety and fly during the week as much as possible when there is less traffic. As time goes by I go back and re-read, then try new things in flight.

Finding that emergency 1600' private grass strip has never been easier. Knowing the fuel remaining, wind vector, glide range, xm wx is just great. All I need now is paint and ads-b.
 
wjnmd said:
...snip> Does anybody have any other recommendations and/or cautions? Should I transition first and then start my IFR training?
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Bill,

What Milt said is very true, and you are putting in a very nice, and pretty high-end panel. Now it's easy to sit in the office chair and tell ya how to spend your $$, but I'd spend some good time getting to know your new panel in the air before starting the IFR training. The book and hangar sessions to get you warmed up (as others said), then local and X-C flights to get to know the buttonology you'll actually use in flight in various scenarios. Maybe even take an Instrument Rated partner along later in that phase to plug in a few approaches and play with that part of the EFIS (all in VMC, and the safety pilot just helps keep you from too much heads-down time and info overload). My thought is that you buy several $100 burgers getting to know the gear, before you start shelling out for an instructor and going under the hood for the sweaty-back sessions. ;)

FWIW, at work we've gone from a 737-200 (old steam) to the -300 (newer steam) to a -700 (with what the industry called "dumbed down glass"...glass with steam-looking displays in them...that's not a jab at the earlier poster that talked about similar), to a full-up PFD/ND (Primary Flight Display/Navigation Display). It might make you chuckle to know that the transition was probably easiest for those that had flown glass before, whether that be in a fancy corporate machine, or for some...in a small GA airplane, like an RV! :) I doubt you'd now find too many that would opt for steam over glass at work now...some exist, but the SA advantage is so great, its amazing. That's once you get used to it, of course.

You'll love it!


Mike S said:
Tony, I have thought about doing that, cover one at a time until I get used to the EFIS for that function, than add another etc.

All part of what Milt was talking about being a 40 year pilot, and not a video gamer.
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Mike, I might know a guy that would love breaks from winter mods, who would be happy to ride as a safety pilot for "EFIS trust and familiarity" hops. You bring the steam covers, I'll buy the burgers! It'll be a snap!

How far apart do we live...oh yeah, 78.4 nm, but who's counting. Did I mention I haven't been in a 10 yet (is that gratuitous enough! :p)

Cheers,
Bob
 
rvmills said:
Mike, I might know a guy that would love breaks from winter mods, who would be happy to ride as a safety pilot for "EFIS trust and familiarity" hops. You bring the steam covers, I'll buy the burgers! It'll be a snap!

How far apart do we live...oh yeah, 78.4 nm, but who's counting. Did I mention I haven't been in a 10 yet (is that gratuitous enough! :p)

Cheers,
Bob
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Well now, sounds like a good deal to me:D

The plane is down now for its "annual", and to upgrade the radio stack, gotta have a SL 30 to make the IFR minimum equipment list.

Will get in touch with you next year.......
 
Mike S said:
... to upgrade the radio stack, gotta have a SL 30 to make the IFR minimum equipment list.
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Don't think so....

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...d97fa35a1232a3988625768f005c12de!OpenDocument
 
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Well guys, I am just repeating what I have been told.

I have no idea what the rules say about IFR equipment, nor do I have the IFR ticket, as you can probably tell.

I was talking to Stein a while back, and he suggested that I add the SL 30 to make my plane legal. Perhaps I misunderstood what he was talking about---no, forget perhaps, more than likely is more like it.:eek:

Keep in mind, my intent is to get my IFR training in this plane also.

O.K., comments welcome :D
 
MauiLvrs said:
Don't think so....

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...d97fa35a1232a3988625768f005c12de!OpenDocument
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..which means for all practical purposes a Nav/Comm or a certified GPS, of which anything lower than a WAAS approach certified unit does Mike no good for IFR traiing.

So in his case, indeed an SL30 is the minimum that'd make him (and most) legal.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Back on topic....I have worked with "glass" from some of the earliest incarnations, and as a guy who grew up in a J-3, I have had to train up all the way. One thing that people neglect to think about is what they actually mean by "learning glass". If all you've ever flown is a steam gauge Piper with standard VHF Navcomms, I divide the learning process into three parts: Book learning the fundamentals of a technically Advanced Aircraft, Learning to read and interpret "glass" gauges, and then learning how to operate a particular integrated system (EFIS, NAV Box, autopilot, Comm, etc). The first you can do with the FAA Handbook Mike S. mentioned - excellent. The second....well believe it or not if you get one of the later versions of MS Flight Simulator and go driving around the sky in a late-model airplane with an EFIS, you'll learn to use the stuff pretty quick for less than an hour's worth of AvGas. Oh - if you have a 430W, Garmin has a great PC simulator that will save you a ton more Avgas!

