T

TThurston

Well Known Member
There is a proverb: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

I've read much of the Skyview manual, and it seems like a wonderful, full-featured system. But with some of the recent threads about backup instrumentation, I wonder if perhaps it's wise to have a system so fully integrated that there's no need (or electrical power) for any else.

On the old system, if my D180 died, I might still have a D120. Or if not, I could at least use the panel page of my 496 (with ground speed instead of airspeed). But with the Skyview system, it seems like there is no backup at all, except for the stall warning. Perhaps the new Skyview system is so reliable that it will NEVER fail. Is that it?
 
backup

I don't care how reliable it is< I would still install steam alt, airspeed and horizon.
 
I may eventually add a 2nd screen. Or a Garmin Aera - which has the backup GPS-based instrument view and should fit in the center stack. It is incorrect to say that there is inadequate electrical power for anything else though. See this thread - in which the same Rotax enginer WITHOUT any supplemental alternator powers dual Skyviews, AP, lights, and all kinds of stuff.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=80077

*** Flight Design has confirmed that this is the dual-screen Skyview, which is the only option that they sell. The package is dual SkyView, radio, mode S transponder, Garmin 696, autopilot, intercom, ELT, position lights, landing light, interior light. Shoot, the CTLS even has electric flaps.
http://flightdesignusa.com/aircraft/ctls/photos/
 
I'm also a bit wary of having all my eggs in one basket, and as I'm building EAB, I'm fitting a backup 2 1/4" airspeed, alt and compass prior to completion. The compass is required over here anyway. Cheap insurance, and they look nice too.

In fact, I'm also fitting an old-fashioned bubble because I don't like the tiny electronic one on the Dynon, and a clock. It was going to be an electric one, but to save wiring it up and possibly running the battery down in the hangar, I'm giving a refurbished Elgin 8 day clock a new career. Both totally unnecessary of course, but why not?
 
In my Gobosh 700 (Aero AT-4) I have a single Dynon D-180 and I am getting a Garmin 796 installed into the panel for backup. It isn't perfect and obviously ground speed vs air speed is different but it serves as a nice backup. I plan to do the same in my RV-12. I really love the 796 and having used it for a long cross country from Colorado Springs to Sebring this year I think it will make an excellent addition to the RV-12.

Carl
 
I have some round gauges I intended to install as backup, that was my prime reason for departing ELSA. As later things happened, I think my IPAD with WingX will do just fine, lighter and more information.
 
Backups?

My instrument panel will have two 10" skyviews and one D6 all with independent battery backups behind two alternators, a backup pitot, by the way, and a GTN650:
The USN T28 trainer I flew for instrument training (in IMC on occasion) had one airspeed indicator (I will have 3), one altimeter (I will have 3), one gyro (I will have 3) one ADF and one Tacan, (I will have two GPS, and one VOR/ILS) one VSI, (I will have 3), one COM (I will have two) one RMI, (I will have two HSI and one directional gyro). And it did not have an autopilot I will have the Dynon which includes a backup controller (second skyview).
I feel the panel I will have will more than handle any IFR I might choose to fly with enough backup to create a comfort level adequate for me without mechanical gauges. Just my opinion about something that I believe will work for me.
 
TThurston said:
There is a proverb: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

I've read much of the Skyview manual, and it seems like a wonderful, full-featured system. But with some of the recent threads about backup instrumentation, I wonder if perhaps it's wise to have a system so fully integrated that there's no need (or electrical power) for any else.

On the old system, if my D180 died, I might still have a D120. Or if not, I could at least use the panel page of my 496 (with ground speed instead of airspeed). But with the Skyview system, it seems like there is no backup at all, except for the stall warning. Perhaps the new Skyview system is so reliable that it will NEVER fail. Is that it?
Click to expand...

Lots of threads on this, but...

A dynon D-10A, or a different brand's equivalent if you believe in having a different vendor provide extra safety in case all the eggs in that basket have the same software glitch at the same time, can have a self-contained backup battery and internal ahrs, so that if your skyview went TU (extremely unlikely), you still have plenty of info/instrumentation to get down on the D-10A.

I've contemplated several different back-up solutions and the only thing I think that could pose a problem with a backup EFIS vs steam is a lightning strike that knocked out every electrical device in the plane (not likely I wouldn't think). Realistically, I think the chances of an engine failure or icing are the much more likely potentially deadly scenarios in IMC.

