[Bavafa]

For those who have tried & practice this maneuver, just wondering how does a RV behave as compared to a Cessna?

I have never done an actual full spin, only what we learn during private training. Yesterday I went with a friend in his C152 and did a couple of spins. I was very surprised as how much and how quick we dropped only in one and half turn before recovering. The spin was also faster then I had imagined but recovery seemed very gentle and easy? opposite rudder would stop it promptly. So, I wonder how a RV would behave?

 

[Russ McCutcheon]

In my -4 ?SOLO ONLY? Its just like the 150/152, does not require any positive recovery inputs, just release the pressure on the controls and it stops spinning immediately, there a lot of fun, but be careful.

 

[frankh]

Spins

Yes it does spin, very well..it will spin inverted too.

Its been a long while since I spun a Cessna but the RV spins very readily but the rudder will stop it propmtly..In fact if your not quick it will spin it the other way.

It won't spin as fast as say a pitts but it is quite capabable of surprising of surprising the average spam can driver

Now of course here all the health warnings..If you have not been trained in spin recoveries then PLEASE get trained..At the very least fly with someone who has spun their RV regularly.

Here is a link to a little 5.5 turn spin I did so you get the idea

http://www.youtube.com/user/frankandmarci#p/u/5/TQIZQ2yti1Y

I did try to spin it inverted after the initial upright spin but as you can see it wouldn't...Later I Put a heavy passenger in there and fell off the back of a hammerhead...Yeah lets say the inverted spin that followed was "enlightening"..:

Frank

 

[skylor]

RV-8 Spins

I've done up to 5 turn spins in each direction in my -8, solo. I've never done a spin in a Cessna but I have done them in Decathalon's.

The -8 is well behaved and similar to the Decathalon, but -8 at solo weight does seem to recover a little easier. Spins to the right will stop rotation as soon as opposite rudder is kicked in, even with the stick full back. The spin recover technique I use is: 1. apply opposite rudder 2. Break the stall by moving the stick to neutral to slightly forward of neutral 3. When the spin stops, center the rudder and pull out of the dive. Obviously, 1 and 2 are done concurrently in the case of incipient stage unintentional spin. Spins to the left don't stop with opposite rudder alone.

The -8 seems to spin at approximately the same rate as the Decathalon, maybe just a touch faster. It spins in a noticeable more nose-low attitude than the Decathalon does, and altitude loss in mine was approximately 400-500' per revolution (including the recovery). One thing of particular note: In my -8, at the end of the first 1/2 revolution you will actually be slightly inverted. If you attempt recovery at this point, you have an eyefull of ground and a somewhat aggressive pull-out is warranted to keep your speed in check. The pitch oscillations (hobby-horsing) stabilize after 1 full revolution.

Skylor

 

[Captain Avgas]

. Spins to the left don't stop with opposite rudder alone.

Skylor

Would you care to elaborate on this. Exactly what recovery inputs do you find are required in a left spin in your RV8.

Incidentally, my #1 input in a spin is always to cut the throttle. A power-on spin will tend to flatten out. A flat spin in some aircraft can be extremely dangerous because rudder authority may be diminished to the point where the spin can become unrecoverable.

My personal opinion is that anybody wishing to do spins in their RV (or in any aircraft for that matter) would be wise to do an aerobatic endorsement first.

 

[sandifer]

Would you care to elaborate on this. Exactly what recovery inputs do you find are required in a left spin in your RV8.

I think he's saying that he needs to bring the stick off the aft stop in addition to rudder. Under two turns, my RV-3 would stop within a quarter turn with rudder only, without even bothering to bring the stick forward. It was just interesting to note this, not that it's proper technique.

Incidentally, my #1 input in a spin is always to cut the throttle. A power-on spin will tend to flatten out. A flat spin in some aircraft can be extremely dangerous because rudder authority may be diminished to the point where the spin can become unrecoverable.

Yes, always cut the power first. In most airplanes that are commonly spun, power will only flatten the spin if you're spinning to the left. There's a reason you will never see an airshow pilot do a flat spin to the right (as observed from the ground)...it's not possible. In a spin to the right, propellor gyroscopics pull the nose down. Actually comes in handy sometimes in competition aerobatics to stop a right spin and get your vertical downline set by bringing in power.

My personal opinion is that anybody wishing to do spins in their RV (or in any aircraft for that matter) would be wise to do an aerobatic endorsement first.