The last portion - learning your particular EFIS/Nav Box/Comm/Autopilot/Etc is what most of the posts here relate to. Learning the stuff on the ground with external power is a great way to learn the EFIS - punch all the buttons and try all the menus. Then go fly with a safety pilot (at least), or someone experienced with the system (better). But....if you neglect the first two steps, you are going to be logging many, many hours at 8- 10 gph of Avgas, and might not ever get comfortable. Going from steam to complex (IFR) glass in one fell swoop is a heck of a big chunk to bite off. If you do the ground learning up front, the transition will go a lot quicker in the air!

Paul
 
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Just finished flying a couple of practice ILSs this afternoon. I've got about 65 hrs on the new bird with the older GRT WS screens driven by a 430W. As posters have already said, I too used the back up steam gages by habit for much of the early hrs. I'm still weaning myself. IFR practice is helping.

My first outing, just like Paul mentioned, showed that I had not conquered the book learning and integration. Had to go back and read again to discover what I was doing wrong.

Today was my third outing with a safety pilot and I am finally starting to "get it". Honestly, I was having trouble with the "scan" of the efis and loosing control of the approaches because of it (added to the pitch sensitivity of an RV). The information display is so different than steam and in some ways it is an overload that I am having trouble deciphering without concerted effort.

My current (repeat current) opinion is that I don't like the small size of the vertical speed bar on the WS screen. I think the newer high res screens show this larger and also with an angled leading edge that may be easier to interpret at a glance.

This excercise makes me realize that my brain is analog. When flying steam, needle position at a glance (not numerical value) was what helped me fly.

Please understand this is not a complaint about GRT, old screen or not. It's more about me. I'm quite sure that as I get used to REALLY flying the glass, it will become second nature. It has just been a surprise to me how hard it is to make the conversion.

SO...I do think today was a big step improvement (since the previous outings did not produce a legal approach) and I have my fingers crossed that the approach accuracy will quickly get back to being on the rails I expected on steam.
 
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Learned a few things recently

As I said in another post, I passed IFR IPC recently. Even so, I was still not happy with my performance while using the GRT WS H1.

Our holiday plans were a wash so Diane decided to work (nurse) and that let me putter in the hangar for 3 days. I had a snag list. Mostly interior work but it included some GRT setting adjustments to get rid of niusance alarms and blocking the oil cooler for cold weather.

It seems like every time I look in the GRT manual, I learn something. This time, I found the RPM setting that suppresses a few engine alarms until you are passed that RPM. Also found the nav mode selection "internal/external". I had mine set internal. I changed it to external so that the GRT nav mode is controlled by the OBS switch on the 430.

I added tape to the oil cooler and went flying.

On the way back to the airport I decided to shoot an ILS just to see if the nav mode setting change would make things more automatic. It did. I did not have to touch the GRT at all. The procedure in the 430 ran everything. GPS to the IAF and then both instruments flipped loc/gs automatically and the needles popped up.

OK, here is really what I wanted to talk about. I have the flight path indicator turned on. It shows where you are going, including wind and all. Thats fine. When I fly VFR, I don't look at it in the pattern. This time, flying an approach with no foggles, with a considerable breeze, it became obvious how to use the flight path indicator. I stuck it on the end of the runway shown in the terrain image. The ILS/GS needles stayed locked in the center. On rails. :cool:

I guess I had not done a non foggle approach with crosswind because I previously thought I needed to put the flight path indicator in the needle crosshairs. I think that was why I was "chasing" so badly on previous approaches in the wind (with foggles)

Anyway, it was nice to learn something. I see I need to block off more oil cooler. Its cold, and the oil barely topped 140F
 
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Bill, glad to hear you are making progress. I can sympathize with you situation, because I'm a few months behind you experiencing the same thing.

When I did my transition training, I had a very difficult time adjusting because I couldn't quickly locate the data I was seeking. By the time I found it and looked back up, I was off course and/or speed. The band aid was to use the EFIS six pack display. That solved the immediate familiarity problem.

I'm due for my IPC as well, plus flight testing. One the first flight, I plan on keeping one EFIS (I have dual EFIS on the left) in the six pack mode. Then I'll start the transition to a traditionally EFIS display after I'm finished initial flight testing. Once the 40 hours are up, then bring a safety pilot that is familiar with my avionics and start learning new process with the new avionics in prep for my IPC.

