S

Steve Sampson

Well Known Member
After just 6 hours of flight testing my RV4 the starter made an awful noise and no longer meshes with the starter gear ring.

Its an O-320, Skytec LS, twin P-mags and an MT prop. I am not aware of any kickback from the engine, and in view of Skytec's positive warranty position with respect to E and P-mags they dont appear to expect a problem either.

There are several pictures here and a longer explanation. I would welcome comments from those that have been here before me. Has anyone had a problem with the teeth of the starter not being close enough to the starter ring?

I am worried if the unit is just replaced that the same thing will happen again after another 6 hours of flying. Its frustrating because I cant start getting things fixed 'til Monday.

[Perhaps since I am English and it happened on 4th July this is something to do with mad King George! :) ]
 
Bent Starter

Even though you never saw a kickback chances are your engine was experiencing one and your starter saw it!

The Skytech starters are designed to yield if the engine has a kickback. The starters are so powerful most times it will power right through the kickback and you willl not see the blade kickback. What happens is the mount will bend and it will look like the gear is not meshing correctly and of coarse then tear up the gear.

The mount is designed to yield, as a safety, to save the engine case and flywheel. It works very well, don't ask how I know this. Starters have been known to break the engine case were it mounts. I would much rather buy or repair a starter then buy a new engine case.

According to Skytech the number one reason for starter failure is electronic ignition.

Bad news. It's not covered under warranty and your warranty is now void. Double check with them for sure. I believe their website evan spells this out pretty clearly. Good news is they will repair yours for a reasonable fee.

If you have removed your starter put a straight edge, at least 12 to 18 inches long, on the mounting surface and sight that to the centerline of the armature. I'd be willing to bet you will see that the mount is no longer parallel to the armature and that is why the gear is not meshing correctly.

Double check your timing and advancing. Something is not correct. I'm not familiar with the E and P mags so I can't help much here. I would be willing to bet something is off.

Good luck and remember, this experience is cheaper then a new engine case.

Ted
 
Follow up

Steve,

Answering your three questions at the end of your link text.

1) Why did this happen (after just 6 hours - perhaps 20 starts.)?
To much advance while cranking.

2) Why will a replacement unit be any better?
Yes it will be better once you fix above.


3) Will Aerosport Power and Skytec get me back in the air quickly or slowly?
Both are great companies and will do their best to take care of you.

Curious, Did Bart install and time the P and E mags?

Ted
 
Call Skytech

I had almost the same thing happen. Broken starter due to kickback, O-360 with one P-mag and one E-mag. I called Skytec told them I had Emag ignitions and they told me to send it back for repairs...no charge. Came back good as new. They even paid the return freight. I was very pleased with their willingness to stand behind the Emag warranty.
 
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Hi Steve,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I wonder if your problems have anything to do with those that Mal Gibson is experiencing? I know that he has a Superior engine, but seems unlikely that there are very many suppliers of ring gears? I doubt that you have had a kick-back during starting. Its almost impossible with P-mags. Perhaps there is a build up of tolerances between Skytec starters (especially LS), ring gears and crank cases that means the level of meshing is becoming only just adequate?

I took a picture of my starter ring (engine built by Aerosport from a Lycoming kit about 2 years ago with only the test running time, using a Skytec LS starter)
starterringow4.th.jpg

It shows some wear on the teeth, and about the same amount of meshing as you have. Your ring gear teeth do seem to have worn a lot. Also, I wonder if you have the chamfer on the back of your gear teeth? I don't know, but seems unlikely that there is more than one standard of starter ring.

Have you lost any teeth from the ring gear, will the starter turn the engine at all now? You are welcome to borrow my starter and or starter ring if it will help - but I have an O-360, I'm assuming part numbers are the same (01252 612461). If its any consolation, changing the ring gear is very straight forward.

Pete
 
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But do they kick back with E-mags?

Thanks for the inputs guys!

Ted, you are certainly correct in that the axis of the motor and the base plate are not parallel. The bit you havn't seen is that Skytec explicitly say they will honour their warrenty with E-mag ignitions products. My understanding is that e & p-mags dont fire before TDC on start up.

You asked about timing. No, Bart didnt do it, I together with my inspector whoes work is GA aircraft, did. (I think he knows where TDC is!) Timeing P-mags is incredibly easy. Put the engine on TDC and blow in a tube to tell it that is where it is. You will find all the details on the E-mag site. The engine runs beautifully, has no over heating issues for a new engine, and happily idles at 600 rpm or even a little less. I guess that is why Skytec make very positive warrenty commits to E-mag aircraft.

