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dick seiders

Well Known Member
Ok, now don't throw anything at me, but I would like to know if there has been a thread yet on taking out the D180 and plugging in the 7" Skyview? I know it likely would not be quite that simple, but am interested in the features the Skyview has that the D180 doesn't. I can't find anything using search, but never was very good at that. No, I haven't yet called Van's, Steinair, or Dynon, as I want to go direct to the folks who have already done that. I would like to retain my present panel layout so am not interested in the 100% panel change I have seen for the 10" display. Is it practical, (not including cost in this question) and can it be done w/o ripping out all my avionics wiring? Appeciate any comments.
Dick Seiders
 
Dick, I did pose that very question to Stein Air last week. It will not be a leisurely walk from the D180 to the 7" Skyview for many reasons. I was told that Van's would play a big role in this, if it were to happen.
 
Dave, thanks for response. I presume your comment means Van's must offer the change (as I suspected), but has not as yet (and maybe won't)? I know they are busy what with the new RV14 and other things, but perhaps a conversion kit for us "oldtimers" (2 yrs flying @135hrs) who would like to switch would be very nice?
Dick Seiders
 
Conversion of RV-12

Dick, I think the true answer depends on how your bird was certified. If as an LSA, the factory will have to issue all instructions and modifications. An Exp AB can do all the mods you want to yourself.
 
Dick, you would need the new black box that Van's has introduced with the SV avionics. This Control Module takes all the wiring connections, applies some magic and hooks up to every electrical system in RV-12. For most of it you would just get the full concersion harnesses that change the connections from the D180 wiring to the SV system. The part that would be incompatible with the Control Module you would have to hook up yourself. As you'd like to keep the old switch panel and fuse arrangment, I believe that would be the only thing you would have to adapt to connect to the Control Module. The electrical diagram should help you to determine what you'd have to do there.
I do not think it would be too hard to do. You should ask yourself if paying all that money for the Control Module and the Conversion Harnesses and then still having a 7" display is what you really want to have though.
 
Not Quite.....

Vern said:
Dick, I think the true answer depends on how your bird was certified. If as an LSA, the factory will have to issue all instructions and modifications. An Exp AB can do all the mods you want to yourself.
Click to expand...

Once an Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft is certificated, you are free to make any modifications you like.

It's only Special Light-Sport Aircraft that require factory approval for mods after certification.
 
Vern, thanks for feedback, but my 12 is an ELSA and I prefer to keep it that way.

Macpara, Thanks. Good point on the size, but I'm flying with a 7" now and it's comfortable.

Suspect as Dave said that it won't happen w/o Van's providing the kit. Guess I'll have to wait?

If there are more out there that would like to convert say so and maybe Van's will figure hey these are loyal pioneers on the 12 maybe we should do this?

Dick Seiders
 
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Vern's post is not applicable since your RV-12 is complete. As either an EAB or an E-LSA you can modify it as you wish. To do what you want to do, you would at LEAST have to do the following. Likely more.

Add the ADAHRS in the back of the plane using the Vans brackets.

Reroute the OAT sensor wiring to the back of the plane to the ADAHRS.

You would NOT "have to" use the AV-5000A box mentioned by MacPara. You would have some individual wiring and creation of harnesses to do. You would have to go wire by wire, pin by pin, it would be a fair amount of figuring out. For example you could retain your existing transponder. But changing to the Dynon transponder has a lot of benefits, particularly if you want to add their new ADSB weather receiver.

You would have to route the pitot connection to the back of the plane ADAHRS by connecting it to the existing static line coming forward and separating out the static line in the back and connecting it to the ADAHRS (like all us Skyview converters had to do.)

You will need at least 4 new twisted wire pairs going from the panel to the ADAHRS and you will have some dead wires to remove.

If you have an autopilot you will not be able to use the AP-74 unit anymore and will have to connect up the AP wires. I hope you installed all the wires at the servo end.

You should sit in front of a 7 inch display end ensure it is legible for you. Early models had fonts that many could not read but I think a software revision fixed that.

