NBowers

Active Member
Skybolt innovated and developed Vans RV cowling fasteners in the early 1990s while we constructed our RV4. Actually, we did not invent the fastener, we simply adapted proven technology to a new market. Yes, we did make it better with several features you can see and many you can't. It was through that Vans RV project that I designed (somewhere between Nat Track 20W and 30W) and eventually perfected the US patented (5,795,122) adjustable receptacle. (Since that project was completed, we have been very active at Oshkosh and Sun N Fun meeting face to face with hundreds (thousands?) of builders). This year, Skybolt will establish hands on forums to better interact with the builder. We have teamed with cowling builders Sam and Will James to obtain a wealth of information on cowlings specific to the Vans RV (and other) kit designs. I discovered, by flying our RV4, the first bulging issue that has caught a lot of attention on these forums. Working with James Aircraft, we resolved the bulging issue, not unlike every manufacturer of any type of external panels or cowlings that fly. That includes commercial jets that tend to exceed airspeeds greater than the common RV aircraft. I built internal doublers that were a work of art, but, like Sam James warned me, they would be too pricey to sell to the average builder. So, together, we came up with "Skybeam" as a very lightweight and extremely structural material that is a simple lay-up application. Skybeam is very cost effective and resolves the structural problem for older generation cowlings. Over the years, Skybolt has worked directly with countless builders to successfully develop a fastener kit that is user friendly at a reasonable cost relative to the average RV investment. It will never compete with hinge pricing for obvious reasons.

I have noted quite a bit of discussion on the forum about proper stud lengths. Our kits use the CLoc -2 stud. We have even used -O length studs in some applications (with modifications). The problem with common stud lengths less than -2 is the unique grommet required. 99.9% of every project I have been involved in, the -2 studs work perfectly. Unfortunately, a competitor was distributing -3 studs using (might I suggest copying) our old instructions that were designed for early 1990 fiberglass (tank) cowlings like we used on our RV4. I also noted the resolve while they attempt to re-invent the wheel at a cost to the builder. I find that unfortunate. Notching a standard grommet will work for short studs; unfortunately, they will not meet our strength requirements. The specific Camloc grommet designed for those short studs do not have a flush appearance. Just because it is experimental does not relieve good common sense. Remember, we pride ourselves on airplanes that cruise at 200mph.

Another sad item I noted in pictures of one of the nicest RV7 projects I've seen, are holes drilled off center. Skybolt kits include simple drill templates that would have prevented that.

As far as the movement of the "floating" receptacles (we also make an adjustable SK215-4 that is rigid): In a properly designed cowling (such as a Beech Baron, Cessna 210, Aerostar.....all aircraft that see similar airspeeds as a Vans aircraft), if the float were an issue, those aircraft would never fly. When we talk about 3-4 inches of spacing, they use 8 and 10 inches of spacing. How? Look at the internal structure. When properly installed, a CLoc cowling (using flaoting receptacles) will perform flawlessly.

Finally, the group buy programs. I will yield to our competitor. That is (was) a great marketing tool. While Skybolt will always provide a more up to date kit with extensive hands on experience built into our kits (we simply walk through a door into our own maintenance hangar), it is our goal to actively compete in the very market we developed. Our 2007 kits are completely revised for the new generation cowling that takes into account a balance between structural requirements (hole spacing) and economic flexibility. Skybolt offers several kit versions from complete to a very economical kit that simply does the upper firewall. Every builder has their own idea of a balance between fully functional and economics. We can supply those requirements. Skybolt kits include required fastening hardware for the nose section, and the required drill templates to drill perfect holes. We also provide options for oil doors and other exterior and interior panels utilizing lightweight "Skytanium" fasteners. (The all stainless receptacle option accomplishes nothing but adding weight (and cost) and will not add any notable performance advantage over our standard receptacle).