I am not convinced this is a kickback issue, though accept it might be though I am unaware of any kickback. I note in Skytec's drawing at D5 there is a dimension of 0.38MAX. Looking at my unit, the base plate is 0.42 although in the corners where the bolts come down it has ground surfaces for the washers to sit on and it reduces to 0.37. If the .038 is controlling the degree of teeth meshing then I can believe the reason for the failure is the teeth managed to push past each other, no kickback, and distort the base plate that way.

Jim, your story is good news for me in one way. But did you ever decide how you had kickback in view of your e&p mags, and are you confident it wont happen again? Why? I find myself wondering if I should replace it with one of Skytec's more expensive units? (The problem with that would be the aircraft is now u/s in a borrowed hangar, not at my home strip, where an aircraft will need to return, where I have no facilities to make up new power cables et..)

Peter, thanks for your time on the phone. The offer of a starter to get me home might yet be an offer I take up. It was very reassuring to have someone to discuss it with. Worrying about it lost me 5 hours sleep last night!

I am left still puzzling why if I bolt the same starter on the front it wont just happen again.
 
Hi Steve,

At the time my starter was damaged I only had about ten hours on the plane/engine and a much earlier software version on the P/E-mags. The kickback occured while I was repeatedly attempting a "hot start". I believe at the time...third or fourth attempt...I had the mixture set at idle cutoff with a lot of fuel in the intake system. Don't know if any of this was the cause of damage or not.

Talking with Brad at Emag much later about other issues I learned that with early software versions it was possible through an odd combination of power and grounding switching to fail the advance reset to TDC. This is no longer possible I am told with newer software.

Bottom line is I don't really know why the damage occured, but I have never had a repeat in the last two years with over 300 starts...many of them hot starts.

One change I made as the result of all of this was to stop using the blow in the tube method of setting the timing but instead use the method described in the manual to use the "native" setting that comes from the factory. Takes a bit longer to do, but no chance of a failure of the ignition losing its initial set point.

Hope some of this helps.
 
I had a problem with a sky-tec starter on our C-90F-12 in our champ. I understand it is a totally different system, but the first starter started making a growling noise after about a dozen starts. They replaced it, and the second one lasted about another six weeks, when a hot start kickback sheared a pin inside the drive. I was thinking about getting a different brand starter, but skytec fixed the second one, and it has worked perfectly for a year and about 100 hours so far.

Good luck, I say give 'em a chance, they may have had a problem with a single unit, and you were the lucky one to get it.

Lance
 
Wrong answer

Ted RV8 said:
Even though you never saw a kickback chances are your engine was experiencing one and your starter saw it!

Bad news. It's not covered under warranty and your warranty is now void. Double check with them for sure. I believe their website evan spells this out pretty clearly. Good news is they will repair yours for a reasonable fee.

Ted
Click to expand...

Ted,

I had a similar problem with my Skytec. They said BECAUSE I had Pmags they would repair it without question.
 
E/Pmags CAN cause kickback

It depends on how you energise the EI's...If you turn on the power before ungrounding the P lead the engine will turn thru 3 reveolutions before firing...This designed to avoid KB.

If you do it the other way round...this is the hand propping mode (yikes!) and the EI's will fire immediately...I can see this could cause KB if you then cranked the starter

Frank
 
COUNT THE TEETH....

COUNT THE TEETH on the ring gear. Then look at the MODEL# on the starter.

The first three numbers of the model # should be the same as the ring gear tooth count. Mine is a cert. lyc. O360 from Van's.

Starter model number 149-XXX. RING gear count = 149 teeth. And the starter has 10 teeth. This is just another thing to look at that could be wrong......
 
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How ironic!
This very same thing has just occured to me also. 70 hrs on the Areosport built engine and less than 100 starts. Went to start it today and had the most god awfull metal to metal grinding sound you would want to hear. It fired right off and ran perfect after the starter disengaged. I shut it down and went into inspection mode. I have found the excact same problems as mentioned above. The gears are just barely engaging each other.
Starter is #149-12LSX, flyweel has 149 teeth. pitch=12/24, serial #F2LX-000529. Areosport built engine, 2 p mags, timed and run by Areosport at factory prior to shipment. I haven't touched it other than putting oil and gas in it. No noticable Kick backs either!
Perhaps Sky tec got some housings that were soft and are stretching?
I will call them in the AM in hopes of getting a Return Authorazation!
doug
 
I guess it is infectious....

dougknight said:
How ironic!