This thread will help you understand the process because it is based on the first Skyview "conversion" where the plane had been initially wired and plumbed per the D-180 setup, but without the D-180 avionics yet installed. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82782
 
As Bill described, it would be quite a bit more involved (as far as thinking through wire connections, etc.) than what you had to do to install your current panel equipment, but doable.

My comment would be that I am not sure you would be happy with a single 7" screen. The reason being is that with Skyview, you are displaying EFIS, map, and EMS data all on a single 7" screen, divided into 3 equal parts (when you choose to have all three displayed at once as most pilots do).
This makes each one third segment rather small and crowded (it is a lot of info packed into a small space).

7" screens were initially considered (and tested) as the Skyview upgrade for the RV-12. It was rejected based on the readability factor.

I would suggest you get a demo flight in an airplane equipped with a 7" screen, before you commit.
 
I was told by one of the guys from Stein that the 7" Skyview will not fit in the D180 tray. The S/V is slightly larger dimensionally and not as deep, it would also require re-working the panel and if you use the AP74, you would have a void. It appears a new panel blank might be required.
 
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It should be noted that Mitch Lock ("New Blue") did exactly what you're talking about. Yes, Mitch is a very experienced builder/pilot and a Van's employee so he didn't have much choice...but he did prove that it can be done.

Again, as Mel as repeated, once certificated you are free to make changes like this without any change to your ELSA status.
 
Mitch has a 10" screen, and installed it using the same kit/plans that RV-12 builders who had to switch mid way during their build, used.
 
Appreciate all the comments. I am reading all the info to determine if I could handle the c/o of the components. I am confused by and lack understanding of the complexities involved. For example I believe I have read that the AP74 supplied with the 180 will work with the Skyview, and I have also read that it won't.

Scott, the reason I am not sweating the 7" is that I would only divide it into two panels as my 180 is now so I suspect readability would be ok. I could still view the moving map when I wished to, but would continue to use my Garmin GPS as primary directional/terrain etc. Reasoning is that there is no way I want to have ALL my info in the Skyview as I like separation of critical information in event of failure of a component. I may be wrong on my conclusions on the two part use 7" as I haven't yet seen one, but I am still interested in pursuing the possibility. Sure would like to see Van's offer a kit to do it. I am more than a bit uncomfortable trying it on my own.
Thanks all for the input thus far.
Dick Seiders
 
When you are showing PFD, MAP, and ENGINE on the Skyview the screens are actually 40%, 40%, 20%(Engine). Not 1/3 each. There are plenty of pics of this arrangement on the forum and the internet, for example at Dynonavionics.com. You can also have 100% of any of those three, or 50%-50% of any two of the three.

The AP-74 will not work with the Skyview. The AP-74 is just an OPTIONAL external set of hardwired switches to make it easier to control the AP IF you have a D-180. It has no AP "smarts" in it. The AP functionality is contained in the D-180 and the D-180 interface has full functionality to control all AP features. Van's decided to make the AP-74 a standard part of the RV-12 setup as E-LSA. If you already have an airworthy RV-12 with D-180 and without AP, you could just add the servos and NOT add the AP-74 (~$400).

But the AP-74 does not connect to the Skyview system. All AP functions are controlled using the Skyview HMI plus the one AP-disconnect pushbutton (which, incidentally, can have more than one function in Skyview depending on how you choose to configure that.)

You will find that the 20% size "engine strip" is all you need on the Skyview. I use the 50% on engine startup but then switch to the 20% until post-shutdown (when I write down some time and fuel numbers that are not on that 20% view). Incidentally, the contents of all of the ENGINE view sizes is configurable.

Once you start flying with the nav capabilities of the Skyview plus its nice autopilot integration, you will likely use the Garmin less and less. Particularly, I speculate, as we start getting the Dynon ADSB box displaying weather overlaid on the map (with no subscription).

I wonder if this plethora of new ADSB boxes linking up with Ipads and the avionics themselves is going to make XM drop its weather subscription prices.

Bill H.
 
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Bill_H said:
When you are showing PFD, MAP, and ENGINE on the Skyview the screens are actually 40%, 40%, 20%(Engine). Not 1/3 each..
Click to expand...

