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NASA515

Well Known Member
Some good news, and some not-so-good news:

Skyview 5.1 released today:

http://dynonavionics.com/downloads/Software/SkyView_5.1_US_Package.duc

This update will allow Data Logging - especially useful for test flying and just in time for me. For once, I didn't show up a day too late!

Meanwhile, LSA airplanes and the LSA Industry are viewed as dead, dying or on life-support. Fortunately, the RV-12 stands out as a positive exception to the gloom and doom. Two current articles:

http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/going-direct/light-sport-aircraft-segment-critical-condition

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_USSportAviationExpo_LSAFailureToLaunch_208077-1.html

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
These "blogs" would have you believe that the LSA industry was once booming. I don't think that was ever the case. The sport pilot / LSA revolution would have had a much better boost if the FAA allowed already existing aircraft in the mix (C150's etc...). It all comes down to cost. New LSA's are $$$$. You can pick up a nice 150 for less than 25K. The skycatcher is 115k + ! I agree most RV-12 builders opt for the build experience and performance of the -12, not the sole fact it is LSA. The -12 is not a 150 nor is it a skycatcher. It's better than a skycatcher.

The LSA market has always been slow... ELSA by VANS is a winner.
 
Some wide ranging comments in those articles and responses, and it will be interesting to how Van's fare with their SLSA version of the RV-12.

When I was wondering which aircraft to build the only real advantage of an LSA over a used Cessna was that it could be flown without having to have our CLass 2 medical, and that was certainly a plus. However, even that has changed now with CASA accepting a Driver's Licence medical for GA pilots, which will enable them to continue to fly their RV's, Cessnas and Pipers, subject to a few restrictions.

There were a number of reason I chose the RV-12, but the fact that it was an LSA was well down the list. It's just a great kit, and look at what it's doing in introducing aviation to all those high school kids.
 
One possible reason for LSA not booming in US is the 120 kt restriction.
Overseas there is no specific speed restriction on LSA, and many are quite speedy. Seems to work outside US, so can't see why US maintains it as 120kts max.
John
 
Where do you get light sport pilot lessons?

I live in the NorthWest (Idaho) and can not find "anywhere" to get flying lessons. If you ask me....that's what killing much of the industry!!

I've got a decades old commercial ticket and don't want to take the flight physical.....having a **** of a time finding someone to get some stick time so I can take a check ride. From the peanut gallery.....any ideas?
 
Ric: I'm sorry to hear that. I live in the Seattle area, and even here (a large city with a strong GA community) there are only about three places where you can take lessons in an LSA, with one LSA each. I can only access an LSA if I drive either half an hour north or almost an hour south (or buy one).

That's not surprising. These airplanes cost way more to acquire than a used 152/172, and probably cost more to insure too, which in turn means that they're not any cheaper to rent, and that most students will choose to rent a bigger airplane instead (unless they have medical issues). So if I owned an FBO, I'm not sure I would get an LSA.

Sure, some LSAs are affordable, like Champs and Taylorcraft, but those are not as attractive to students. Students want glass panels and bubble canopies.

So in the end, I'm with K.Lewis. The LSA thing never took off. An LSA doesn't make financial sense for an FBO. For someone like you and me, a used Cessna or used RV is much more bang for your buck. The only real market are pilots who are about to lose their medical, and who want something nicer than an old Taylorcraft or Champ or Ercoupe. Manufacturers cater to those pilots, so the price stays up there.

And that's really too bad. I think more people would learn to fly if you could get your license for $3K (as offered by some of the places that do instruct in LSAs). Unfortunately, it doesn't make much financial sense to buy an airplane that costs $150K (or even a used SportStar for $60K) in order to be able to offer that deal.

I am passionate about sharing aviation with others. Someday I may become a CFI and get my hands on a cheap LSA so that I can offer that deal, as a hobby. Or maybe not: right now it's basically just a fantasy. But GA would not be in such a crisis if more pilots thought about becoming hobbyist CFIs...
 
Not sure I understand the problem

Phantom30 said:
I live in the NorthWest (Idaho) and can not find "anywhere" to get flying lessons. If you ask me....that's what killing much of the industry!!

I've got a decades old commercial ticket and don't want to take the flight physical.....having a **** of a time finding someone to get some stick time so I can take a check ride. From the peanut gallery.....any ideas?
Click to expand...

If you have a commercial pilot ticket without a medical, you automatically have a sport pilot certificate.
I understand that you may want some refresh training, but you don't need to take any kind of checkride other than a flight review.
 