Starter is #149-12LSX, flyweel has 149 teeth. pitch=12/24, serial #F2LX-000529. .....
I will call them in the AM in hopes of getting a Return Authorazation!
doug
Click to expand...

Doug, mine is F2LX-240625. I have no ideas how their numbers run. My engine was put together 11/06.

I hope it is Bart & Sue you are telling about the problem in the morning.


I am not convinced this is a kickback issue, though accept it might be. I note in Skytec's drawing at D5 there is a dimension of 0.38MAX. Looking at my unit, the base plate is 0.42 although in the corners where the bolts come down it has ground surfaces for the washers to sit on and it reduces to 0.37. If the .038 is controlling the degree of teeth meshing then I can believe the reason for the failure is the teeth managed to push past each other, no kickback, and distort the base plate that way. The witness marks on the teeth imply, to me, that the starter never meshed very well. It doesnt mesh now.
 
Steve:
My engine was put together 2/18/05. First flight was 3/16/07. I wasn't even going to contact Areosport, don't figure it was anything they could have prevented nor address as repair nor warranty. Will get ahold of Sky-Tec (notice they have on-line return application on their website).
Don't know the dimension of the base plate at D5 (calipers are at the hanger), However when setting the starter on a flat surface (base plate down and flush) I have a 1/4" difference front(+1/4") to back when measuring from the flat surface to the center axis of the armature within the length of the starter itself. The long straight edge on the base plate, as ted mentioned REALLY makes it show up and was most helpfull!
I probably wouldn't know a kickback if it kicked me in the backside, but I have an interest in the parallel thread going on at this same time and the switch wiring brought to light by scott. I think I may have my mag wires backwards at the switch, thus the non-impulse mag (right) doesn't have the ground jumper. May be the root of my problem and a resolve from "it happening again", since both mags are "p" and this "isn't supposed to happen". I will go to the other thread and see if I can get more clarification from scott.
doug
 
Skytec Kickback?

Hi Steve and all,

I've had the same thing happen and was not happy about it with a new starter. Standard mags, so no warranty. I bought a new starter case/mount from superior air parts in Brisbane and re-built it myself to save time and freight back to the US. I'd say the quickest and cheapest fix would be to get Skytec to supply a new case/mount under warranty and do the repair yourself.

I have now used the re-built Skytec on my TMX-390 for over 50hrs and many startrs without a reocurrence. I make sure I prime well before cold starts as there is less chance of a backfire with a rich mixture.

good luck,
 
Skytec, kickback and e&p-mags / Good support from Aerosport Power!

Grant - thanks for that advice. Yesterday I finally got to speak to Aerosport Power. It is clear they have had a few problems with the LS unit and quickly suggested that it is replaced with the NL model. Right now despite an extra 1.6lbs in the nose, that seems like a very attractive idea. The NL model has a shear pin, plus spare pins, so the future should be just an easy field replacemment of this pin if a future problem. I got the impression Skytec are quite keen on people using the NL.

So good old Aerosport Power. A new NL and tooth ring as a warranty replacement have already made it as far as Memphis according to the FedEx tracking number.

It wont cost me any parts though I am sure some freight will fall to me before the end.

Frank - my understanding of the e&p-mags is different from yours. To quote Brad at E-mag ignitions. With the normal starting proceedure, power on then p-leads on, "Each ignition fires 5 rapid fire strikes beginning at TDC." The 3 turns was designed to stop plastic sumps blowing up when fuel vapour got in. See p.13 of their manual.

I am no wiser as to what happened but I am suspicious that it has nothing to do with kickback and just an weak bracket on the LS staarter unit.

Thanks everybody for the supportive comments and ideas.
 
Steve and All:
Mine is on the way back to sky tec. Cost me $20.00 in freight. It is yet to see if they warranty it or not.

Talked to an A&P today (for what it is worth) He said check out Toyota Auto starters, they have been known to work great on Lycomings!. Any input as to this one? Do they bolt right up? They gonna break the Block if another freak kick back occures??? I dunno, sounds riskey to me but would like to hear from others with experience if possible.
doug
 
Interesting

dougknight said:
Steve and All:
Mine is on the way back to sky tec. Cost me $20.00 in freight. It is yet to see if they warranty it or not.

Talked to an A&P today (for what it is worth) He said check out Toyota Auto starters, they have been known to work great on Lycomings!. Any input as to this one? Do they bolt right up? They gonna break the Block if another freak kick back occures??? I dunno, sounds riskey to me but would like to hear from others with experience if possible.
doug
Click to expand...