You are correct Bill, I should have thought harder about the specifics before writing. The issue still exists though... I think most people would consider the readability to be unacceptable with the screen split three ways.


dick seiders said:
Scott, the reason I am not sweating the 7" is that I would only divide it into two panels as my 180 is now so I suspect readability would be ok. I could still view the moving map when I wished to, but would continue to use my Garmin GPS as primary directional/terrain etc. Reasoning is that there is no way I want to have ALL my info in the Skyview as I like separation of critical information in event of failure of a component. I may be wrong on my conclusions on the two part use 7" as I haven't yet seen one, but I am still interested in pursuing the possibility.
Click to expand...

In that case it would probably be fine but it seems like a whole lot of effort and expense for very little benefit. Seems like about the only thing you would be gaining is synthetic vision.


dick seiders said:
Sure would like to see Van's offer a kit to do it. I am more than a bit uncomfortable trying it on my own.
Click to expand...

In a sense they do,.. but it installs a 10 inch screen.
 
Yeah, I understand his desire to not have to replace all of the perfectly good switches. The 7" seemed to me - the one time I looked at it - to be a "last resort" kind of thing. Given all the work you have to do to install the 7 - it's like "bite the bullet and do 10% more more (cost maybe) for the 10".

Oh yes, you also can add to the to-do list installing a diode on one of the relays in the engine compartment. And a minor revision of the "cigarette lighter wire."
 
The Sirens of Anthemoessa...

...lured sailors to their doom upon the rocks surrounding the island. Dick, I don't know what you saw at OSH that was so compelling to make you want to consider converting the D180 panel to Skyview for this simple VFR airplane. Having seen a conversion in process, it is not something that I would try. For new construction with a clean wiring harness, it will probably be easy, but a conversion; no way.

If you want more EFIS and EMS real estate you may want to consider adding the D100. It is very easy, the right hand D100 panel is still available from Van's and the wiring is just 4 splices. All the talk of the demise and non support for the legacy panel is just rumor, Dynon will no doubt support the 180 series boxes for many years, there must be thousands of them flying. With the D100 on the right you can have flight display and HSI in front of you, engine instruments and fuel computer on the right. Also, this gives you redundancy with battery back up in the D180, D100, and Garmin 496. With a pilot in the right seat you can page the EFIS over there and EMS on the left. No synthethic vision tho' ;) in case you need to decend through clouds to an airport where terrain is a factor.
The legacy dual display:
[url=http://tonytessitore.smugmug.com/RV-12Project/Avionics/10000342_rzKz5G#!i=1751115673&k=MVfwnQk&lb=1&s=A][/URL]
Right now, I don't think I would trade this for a single Skyview in the RV12. The main call of the Sirens to me would be the future added functionality of the Skyview especially in 2020 when ADSB-out will be required. Of course, by that time I will be 80...:p.

Tony
 
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"Having seen a conversion in process, it is not something that I would try. "

Of course, Tony T. is talking about my conversion. N737G. And, of course - Tony is right - he's ALWAYS right. We spent yesterday looking at my "bird's nest."

For you fishermen, you'll understand a bird's nest is the fishing line result of a poor cast with a bait casting reel that didn't have the appropriate "thumb pressure" on the reel as it played out. Hey! - that's why spinning reels were invented! For you non-fishermen - well, as the bumper sticker says - that's why they invented WORK.

I really like spending days lying on my painful back under the panel tracing individual wires and going for the Olympic gold in swearing..... 2016 Olympics - here I come!

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Although I have Skyview, Tony is right - the D-180 / D100 & 496 combo is a WONDERFUL set of avionics!!! As far advanced from any typical used, affordable certified aircraft as a new Mustang is from a Model T. If I already had that setup I wouldn't even think about converting to Skyview insofar as incremental improvement.

Of course, a lot of what we do with our planes is not based on cost-effectiveness, it has to do with "having what we want" - and making a personal expression - and nothing wrong with that! A lot the choice of building your own plane has to do with exactly that and more power to that train of thought! Otherwise we would all have bare-aluminum planes with maybe a few rattle-can stripes on them and no interior. (And nothing wrong with that either, lighter and faster!)