There is no aerobatic endorsement, and aerobatic training alone won't help you much with spins unless you specifically make that a part of it. Aerobatics training has its own merits, but if you want to do spins on your own, get spin specific training first...and preferably not from a CFI whose only experience with spins is the few plain vanilla upright spins done for their CFI endorsement. It's best to get spin training from an experienced and qualified aerobatics instructor in an aerobatic airplane.

 

[DanH]

I think he's saying that he needs to bring the stick off the aft stop in addition to rudder. Under two turns, my RV-3 would stop within a quarter turn with rudder only, without even bothering to bring the stick forward. It was just interesting to note this, not that it's proper technique.

Best technique varies depending on the airplane. For example, the most prompt recovery in a classic J-3 requires you maintain full stick rearward until rotation stops, and only then release back pressure. Failure to do so, in particular with rearward CG, can extend the recovery of a fully developed spin as much as 3 more turns.....and make you very nervous

 

[sandifer]

Best technique varies depending on the airplane. For example, the most prompt recovery in a classic J-3 requires you maintain full stick rearward until rotation stops, and only then release back pressure. Failure to do so, in particular with rearward CG, can extend the recovery of a fully developed spin as much as 3 more turns.....and make you very nervous

I fly a J-3 on a regular basis and kinda hear what your'e saying. When I first started flying it, I was very surprised at how fast a fully-developed spin would stop...it's pretty much immediately upon applying opposite rudder. Stops so fast it doesn't even give you a chance to get the stick forward, unless for some reason you brought it forward concurrently with opposite rudder. But that's bad technique in any airplane, since it's a good way to acclerate the spin rather than stop it right away. Haven't tried messing with the stick while it's still spinning, but I bet it would accelerate nicely. I'll have to play with it this weekend.

 

[N941WR]

...My personal opinion is that anybody wishing to do spins in their RV (or in any aircraft for that matter) would be wise to do an aerobatic endorsement first.

What is an "aerobatic endorsement"? I have never heard of such a thing.

 

[Toobuilder]

...unless for some reason you brought it forward concurrently with opposite rudder. But that's bad technique in any airplane, since it's a good way to acclerate the spin rather than stop it right away...

Do you mean bring it (stick) "forward" from the aft position, or "forward" from neutral? Because bringing the stick forward (to neutral) is done concurrently with rudder input in many airplanes. And BTW, full opposite rudder may work in some, but certainly not all airplanes. When doing my first spins in the Hiperbipe, full opposite rudder caused an immediate outside snap and reversal in spin direction. Very disorienting, to say the least. Best recovery I have found is rudder and elevator to neutral - spin stops in a quarter turn.

I think each aircraft has it's own "best" recovery, and what works in one could make another go very wrong.

 

[uk_figs]

Beggs recovery?

I seem to remember way back when that a person called Gene Beggs(sp?) did a lot of work on spin recovery and came up with:
Power off
Let go of stick/wheel
Push heavy rudder to stop rotation
Fly out of spin condition
This was supposed to work with most planes and prevented you from aggravating the spin condition inadvertently by holding the stick in other than the neutral position.
Is this still a good technique as I always remembered this as something to keep in mind if you got into a spin.

 

[sandifer]

Do you mean bring it (stick) "forward" from the aft position, or "forward" from neutral? Because bringing the stick forward (to neutral) is done concurrently with rudder input in many airplanes.

Instead of "bad" technique, I should have put it differently. I mean I'm making a general recommendation not to move the stick forward until you have in opposite rudder...and not past neutral. Yes, there are different techniques that work in different airplanes. However, in an emergency, knowing nothing further about how an airplane responds, sequential inputs are generally regarded as the way to go. Like reknowned spin instructor Rich Stowell teaches - sequential power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, and stick forward (this is the gray area, assumed to be whatever it takes, generally not past neutral).

And BTW, full opposite rudder may work in some, but certainly not all airplanes. When doing my first spins in the Hiperbipe, full opposite rudder caused an immediate outside snap and reversal in spin direction.

Are you saying that if you are in a normal power-off developed spin with full aft stick, that if you apply FULL opposite rudder, leaving the stick back, that the airplane will IMMEDIATELY reverse spin direction? Are you saying that you can only use partial rudder? If this is truly the case, you have to admit this is very unusual, even among aerobatic aircraft, and not representative of 99% of airplanes out there. A crossover spin is different, and can happen easily with many airplanes, but that requires hamfistedly moving the stick far enough forward to cause the airplane to transition from an upright spin to an inverted one. Or waiting too late to remove the opposite rudder after the spin has stopped is a different issue as well.