If you insist on flying a single engine experimental prop plane in crappy enough weather to prove $15k of fully redundant EFISs not enough to keep you right side up, then go with steam gauge backups if it makes you feel better. But I personally wouldn't hesitate to fly in the clouds with the redundancy these systems provide from an instrumentation standpoint. I also wouldn't be in weather bad enough to be an issue in one of these planes though. Punching through a layer is one thing...hard IFR/IMC in SE E/AB single pilot airplane with no de-ice? No thanks.

Keep in mind, airliners use digital backups now as well.

Wow, my reply is way too long. Sorry!
 
RV-12 Skyview

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post.

I wasn't questioning how to design a panel in general, only wondering about the new panel in the RV-12. I'm currently building an RV-9A. But I've been concerned about the cost of flying it, and wondering whether it might be less expensive to fly an RV-12. But I worry about the wonderful highly integrated instrument system.
 
Are you planning on doing any IFR flying? If not I wouldn't be too worried about it, you can always use a handheld (panel mounted or not) as a back up speed reference. If you're staying VFR you've got all the redundancy you need out the window.

12 vs 9, I haven't looked at the operating cost... but they don't seem to be too far apart in the speed vs. fuel burn = MPG realm depending on what engine you use.
 
Bob'sRV6A said:
My instrument panel will have two 10" skyviews and one D6 all with independent battery backups behind two alternators, a backup pitot, by the way, and a GTN650:
The USN T28 trainer I flew for instrument training (in IMC on occasion) had one airspeed indicator (I will have 3), one altimeter (I will have 3), one gyro (I will have 3) one ADF and one Tacan, (I will have two GPS, and one VOR/ILS) one VSI, (I will have 3), one COM (I will have two) one RMI, (I will have two HSI and one directional gyro). And it did not have an autopilot I will have the Dynon which includes a backup controller (second skyview).
I feel the panel I will have will more than handle any IFR I might choose to fly with enough backup to create a comfort level adequate for me without mechanical gauges. Just my opinion about something that I believe will work for me.
Click to expand...

Wow. The poor old RV-12's simple day VFR panel might be a bit small for all that gear :(
 
TThurston said:
I'm currently building an RV-9A. But I've been concerned about the cost of flying it, and wondering whether it might be less expensive to fly an RV-12.
Click to expand...

I suspect the most significant difference would be the cost of mogas at the pump compared to avgas. Actual fuel useage is probably similar (uses less fuel per hour, but takes longer to get there), and I suspect that other operating costs might be much the same - insurance, hangar, maintenance, etc. However, that's just speculation. I'd be interested to know too, so maybe some of those already flying may be able to comment?
 
rgmwa said:
I suspect the most significant difference would be the cost of mogas at the pump compared to avgas. Actual fuel useage is probably similar (uses less fuel per hour, but takes longer to get there), and I suspect that other operating costs might be much the same - insurance, hangar, maintenance, etc. However, that's just speculation. I'd be interested to know too, so maybe some of those already flying may be able to comment?
Click to expand...

If you have a low compression standard Lycoming engine in the RV9 you will be very close on fuel consumption with the RV12 because both will be able to use Mogas. Non ethenal Mogas is available many places. Here we can buy it at a local airport right next to the 100LL Avgas and it is $1.00 less per gallon.
 
The TT Gemini PFD is perfect for you guys. It is my undersanding that it draws very little power. $1300.00
 
I am patiently waiting for my TT Gemini PFD to back up my g3x. It is the only way to go, light, good price, great unit, great company and great support.
 
That's exactly what I'm getting at, have the largest horizon outside the canopy and enjoying the view. Minimums to fly my RV similar to riding my Harley. Enjoyed IFR while getting paid to do so. :)
 
Dead Display

There is another not so obvious reason to have back up instruments.
On Friday the 12 of July this year we, a test pilot and I, were ready for the first flight. We had checked the RV-12 the previous day and all was ready. After a pre-flight in the hangar and turning the master switch on for some checks and then back off before moving the plane outside for the big day. With the master switch on there was no display on the SkyView. It was black and would flash white for 2-3 seconds and did this continuously. After trying every thing that we could think of I called Dynon. They confirmed that we had done all that was possible and issued an RMA #. The display went off that afternoon and Dynon received it the following Monday the 15th. The test pilot went back home. When I inquired about it's return Dynon said that their policy of TEN days turnaround would apply and they would ship it out on the 29th of July. If I had been away from home my choices were not very good. Wait for it to come back, that's two weeks in a motel or travel home and back again two weeks later. Neither one is really acceptable to me.
What is needed is a "loaner" or back up instruments to get you home. GRT would have had one there in less than 24 hours, been there done that.
Henry
 
I think that 10 day "turnaround" is for a turnaround of YOUR unit. If you are willing to accept another serial number (likely a refurb) then they will cross-ship you a unit overnight.