Bill H. N412BR "Sweetie" - Bucket List trip to OSH completed!
 
Hey all I certainly appreciate all the response on this topic. I probably will cave on the seven inch Skyview eventually because it is beginning to sound too steep a hill to climb. I am not ready to quit just yet tho as I am still very interested in the synthetic vision. Yes, Scott, as you said that's about all I would gain well guess what pilgrim that's my primary objective. I am instrument rated, and even tho the 12 is VFR only I would like to shoot approaches using the SV for the pleasure of doing it (and to see how good it is) as well as if you ever need it........etc.

Perhaps I should be looking for a portable Syn Vis to take along if anyone has thought of offering that yet.

Bill, you make a good point about if you want it, ok why not? I'd like to do it tho w/o replacing my entire panel (ie; the 10" Skyview).

Tony, I agree that the 12 has a great setup, and I love it, but no harm in a little improvement.

Several of my flying friends have GRT Avionics, and they tell me that for $1200 GRT will upgrade their equipment to add S.Vision. Too bad Dynon isn't interested in the same very convienient opportunity for it's customers.

Again thanks for the feedback. I think it's a very interesting topic, and I know there are probably others out there who would like the improvement.
Dick Seiders
 
The nice thing about Skyview, at the moment, is that it is the platform that Dynon is investing in for their future. I mentioned in a previous post about all the new goodies they have in the pipeline, including the airport charts, ADS-B stuff, wx overlays etc. And, of course, SynVis.

Needless to say, that is the nature of the wonderful world of electronics that we can all see here and around us everywhere every day. The downside is the fast evolution that makes your toy of today not so glitzy tomorrow, and downright ancient in a few years. Doubtless this same sort of thread will be repeated in a few years when Skyview II makes its grand entrance upon the avionics stage.

My advice to you, Dick, for what it's worth, is that if you want SV - go for the 10 inch screen and forget the 7 inch. You'll always be regretting all the work for a half-way step. And, if you really want that SynVis - then DO IT!

Here's some more advice - also in the FWIW Dept - based upon my experience - just buy the Skyview new install package from Vans. Rip out all (or almost all) of the existing fuselage wiring. You can pull all that stuff out in just a few hours at most. Run the new wires in - pulling them will also be a quick job. Don't worry about converting existing wires, pulling out a few surplus wires, pulling in some new wires, capping some other wires, pinouts on conversion harnesses etc. Your new straight Skyview harnesses will fit much more neatly than using the conversion harnesses, and will have the right wires, of the right length (you wind up with a lot of excess wire that needs to be tied up and found a home for.) I also think Vans should have also pulled some of the wires (like to the ADAHRS location,) out of the ship, instead of leaving them in place and capping. (I'm pulling them out.)

Then take your D-180 components and sell them on ebay or wherever. There are a lot of other airplane types that use it, and many are not candidates for the 10 inch SV conversion. You should get a reasonable amount and it will defray the new SV acquisition cost.

Vans did a great job, and expended a lot of time and effort (causing a lot of builder impatience and exasperation) to create a monumental package of New Install, Conversion from a wired up but not installed D-180 system, or Conversion from an existing D-180 system. They had the builders in mind, bless them, not wanting to say "Rip out all your stuff and start over." But I think it might have been better, faster, cheaper to have done just that. I know - hindsight is 20/20.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
Here's some more advice - also in the FWIW Dept - based upon my experience - just buy the Skyview new install package from Vans. Rip out all (or almost all) of the existing fuselage wiring. You can pull all that stuff out in just a few hours at most. Run the new wires in - pulling them will also be a quick job. Don't worry about converting existing wires, pulling out a few surplus wires, pulling in some new wires, capping some other wires, pinouts on conversion harnesses etc. Your new straight Skyview harnesses will fit much more neatly than using the conversion harnesses, and will have the right wires, of the right length (you wind up with a lot of excess wire that needs to be tied up and found a home for.) I also think Vans should have also pulled some of the wires (like to the ADAHRS location,) out of the ship, instead of leaving them in place and capping. (I'm pulling them out.)