Best recovery I have found is rudder and elevator to neutral - spin stops in a quarter turn.

That's pretty much the emergency recovery technique Bill Finagin teaches in the Pitts - power off and everything visually to neutral. Will stop any type of spin every time in a Pitts, but not guaranteed for all aircraft. Not necessarily the technique you'd use in competition, but very good if you're disoriented regarding direction and whether you're upright or inverted.

I seem to remember way back when that a person called Gene Beggs(sp?) did a lot of work on spin recovery and came up with:
Power off
Let go of stick/wheel
Push heavy rudder to stop rotation
Fly out of spin condition
This was supposed to work with most planes and prevented you from aggravating the spin condition inadvertently by holding the stick in other than the neutral position.
Is this still a good technique as I always remembered this as something to keep in mind if you got into a spin.

In his book, Gene Beggs mentions several aircraft types that will not recover during specific spin modes using this technique. Point is, each individual aircraft type would require extensive spin testing to make any guarantees about a specific recovery method.

 

[Toobuilder]

...Are you saying that if you are in a normal power-off developed spin with full aft stick, that if you apply FULL opposite rudder, leaving the stick back, that the airplane will IMMEDIATELY reverse spin direction? Are you saying that you can only use partial rudder? If this is truly the case, you have to admit this is very unusual, even among aerobatic aircraft, and not representative of 99% of airplanes out there. A crossover spin is different, and can happen easily with many airplanes, but that requires hamfistedly moving the stick far enough forward to cause the airplane to transition from an upright spin to an inverted one. Or waiting too late to remove the opposite rudder after the spin has stopped is a different issue as well...

Well, I've only done that once, and since I was not expecting that reaction, it may have been slower than "immediate" - but it did happen in the blink of an eye. I can try it again from a more experienced perspective and try break the behavior down into discrete elements, but I am sure that stomping on the oppsite rudder and "waiting" for the chance to recover does not work unless you are very ready for it (in this airplane anyway). There is no slowing, then stop of rotation from one direction to the next. It is as subtle as a snap roll. Also, in the transition from one direction to the next (elevator fully aft - rudder reversal only), the airplane does go significantly negative G for a moment. My head (along with my water bottle and cell phone) hit the roof with substantial force.

 

[Dmadd]

I would not spin my "four" with anyone in the back, out of respect for the CG. (on paper it should be fine, but...well... you know... :-/ )
My question is this. Does the RV-8, with it's more forward CG tendencies, do better with a passenger? Weight in that fwd baggage bay should help... no?


Dennis

 

[David-aviator]

Do you mean bring it (stick) "forward" from the aft position, or "forward" from neutral? Because bringing the stick forward (to neutral) is done concurrently with rudder input in many airplanes. And BTW, full opposite rudder may work in some, but certainly not all airplanes. When doing my first spins in the Hiperbipe, full opposite rudder caused an immediate outside snap and reversal in spin direction. Very disorienting, to say the least. Best recovery I have found is rudder and elevator to neutral - spin stops in a quarter turn.

I think each aircraft has it's own "best" recovery, and what works in one could make another go very wrong.

Amen to the last sentence.

A long time ago I was up with a young instructor for the spin sign off in a C150 for the CFI rating I was working on. I asked him if he cared to demonstrate a spin and recovery and he said, no just go ahead and do it. His thinking probably was I knew how to do it since I had much more experience than did he being in the military. Wrong.

The last military airplane I had spun required a definite "pop the stick forward" maneuver to affect a timely recovery. Well, do that in a C150 and it goes very vertical and through the red line in about 2 seconds. The pull out was most gentle as it would have been easy to pull the wings off but it cost a ton of altitude to get the ASI back behind the red line.

The asked the young CFI if he cared to see another one and he said, no that will do. I bought a C150 with some friends later and we spun it a lot but never popped the stick again.

I've stalled the RV many time but have not spun it. There comes a time in the aging process when that stuff is no fun at all so I don't do it.

 

[Toobuilder]

...The last military airplane I had spun required a definite "pop the stick forward" maneuver to affect a timely recovery...