AirShowFan said:
The only real market are pilots who are about to lose their medical, and who want something nicer than an old Taylorcraft or Champ or Ercoupe. Manufacturers cater to those pilots, so the price stays up there.
Click to expand...

The price stays up there because it costs so much to build an airplane these days. Look what kind of money people put into their own homebuilts-- now add in the cost to maintain a skilled team of employees to build & test them, the cost of having a decent building to build them, the cost of marketing them (40K+ for advertising for a year in one of our favorite light aviation magazines). Then the cost of supporting the fleet with documentation, engineering, parts, safety notices... Manufacturers have to cater to those people because they are the only ones who can afford to buy a new airplane that isn't an ultralight. It's unfortunate, but it's plain economics.
 
Mel said:
If you have a commercial pilot ticket without a medical, you automatically have a sport pilot certificate.
I understand that you may want some refresh training, but you don't need to take any kind of checkride other than a flight review.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mel for the reply.....you call it a flight review??? Seems kind of like a check ride (maybe just terminology difference); anyway, I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping into anything without a good airspace review and some basic flight skills brush up.

I can't find anyone within reasonable driving distance that is set up for instruction in a lsa....and heaven forbid get some solo time. Guess I'll just have to build my -12 and find someone rated to give some instruction.

Then....what about insurance without type rated in aircraft? Don't understand why the FAA won't let sport piloting of a 150/152. Would be much easier to get basic flight training...just my 2 cents.
 
RV-12 Transition Training

Well, I have a 50 year complex flying background.

As I approached my RV-12 first flight, I needed to knock more than a little rust off my skillset. Assuming I ever had one.

Since I had a license, I went to the local FBO and got my Biennial renewed. (Actually, I had never had a Biennial, since I had last flown as small airplane PIC before they invented such critters. I took my training in a Cherokee 140 - the airplane I had used for my initial License, way back in 1963-64. I whipped out my Logbook, and to the amazement of all, my last flight in a Cherokee 140 was September 1965. Everyone wanted to see that, and had a good laugh. ****, it didn't seem that long ago to me......

I initially took a few flights in a 172 and 150 - those spam cans were totally unlike the RV's, so I gave that up. When the local FBO put their For Sale Cherokee up on the flight training line, I jumped at the chance. With low wing, manual flap handle in the middle, stabilator, and a lot of other stuff, I think - and found it - to be an ideal early transition airplane. I like Cherokees. Sometimes, fond old memories are faulty - not with that airplane. We fit together like an old pair of moccasins.

I was worried about atrophied skills (and more), and honestly thought it might take 100 hours to get back in the saddle. But - it didn't. I have done much aviation stuff, since then, and the easy flying Cherokee (an airplane from 1965 with the same interior and everything), flew just as I remembered. In only 5 hours, and 24 landings, I got signed off. And, I must say, I felt I could safely and readily take that airplane out anywhere and bring it back in one piece.

Then I went to see Mike Seager in Oregon. I recommend you do likewise. We flew the Vans Demonstrator for 8 flights over 3 days with 43 landings. The RV is not as easy or forgiving to fly as the Cherokee, but we never crashed. Or even made hard landings. My 40 years in 737s and big airplanes made all my flares at 10+ feet - that WAS a problem. But, I'll get over it. The free-swiveling nosewheel made taxiing more of a challenge than flying. Mike might not agree.

Any which way, that was my re-entry into GA RV flying and I recommend something similar. Between the Cherokee and RV-12 transition, I spent a little over $2K. In the scheme of things, that ain't much. I want to fly safe, and I'm sure you do too.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Phantom30 said:
You call it a flight review??? Seems kind of like a check ride (maybe just terminology difference).
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that if you're certificated pilot and haven't flown in a while, what you need to get back in the air is a Flight Review (flight with an instructor who then endorses you to keep flying) rather than a checkride (practical test with an FAA examiner who then approves you for a new kind of certificate). If you recently passed a Flight Review, then the FAA will not mind if you go fly an LSA... but like you said, it would not be sensible to do so without transition training (and the insurance companies would agree).

KatieB said:
The price stays up there because it costs so much to build an airplane these days.
Click to expand...

That's true. However, it's still not a black-and-white issue. There are a couple of bare-bones LSAs out there that cost much less. The X-Air is ~$60K, the CH750 is ~$75K, the Aerotrek is ~85K. They range from basically ultralight-like to, well, real metal airplanes with transponders and GPSs. All I'm saying is: They're not super popular, because they're not as "cool" as a SportStar, SportCruiser, or RV-12. Their performance is not very much inferior (it's actually a little superior if STOL is what you want), but they aim for what turns out to be a niche market. Everyone says they want a cheap LSA... but then almost everyone who gets an LSA gets a SkyCatcher or a FlightDesign or something else that costs well over $100K. I think that if there really were a significant market for "budget LSAs", we'd see more of them out there. (And, again, I think it's such a small market because there are tons of excellent vintage LSAs out there for real cheap).
 