I don't think it's going to be too difficult to transition, but it is going to take plenty of time and practice to fully make the transition. Fortunately, for all of us, it's a hobby we don't mind spending extra time doing.
 
This has been a real education year for me. After 30 years of VFR flight I finally went to IFR. The first thing I found out was how I had wasted my money on a Garmin 430W up to this point. Basically I just used the direct to button and in that situation my 496 handheld is a better choice. I read the 430 manual many times and just could not get my head around how to use the unit properly. Someone suggested Max Trescott's GPS and WAAS handbook and that was a wonderful purchase. The information is logical and uses some real world situations on how to use the equipment. Now I am twisting knobs with confidence and the 430 is really quite amazing when you understand how it is organized. Having said that if you or your airplane is not IFR it is basically a heavy waste of money.

On the way back to the airport I decided to shoot an ILS just to see if the nav mode setting change would make things more automatic. It did. I did not have to touch the GRT at all. The procedure in the 430 ran everything. GPS to the IAF and then both instruments flipped loc/gs automatically and the needles popped up.

Does anyone know if the AFS 4500 system can be set up this way? It would be nice to remove one step from the system.

It has taken me quite a while to make the transition from analog to glass. When you look at an altimeter and the needle is off 100 feet it "looks" like a lot. On the tape feature of an EFFIS it just not seem like 100 feet is that out of place. Perhaps having an adjustable red colour on the tape might get my attention better. I have tried the artificial six pack and it just did not work for me. Everyone is different.
 
Tom Martin said:
On the way back to the airport I decided to shoot an ILS just to see if the nav mode setting change would make things more automatic. It did. I did not have to touch the GRT at all. The procedure in the 430 ran everything. GPS to the IAF and then both instruments flipped loc/gs automatically and the needles popped up.

Does anyone know if the AFS 4500 system can be set up this way? It would be nice to remove one step from the .
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Yes, it is possible on the 4500. You didn't mention what ap you have. The af-pilot version of the Trutrak ap, there is even fewer button pushes. That's a benefit of the custom software interface that Trutrak did for both AFS and Garmin.

I have a pair of 4500s and a 3400, along with a af-pilot
 
rleffler said:
When I did my transition training, I had a very difficult time adjusting because I couldn't quickly locate the data I was seeking. By the time I found it and looked back up, I was off course and/or speed. The band aid was to use the EFIS six pack display.

.... it is going to take plenty of time and practice to fully make the transition. Fortunately, for all of us, it's a hobby we don't mind spending extra time doing.
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Wow, can I identify with that! My transition training was as important - maybe more - for the adjustment to glass as it was the flying characteristics of an RV. The first two flights I was w-a-y behind the airplane because I couldn't find key numbers in the myriad of data displayed on the Dynon. It was there and clear... I just couldn't find it quickly. After I started flying my RV it took another 3 to 5 hrs to learn how to use my GRT. And yes, every time I read the GRT manual, I learn something else helpful and handy.
 
Mike S said:
Here is how I normally have the panel configured for cross country flight, as can be seen, one EFIS is used for engine monitoring, and the other EFIS is used as a map/heading device.

DSC06106.jpg
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Mike, I couldn't help noticing in your posted photo above that you do not seem to have any protection along the edge of your glare shield. It makes me shudder to think what might happen to you if your face came into contact with that sharp edge in the event of an accident.
 
wjnmd said:
I am in the process of converting my steam gauges to all glass (Garmin GDU 370 & 375, GTN 650, GX Pilot AP, GTX 23 transponder) and would like to get some consensus regarding the transition process. I should also say that I plan to start my instrument training shortly after my panel is in. I am thinking that some time initially in something like a C-172 with a G1000 will serve the purpose of starting my training with an instructor and help me accustomed to a glass panel. How many hours roughly should I plan for familiarization with my new panel after flying behind a G1000? Does anybody have any other recommendations and/or cautions? Should I transition first and then start my IFR training?
Click to expand...

I transitioned from the standard 6 pack in a C172 to an all glass C162 and was familiar with it's basic operation by top of climb and comfortable with it after an hours use, but I had no option, none of that pesky steam stuff to confuse me. I also put in a couple of hours on FS9 with a C162 add on and found it very useful for familiarisation.

I'm not that keen on flying a standard 6 pack anymore, but will do so under duress :D
 
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