I have gone through 3 ADAHRS boxes, and I got the swap units in my hands in less than 24 hours.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
When I first built my -9, I had a backup AS and Altimeter in it for the D100. When I replaced the D100 with a SkyView, I removed the backup instruments as I realized they really weren't needed. However, I did add a D1 to the panel and kept the 496 in place. That gives me all the redundancy I need for not very much $$$.

Don't forget, unless you add a second pitot and static lines, even redundant instruments can be rendered useless. Thus the D1 Pocket Panel.
 
TThurston said:
There is a proverb: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

I've read much of the Skyview manual, and it seems like a wonderful, full-featured system. But with some of the recent threads about backup instrumentation, I wonder if perhaps it's wise to have a system so fully integrated that there's no need (or electrical power) for any else.

On the old system, if my D180 died, I might still have a D120. Or if not, I could at least use the panel page of my 496 (with ground speed instead of airspeed). But with the Skyview system, it seems like there is no backup at all, except for the stall warning. Perhaps the new Skyview system is so reliable that it will NEVER fail. Is that it?
Click to expand...

For VFR, the SkyView is your backup system. Your eyes are your primary system.
 
For a few $100 you can add two "steam gages" AS & ALT. If VFR flying is the answer it's all you need with perhaps the addition of a slip/skid ball. After all that,s all you need to fly a glider.

2nd ly don't quit on the 9A faster, no gas inside, longer range
 
I back up the Skyview with a Dynon D1 panel mounted. My IPad is a backup to that, with my smart phone backing it all up, a handheld radio rounds it all out. I don't need any more!
 
Two!

Two 10" Skyviews being installed here. Going to fly VFR daytime only, so if they both take a dump, I'm just gonna look out the canopy and fly the bird down, safely. ;)
 
txaviator said:
Two 10" Skyviews being installed here. Going to fly VFR daytime only, so if they both take a dump, I'm just gonna look out the canopy and fly the bird down, safely. ;)
Click to expand...

WOW! that's more than I paid for my 1300 hour O320.

I guess that's what great about the experimental world...... you get to have it your way.....;)
 
NASA515 said:
I think that 10 day "turnaround" is for a turnaround of YOUR unit. If you are willing to accept another serial number (likely a refurb) then they will cross-ship you a unit overnight.

I have gone through 3 ADAHRS boxes, and I got the swap units in my hands in less than 24 hours.

Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...

You have been through 3 Adahars boxes? What caused such a reliability issue?
 
vlittle said:
For VFR, the SkyView is your backup system. Your eyes are your primary system.
Click to expand...
I get your point, but to be legal for day VFR:

Part 91 VFR minimum equipment: airspeed, altimeter, compass, tachometer, fuel gauge, oil temperature, oil pressure
Click to expand...
Of course should I have a complete failure in the air I think I could fly the plane just fine. Navigation could be a chore - I'm thinking of an iFly 720 to provide a level of navigational redundancy.
 
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This is about as simple as it gets this side of steam but it does have a backup. The GRT Sport for everything you need to know and the Trio to get down, around or through 1000/3 summer time haze.

EIS 4000 is reliable as anything so long as there is juice in the battery.

Beyond that, it is a VFR panel in a VFR airplane and is eye balls and ears for sight, sound, and feel.

Any more panels of glass in a VFR airplane just clutters things. KISS. I'd rather have a new pick up. :)




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Dgamble said:
Part 91 VFR minimum equipment: airspeed, altimeter, compass, tachometer, fuel gauge, oil temperature, oil pressure
Click to expand...

how hard is it to get all that in a Skyview RV12 ?
the Airspeed and Altimeter are easy, no problem T-ing into the static and pitot lines.
Fuel guage is the sight strip on the tank
magnetic compass easy

so how do you get Tach, Oil P and Oil T
are they simple to wire into the existing probes?
 
tach, oil p and t are all electrical sensors on the Rotax whose outputs are wires that come through the firewall. You are not in violation of the regs if you have an EFIS failure in flight without a "backup!" Certified planes have plenty of non-redundant instruments on that list. I think a good realistic backup would be the Dynon D1 Pocket Panel and an old GPS. (Yes, I know it is not really "airspeed...")

Note that the pitot tubing on the Skyview RV12 passes from the prop spinner through the firewall and aft, but the static system is all back in the tailcone. To get static to the panel would require more tubing run forward.
 
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