Honestly this is why the Onex is so attractive to me- $25,291 for a total finishing cost......just saying it is awful attractive if you are like me and are just interested in something to buzz around in!
 
NASA515 said:
Well, I have a 50 year complex flying background.

As I approached my RV-12 first flight, I needed to knock more than a little rust off my skillset. Assuming I ever had one.

Since I had a license, I went to the local FBO and got my Biennial renewed. (Actually, I had never had a Biennial, since I had last flown as small airplane PIC before they invented such critters. I took my training in a Cherokee 140 - the airplane I had used for my initial License, way back in 1963-64. I whipped out my Logbook, and to the amazement of all, my last flight in a Cherokee 140 was September 1965. Everyone wanted to see that, and had a good laugh. ****, it didn't seem that long ago to me......

I initially took a few flights in a 172 and 150 - those spam cans were totally unlike the RV's, so I gave that up. When the local FBO put their For Sale Cherokee up on the flight training line, I jumped at the chance. With low wing, manual flap handle in the middle, stabilator, and a lot of other stuff, I think - and found it - to be an ideal early transition airplane. I like Cherokees. Sometimes, fond old memories are faulty - not with that airplane. We fit together like an old pair of moccasins.

I was worried about atrophied skills (and more), and honestly thought it might take 100 hours to get back in the saddle. But - it didn't. I have done much aviation stuff, since then, and the easy flying Cherokee (an airplane from 1965 with the same interior and everything), flew just as I remembered. In only 5 hours, and 24 landings, I got signed off. And, I must say, I felt I could safely and readily take that airplane out anywhere and bring it back in one piece.

Then I went to see Mike Seager in Oregon. I recommend you do likewise. We flew the Vans Demonstrator for 8 flights over 3 days with 43 landings. The RV is not as easy or forgiving to fly as the Cherokee, but we never crashed. Or even made hard landings. My 40 years in 737s and big airplanes made all my flares at 10+ feet - that WAS a problem. But, I'll get over it. The free-swiveling nosewheel made taxiing more of a challenge than flying. Mike might not agree.

Any which way, that was my re-entry into GA RV flying and I recommend something similar. Between the Cherokee and RV-12 transition, I spent a little over $2K. In the scheme of things, that ain't much. I want to fly safe, and I'm sure you do too.

Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...

Bob,

Thanks for the imput....Having made a conzilion phone calls within a reasonable driving radius, I've decided to go ahead with a class 3 physical (I know I can pass...just a pain in the butt with FAA Med examiners [lukimia issues-Agent Orange]); then do as you have with a local area Flt School.
 
Ric,

I suggest you skip the Medical.

I took my Biennial and Transition training without one - my last one was a First Class, and it expired years ago. During my training, the CFI's acted as PIC. They made all the Logbook endorsements.

Even if you pass the 3rd Class, sounds like you have some "issues", and the FAA may well respond with a letter asking for more tests and doctor letters from your personal physician (not the AME) and others. If you were then to decide it is too much hassle and not respond, the FAA would rescind your medical, you would lose your eligibility to fly as a sport pilot, and your flying days would be over.

If, as you say, you know you can pass a 3rd class medical, you are good to go as a sport pilot without going through all of that. I know of numerous cases of pilots (personal friends) who have been grounded for 6 or 8 months - they ultimately received their medicals, but only after "proving" to the FAA that their issues were satisfactory. That could also apply to me - I received an artificial hip about 18 months ago. "not a problem", they say - but I have to PROVE it to them......

I think your plan represents "Significant Risk" at two levels (initial physical and potential follow-ups), and should be carefully considered before you proceed down that path.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
LSA Training

Check out the RV community at Bonners Ferry Airport (Boundary County)
at least 5 RV's live and breathe there !!
 
Training

Maybe I'm wrong (again), but I believe that Ric was referring to getting training for the Sport Pilot Certificate. I'm with him on his thought that it is hard to find CFIs and aircraft locally in order to get an original Sport Pilot Certificate. I live in the LA area and know of only two CFIs who are producing new Sport Pilots. There probably are more that I don't know about - hope so - the point is that the availability of CFIs teaching for the Sport Pilot Certificate is not high.
 
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