Like could one of these get you home if you broke yours miles from home?

What model??

Frank
 
I had a KB early on. May have been due to my setup.

I sent it back expecting to pay. SkyTec asked what I thought had ocurred.
I was honest with them. They fixed it and sent it back with no repair charges.

Great company and great people to deal with.
 
Ted, see post #16 below.

A ring and NL arrived from Aerosport Power on Wednesday and I bolted it on Thursday. Flown 5hrs or so since then. AOK
 
I am having the same issue with my Sky-Tec 149-12LSX model starter. Its currently in the mail back to Sky-Tec to see about replacement or repair.

Are there any potential fit problems if I get an NL model replacement? It looks significantly longer than the LSX (Im not at the airport, so cant do a visual check myself). I have a Lycoming clone IO360-B1B (vertical induction) from Aerosport Power

thanks

erich
 
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Erich, the NL fit onto my O-320 with no problems. It is well clear of everything. My bet is it will be the same with your 360.

The one issue I ran into was that I had used Skytec's reccomended way of wiring the LS. The NL requires you go back to the conventional way.

The starter works fine!
 
Ted:
I expect mine back from sky tec via ups today or tomorrow. They are putting a new housing on it an shipping back to me free of charge. Ken at sky tec said it had experienced a kickback, that it was out of warranty but they were going to repair it no charge anyway.
Spent a couple hours sunday checking wires, ignition switch and timeing. Everything was perfect.
What I believe happend in my case was release of the ignition switch from "start" to "both" at exactly the wrong time as I believed it was starting up. This allowed the right mag to fire when it was at 25% before TDC and thus the kickback.
I believe I will install a toggle switch in series between the starter switch and the right magneto. It will keep it grounded thru the start process (even if I release the key at the wrong time) allowing it to start only on the left mag. Once the engine is running I will only then switch the right mag on and allow it to function.
doug
 
Starter wiring

Hi,

I'm a firm believer in throwing the key-start switch to the doghouse. It is heavy and confusing to wire. A simpler solution is to use two SPST toggle switches, one for each mag. Start on the left, when it's running switch on the right. No problems. Wire another momentary toggle or push button for the starter.

I like it simple.
 
Sky-Tec has examined my LS starter and determined that it was damaged due to kickback. Interesting, since I have dual P-mags (all applicable updates), which are supposed to be immune to kickback. I was having issues that I suspected were ignition related, and recently received a replacement set of P-mags to try, so that may resolve that.

Sky-Tec is willing to repair my LS model under warranty, or will replace it with a new NL for an upgrade charge of $200. Hmmmmm. Anyone with an opinion on this? NL is supposedly a "better" starter, but it irks me to spend another $200 for something that shouldnt have happened in the first place. Grrrrr.

erich
 
Erich, if the green light on your P-mags comes on ONLY when the prop gets to TDC it is hard to believe you did have kick back. I am sure I ddi not. I put the bent bracket down to it not being strong enough when the (eager) motor worked against an engine with excellent compression.

Since the delta in price on Skytec's website is $75 between the LS and NL model I would have thought that is what you should pay. Unless you feel you did do something wrong, it seems to me that the LS model is not fit for purpose.

Good luck.

PS What were your P-mag issues? Mine have run like a charm, but then I only have 11hrs to date.
 
erich weaver said:
Sky-Tec has examined my LS starter and determined that it was damaged due to kickback. Interesting, since I have dual P-mags (all applicable updates), which are supposed to be immune to kickback. I was having issues that I suspected were ignition related, and recently received a replacement set of P-mags to try, so that may resolve that.

Sky-Tec is willing to repair my LS model under warranty, or will replace it with a new NL for an upgrade charge of $200. Hmmmmm. Anyone with an opinion on this? NL is supposedly a "better" starter, but it irks me to spend another $200 for something that shouldnt have happened in the first place. Grrrrr.

erich
Click to expand...

Many of us have "been there, done that". I firmly believe the LS starters are pure junk. Had one on my engine, it lasted less than 30 hours, it's now sitting up on my shelf. Replaced it with a B&C and all is well.

The NL is a much better starter and the one most engine manufacturers are providing now. It does have a different gear ratio than the others (6:1 versus 3:1) (from memory) which is a plus. Given the offer, I would go ahead and upgrade. That's probably the cheapest route even though I still have trouble totally trusting SkyTec at this point.
 
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