Then take your D-180 components and sell them on ebay or wherever. There are a lot of other airplane types that use it, and many are not candidates for the 10 inch SV conversion. You should get a reasonable amount and it will defray the new SV acquisition cost.

Vans did a great job, and expended a lot of time and effort (causing a lot of builder impatience and exasperation) to create a monumental package of New Install, Conversion from a wired up but not installed D-180 system, or Conversion from an existing D-180 system. They had the builders in mind, bless them, not wanting to say "Rip out all your stuff and start over." But I think it might have been better, faster, cheaper to have done just that. I know - hindsight is 20/20.

Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...

Good advice IMO. I'm half way through a Scenario 4 conversion - partly wired up, no engine, no avionics. I should have taken 15 minutes to cut a few connections and pull the old harnesses out, and then ordered a clean Skyview installation. Might have lost some money on the harnesses, but would have made life much easier. Nevertheless, all credit to Vans for the effort they have made to thoroughly document the conversion process. It would not have been easy.
 
Good Advice but...

NASA515 said:
Here's some more advice - also in the FWIW Dept - based upon my experience - just buy the Skyview new install package from Vans. Rip out all (or almost all) of the existing fuselage wiring. You can pull all that stuff out in just a few hours at most. Run the new wires in - pulling them will also be a quick job. Don't worry about converting existing wires, pulling out a few surplus wires, pulling in some new wires, capping some other wires, pinouts on conversion harnesses etc. Your new straight Skyview harnesses will fit much more neatly than using the conversion harnesses, and will have the right wires, of the right length (you wind up with a lot of excess wire that needs to be tied up and found a home for.) Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...
I have been there and still, against any rational thinking as you do here, I did not want all my efforts in wiring for the old avionics to be trashed. After going through the retrofit and all the extra wires bundled in the tunnel under the control panel, I still feel good because I value my hard work. Plus we have to give Vans some satisfaction for the hard work they did documenting the retrofit. For them, forcing us to redo the wiring was a loose-loose proposal, they know better! :D
 
Thanks Bob, RGMA, and Wingedfrog. I am not certain I understand the differing positions on how to do the wiring, but it's clear the Van's route is the road to take in your opinions. I will talk with Van's to nail down the Conversion Kit availability and cost, and then I will think about the alternatives that are out there such as IPAD/Lewy, Garmin 795, and others. Then I will choose which is best for me, which includes staying with what I have now.
Dick Seiders
 
Larry, I mean't Levil (Lewy-oops). On my recent trip to Oshkosh I had a rider-navigator who used his Ipad. He had moving map on sectionals the whole way. It did not appear to wash out according to the user, and when he showed it to me in flight it looked very readable. The only problem I had with it was when he would adjust it's position relative to the sunlight so he could see it more easily. When doing so he repeatedly flashed the sun's reflection to me in the perifial vision area which became very annoying. I mentioned this fact and he found a way to avoid it. So I would conclude the Ipad is doable in the cockpit.
Dick Seiders
 
Larry. I checked out the Levil Ahars g Mini, and coupled with the WingXpro7 APP may be a solution for my particular objective. For $200 per year, and a $975 investment in the Levil I can get syn. vision and much more. For ex. free weather under ADS-B and with that can stop my XM at $660 per year and get more current weather depiction. Sounds very interesting at any rate.
I like the idea of retaining the Dynon/Garmin equipment supplied with the (older) RV12 as I agree it's a great setup. May take a flyer on WingX as the investment is peanuts compared to a c/o to either Skyview with all that it entails. For starters I may try it on my Iphone as at this point I don't want to ask my wife for her Ipad. Relative to your question about Ipad use in the cockpit if you look around at sites like Ipad/avionics you will find many customer reviews on the use of the Ipad which you will find helpful.
If anyone flying RV12's or other RV's tried the WingX Pro7 with or w/o the Ahars G I would like to hear about your experience with it. Thanks.
Dick Seiders
 
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