Yep. My spin training consisted of a lot of ground instuction from several military instructor friends of mine.

...I can now tell you that what works in a T-37 does NOT work in my airplane!

 

[David Z]

RV-8 Spin Characteristics

How does a RV-8 spin react when you do things like add power? Push the stick forward with the rudder still on the floor? Or move the ailerons into/out of the spin?

 

[Snowflake]

The last military airplane I had spun required a definite "pop the stick forward" maneuver to affect a timely recovery. Well, do that in a C150 and it goes very vertical and through the red line in about 2 seconds. The pull out was most gentle as it would have been easy to pull the wings off but it cost a ton of altitude to get the ASI back behind the red line.

On my private flight test, which was done in a 150 Aerobat that I was quite comfortable in, the examiner called for a spin. I entered it a little faster than I should have, and when he asked for me to recover after about 1/2 turn we were literally pointed vertically at the ground.

My instructor had warned me that I would have to demonstrate all the proper recovery techniques, regardless of how silly they seemed at the time... Neutralizing rudder, yes, pushing to break the stall, yes. But at that point, I was about 30 degrees off-vertical, and upside down. From there, a safer recovery would be to keep the push going to 60 degrees, and roll upright. I didn't, just pulled back through the vertical and levelled off. My instructor told me later that I would have failed had I done anything else. But he was impressed that I had the presence of mind to make that tradeoff in my mind during the manoeuver.

Regardless, I still haven't spun my -6. I'll get an instructor to ride with me the first time.

 

[Captain Avgas]

What is an "aerobatic endorsement"? I have never heard of such a thing.

Hi Bill, because we have aerobatic endorsements here in Australia (sometimes called a Log Book Authorisation) I just assumed you would have them there in the US as well...but apparently not. Aerobatic training in the US is obviously undertaken on a more informal basis. We get a log book entry and presumably you get a certificate with three stars on it and the comment "Well done".

In Australia the aerobatic endorsement consists of a number of set electives including loops, barrel rolls, slow rolls, stall turns, rolls off the top, and recovery from spins (includes snap rolls).

As an aside, Jon Johanson (around the globe fame) once told me that his RV4 would repeatedly fly itself out of a developed spin if all pressure on all control surfaces was released. However when he added tip tanks (extra 3 kg at each wing tip) he needed to perform conventional inputs to affect a recovery.

 

[jrs14855]

spins

The airplanes that would not recover CONSISTENTLY using the Mueller Beggs method are the Cessna 150 and the T6. Maybe the stock Chipmunk. The problem with misuse of elevator is the potential for accelerating the spin. The safe method is to lead with full rudder, THEN elevator. For example, normal upright spin, lead with forward stick, the spin will accelerate very quickly to a very rapid rotation.
It is interesting to watch the stick using the Mueller Beggs. Let go of the stick, the stick will stay well aft. Full opposite rudder, the stick moves forward on its own. If doing a flat spin, the ailerons will go where they need to go as soon as recovery rudder is applied.
Some airplanes will recover MOST of the time hands and FEET off. This is not a reliable recovery method, just another point on the learning curve. The S2B Pitts will require full opposite rudder for more aft CG's. The S2B Pitts will recover with CG way outside the aft limit. This has been proven when the prop departed in a flat spin. The S1T, which has a aft cg with a normal load, is not fully controllable without the prop. Hartzell metal prop in both examples.

 

[RV8R999]

RV-8 Spin Recovery

Conducted Spin Testing Today -

Airplane: RV8
Test and Test Conditions:
Left Spin Recovery
GW: 1500lbs
CG: 82.6"
PA: 7500ft
OAT: 56 deg F

Configuration:
flaps Up
Fixed Pitch Wood (very pretty )

Entry:
Power: Idle
Full aft stick and full left rudder at peak of stall
3 Rotations prior to recovery


1.Spin recovery leading with relaxed stick prior to opposite rudder exacerbated yaw rate and increased the depression angle noticeably. Spin recovered in 1/2-3/4 turn in a very steep dive (houses getting big fast). Altitude lost until level with 2 g pull - 780 ft

2. Spin recovery leading with full opposite rudder while holding stick full aft and relaxing the stick an inch or so off the aft stop once rotation stopped resulted in spin recovery between 1/4-1/2 turn with moderate dive angle (houses getting big but not as fast). Altitude lost until level with 2 g pull - 680 ft

3. Spin recovery leading with full opposite rudder, holding stick full aft until rotation stops and moving stick to neutral resulted in rotation stopping 1/4-1/2 turn with a pronounced neg-g and steeper dive angle. Altitude lost until level with 2 g pull - 830 ft

4. Spin recovery with simultaneous opposite rudder and relaxed stick resulted in rotation stopped just over 1/4 turn and moderate dive angle. Altitude lost until level with 2g pull - 625 ft

Recovery method 4 was my favorite but 2 worked just fine. 1 and 3 were safe, and fun but more dynamic requiring more attention.

I'll do the test a couple more times bringing CG further aft.

Regards,

Ken

 

[DanH]

Nice Ken....it's such a pleasure having guys with professional test training.

 

[RV8R999]

Thanks Dan -

Sent you a PM

 

[RV8R999]

Ok that didn't work...

Dan

Just returned home from an extended at sea period and noticed you are now flying that beautiful plane of yours! Nice and congrats! The plenum and round inlets really work wonders for your CHTs..very nice.

Was this a new engine? How are your oil temps?

I'm still amazed with my low oil temps using a SW cooler and only a 3" sceet hose now 2/3 blocked off and still have temps at 180 max but 160-170 during cruise. Starting to wonder if I even need the oil cooler

Would love to meet you and see your plane in person. Let me know of any fly-ins you might be attending.

Again, congrats!

Ken

 

[skylor]

Beggs Mueller and Decathlons

The airplanes that would not recover CONSISTENTLY using the Mueller Beggs method are the Cessna 150 and the T6. M

Add the Decathlon to the list of aircraft that don't recover consistently using the Beggs Mueller method, at least the 150 hp variant with 2 people on board (but the CG well forward of the aft limit).

I was up doing a basic aerobatic course with an instructor a few years ago and we had previously completed everything that was on this particular FBO's "basic" aerobatic syllabus. My instructor asked if there was anything in particular I wanted to do that day (we had already covered basic upright spins), and I said I wanted to try inverted spins as well as some other spin variations such as a flat spin. On one of the upright spins, he said "OK, this time we're going to try the Beggs Mueller recovery technique." After about 2 turns he said "OK, take your feet off the pedals and let go of the stick," which I did. Another revolution later he said "let got of the stick," which of course I had already done but it remained against the aft stop on it's own. He started laughing while I proceeded with a normal recovery. "Oh my god, it doesn't work! Beggs Mueller doesn't work!" he exclaimed. It was pretty funny.

Would you care to elaborate on this. Exactly what recovery inputs do you find are required in a left spin in your RV8.

As I stated in my original post, my normal spin recovery is to apply opposite rudder first with the stick still full aft, then move the elevator to the neutral position at the point I want to stop rotation (this is assuming power is already at idle, as is the case when I've spun the -8...obviously power to idle is #1 typically). Doing right hand spins in the -8, the rotation will stop with application of opposite rudder while the stick is still full back, but in left hand turns the plane continues to spin until the elevator is moved to neutral. I have to admit, though, that I did not wait very long to see if the rotation would eventually stop without neutralizing the elevator. An experiment for another day...

Skylor

 

[Bavafa]

A lot of very good info and I am hoping to find a competent instructor to do this training with as I will not try it on my own for sure.

Any information or thought as how a 7A would behave?

Again, thanks for all the feedback, information and testing.

 

[jartlip]

Add the Decathlon to the list of aircraft that don't recover consistently using the Beggs Mueller method, at least the 150 hp variant with 2 people on board (but the CG well forward of the aft limit).

I was up doing a basic aerobatic course with an instructor a few years ago and we had previously completed everything that was on this particular FBO's "basic" aerobatic syllabus. My instructor asked if there was anything in particular I wanted to do that day (we had already covered basic upright spins), and I said I wanted to try inverted spins as well as some other spin variations such as a flat spin. On one of the upright spins, he said "OK, this time we're going to try the Beggs Mueller recovery technique." After about 2 turns he said "OK, take your feet off the pedals and let go of the stick," which I did. Another revolution later he said "let got of the stick," which of course I had already done but it remained against the aft stop on it's own. He started laughing while I proceeded with a normal recovery. "Oh my god, it doesn't work! Beggs Mueller doesn't work!" he exclaimed. It was pretty funny.



As I stated in my original post, my normal spin recovery is to apply opposite rudder first with the stick still full aft, then move the elevator to the neutral position at the point I want to stop rotation (this is assuming power is already at idle, as is the case when I've spun the -8...obviously power to idle is #1 typically). Doing right hand spins in the -8, the rotation will stop with application of opposite rudder while the stick is still full back, but in left hand turns the plane continues to spin until the elevator is moved to neutral. I have to admit, though, that I did not wait very long to see if the rotation would eventually stop without neutralizing the elevator. An experiment for another day...

Skylor

I think the Muller Beggs method involves bringing the power to idle, releasing the stick, and then pressing on the rudder pedal that offers more resistance. If you just take your feet off the pedals and let go of the stick, a lot of airplanes will continue to spin. I know the Decathlon and Tomahawk will. The Pitts will come out of the spin if you use the Mueller Beggs technique properly.

 

[skylor]

I think the Muller Beggs method involves bringing the power to idle, releasing the stick, and then pressing on the rudder pedal that offers more resistance. If you just take your feet off the pedals and let go of the stick, a lot of airplanes will continue to spin. I know the Decathlon and Tomahawk will. The Pitts will come out of the spin if you use the Mueller Beggs technique properly.

Honestly, I may have applied opposite rudder, but it was a few years ago so I'm not 100% sure. I just recall that the stick remained full aft and the spin did not stop.

Nevertheless, I prefer positive spin recovery techniques (PARE) in the planes that I've flow. Perhaps my opinion would be a little different if I had experience spinning a Pitts.

Skylor

 

[Bill Dicus]

Spins, Beggs

Beggs describes the stick going to a position slightly aft of neutral and slightly in-spin. This is exactly what I've observed in the planes in which we've tried the Beggs/Mueller technique, with the T-6 an exception. Use of absolutely full opposite rudder (the hardest to push and opposite to turn needle) is a key part of the hands off recovery. I wonder, Skylor, if you didn't have full outspin rudder input? A British RV-8 builder and test pilot did a nice write up on all types of spins and recovery in his -8. All recoveries were prompt, predictable and conventional IIRC. This article appeared in the RVator.

 

[delusional]

no two peas in a pod...

...each aircraft has it's own "best" recovery, and what works in one could make another go very wrong.

I learned to fly in a fleet of four 65hp J-3s. I spun in most of them similarly loaded so I can assure you that it is not safe to assume all aircraft of same type will respond similarly, even at the same cg loading. We had one which you really had to work hard to get it to _start_ spinning. Others mostly responded in text-book fashion. I'm guessing most of those differences could be traced to rigging differences, washout and whatnot, which on a Cub, can seriously transform an airplane. But there are other explanations possible.

Anyway, just be careful assuming that because somebody else's RV-N behaves a certain way near the edge of the envelope, that means yours will, too; it might not. And altitude is your friend, up to the point of hypoxia onset.

 

[jrs14855]

spins

I googled "spinning with Gene Beggs" and the result is a lot of information,very little if any directly from Beggs. The one thing that should be emphasized is that the Mueller Beggs recovery is an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE. It is not meant to be used routinely for spin recoverys. I also found some info that I cannot verify, third partys quoting Beggs: T34C, Cessna 150/152, T6/SNJ, and DECATHALON will not recover from some spins hands off. Also that the Decathalon POH states "positive forward stick" for recovery from an upright spin. Anyone with a Decathalon POH that can veriify this?? Further statement that Champ and Citabria were certified under CAR 4 which requires 6 turn spin with hands off recovery in less than 1 1/2 turns. Decathalon is certified under less stringent FAR.

 

[Kahuna]

Gents,
ICAS has a standard for their air show waivers that you might find useful in your spin training. They require a demonstrated 3 turn spin, exit on heading +-10deg.
I have found in my years of working with RV'ers that they have no idea when or what gets them out, they just eventually come out and they are happy with that. Wow I did a spin and lived.
The RV does not get fully developped until past 2. Exit requirements differ from each RV model we fly, to how we are loaded, to the DA we are flying it at.
All of the helpers in the world here on the list are interesting, but you can't know anything till you go practice it, and practice it to the point that you can nail a 3+ turn entry and exit on heading in different configurations. You need to be in a box, with lines you can watch so you can see what you are doing and what your inputs are changing. When you can do that, then you will have command of your plane in a spin and you will know by then how YOUR plane is affected by the items discussed here. We have many techniques to control the spin on entry, during, and exit to actually control the plane. Most pilots are just hanging on. You can and should fly your plane through all your maneuvers. Dont just hang on for the ride.
Just a little something for you to consider.

 

[Thomas Lukasczyk]

Hi there

I do strongly recommend some spin training and aerobatic training before spinning your RV.
Many people tell you that it is no big deal and that they thought it is an easy thing to do.
Well I think making no mistakes is one thing. Actively avoiding them by staying ahead of your airplane all
the time is another. One will not learn everything it takes by just stalling the airplane and giving pro spin control inputs at the same time.
RVs do spin, they do spin fast compared to most other airplanes and although recovery is straightforward, it is not something you should do unprepared.
My RV-4 takes two revolutions until the spin fully developes. The sinkrate is high and there is some delay when you make the necessary inputs to recover.

Spin video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E303n9BPAB8

Inverted Spin video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzq6pe5Ku4Q

Always fly save

Thomas

http://www.rv-4.de

 

[Dmadd]

great video Thomas. Thanks.

Dennis
RV-4

 

[trib]

How about your technique Kahuna

Kahuna,

I'd be very interested in hearing your recovery technique for the 6A, particularly since you have it down so accurately. I've had instructor training in a diamond for spins, but have yet to spin my RV.

Looking forward to seeing TeamRV this weekend in Charlotte.

 

[tadsargent]

RV spins vs Decathlon

I spent one afternoon several weeks ago pulling the seat cushion out of my backside because of a botched spin exit. I am practicing for the SAC card then using this with Team RV. After this episode I decided to get proper training and used a Decathlon and Ron Henry at AcroDynamics in Mooresville NC. This was exactly what I needed and did on Saturday 10-30-2010.

Two things I learned. The Decathlon will spin slower than the 7A I use. By slower I mean the earth is still going by quickly in each plane. However, each is predictable in the exit. The 7A through 2 turns is about the same as the Decathlon but the third turn on the 7 increases the rate about 30%. That being said the exit techniques are the same. Opposite rudder and move the stick to center. On the 2 revolution spin I am able to come out exactly on heading in the 7A. I am working on the 3 turn exit and I need to lead it about 180 degrees to exit on heading as I am over rotating by too much, I will nail it.

By the way Ron had me perform 6 turns to the left and I did come close to exit on heading by 50 degrees, not bad the first time out. I then spun to the RIGHT. It was pretty much the same left or right on exit technique. I

The second big difference is the RV’s tigher in the radius of the turn which is understandable due to the shortened wing length compared to the Decathlon.

I then spun my 7 on Sunday and saw the light bulb flashing in my head and I had an aha moment, The RV spins similarly to the Decathlon, full opposite rudder and feed it elevator, faster with the elevator if you want an more abrupt stop. Next I’ll get to 6 turns and report back.

My bio is I do not really like spins but they are just another maneuver to learn. So get out there with an instructor and spin the ole RV it's fun.
Life begins at 3 turns.

Stripes

 

[sandifer]

Kahuna,

I'd be very interested in hearing your recovery technique for the 6A, particularly since you have it down so accurately.

Add in-spin aileron (which should slow the spin), stop the spin about 10 degrees before your desired heading and then aileron it the last few degrees dead nuts to your desired heading...the judges will never know the difference if you do it right.

But more seriously, recovering on heading is one of those things you just have to learn on your own in your specific airplane. It will take a bit of practice. After applying opposite rudder, you'll have to play around with the timing and degree of forward stick that produces an acceptably prompt and consistent recovery. You don't necessarily have to find the absolute most efficient, quickest recovery. Consistency is more important...not only with technique, but with the weight and balance conditions of the airplane. Once you have that, all you have to do is maintain your situational awareness and find the "lead" angle necessary to start your recovery such that the spin exits on your desired heading. "Lead" angles will be different, depending on how much the spin has developed (1.5 turns vs. 3 turns, etc.).

For example, a 1 1/2 turn competition spin exit in my Pitts involves full opposite rudder 90 degrees before my intended exit heading, and an instant later bringing the stick forward at a rate such that it will reach the position that breaks the stall and stops rotation simultaneous with the arrival on heading. You develop an internal sense of timing that with practice becomes very repeatable. But then you could also cheat a little as first described.