After reviewing the group buy program, Skybolt 2007 RV Kits were specifically designed for better value while adding fasteners for those applications leaning toward 3 versus 4 inch spacing. Our group buy program is simple: Call us (its on our dime) 1-800-223-1963. Order your kit on your terms for delivery now, next month, or the month after that. Have a question? It?s on our dime and we welcome questions and give answers that are real time, hands on. Through Sun N Fun, we are also including other valuable packages on complete kits! We invite you to review our website, www.skybolt.com for the most up to date kit lists and pricing.

As an active aviator, builder, and designer: know your product, know your source, build the best and be safe.

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt
 
Guys, I just took Mr. Bowers up on his offer. I called the toll free # & I talked to two very accomodating & helpful ladies. I won't spoil the surprise but let's just say I have a smile on my face after dealing with Skybolt. I am not affiliated with them in any manner and this may be a bit premature as I haven't received my parts yet. However, if your in the market, I encourage you to give them a call.
 
NBowers said:
As far as the movement of the "floating" receptacles (we also make an adjustable SK215-4 that is rigid): In a properly designed cowling (such as a Beech Baron, Cessna 210, Aerostar.....all aircraft that see similar airspeeds as a Vans aircraft), if the float were an issue, those aircraft would never fly. When we talk about 3-4 inches of spacing, they use 8 and 10 inches of spacing. How? Look at the internal structure. When properly installed, a CLoc cowling (using flaoting receptacles) will perform flawlessly.

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt

Ned, would you go in more detail about this point? What about the internal structure makes 8-10 inches work? What is this internal structure and why is it not the same on RV's? Cirrus uses 4 camlocs on the horizontal cowl split (and it's a longer cowl too!).. we're suggested to use 12 (since kit contains 24 fasteners)... why? Also, what does "properly installed" refer to?

I'm just not too excited about popping off 50+ fasteners every time I want to take the cowl off.

Thanks!
 
Radomir said:
I'm just not too excited about popping off 50+ fasteners every time I want to take the cowl off.
Would you be excited about taking out the hinge pins every time?

I've been happily flying for 3 years with 46 Skybolts holding my cowl on. They are $ compared to piano hinges, but so very much worth it. I consider them the second best expensive option on my -6.
 
Jeff, I've done it enough times w/ hinges and you know the answer :)

I just haven't been able to get a good answer regarding spacing.. and discrepancy between rv kit vs certified world..
 
Skybolt Group Buy

The Skybolt Group Buy is simple: There is none.

We re-designed our 2007 Kits specifically for new generation cowlings provided by James or Vans. Our previous kits included our Skybeam material that we now offer as an option. We added fastener sets to most kits. I preferred the Skybeam route, but to function in the discount world, we feel compelled to compare fastener counts and leave the material as an option. Skybeam can be added to any kit at any time. In fact, it can be added to the inner structure of a cowling even after the aircraft has flown. The nice thing about current generation cowlings, they are designed to carry fastener loads at 4" spacing. 3.5" spacing is fine, however, 4" works just as fine. The Skybolt 2007 kits assume 3.5" to 4" spacing.

The Skybolt 2007 Vans RV Kits are being placed on our website as we speak. We offer 15% discount to any builder kind enough to call us (on our dime), 1-800-223-1963. When we factor price only, we may be anywhere from a few dollars less to $50 or $60 more (after their 30% discount). If we compare fastener sets, hardare, and some cases, tooling, Skybolt may just be the better value. Part of this value is the hands on experience we create each and every day in our own shop working on our own airplanes. When we send you a set of instructions, they are instructions we wrote. And when you call, remember our name, Skybolt. We stock an enormous inventory of AN-MS-NAS fasteners. Our catalog is posted on our website, www.skybolt.com.

Our group buy is an everyday buy.

Regards,

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt
 
Looks kinda pricey comparatively speaking. I'm happy with my MilSpec purchase and service.

-Jeff
 
Good stuff

Skybolt is offering a deal that people can either do or not do. This is not the place to start bashing them or recommending another company. Do that in another thread.

Regarding spacing, I flew in my neighbors 8 with 4" spacing and observed considerable puckering at cruise speed. I went with 3.5" spacing and don't have any buckling.

From my experience, I wouldn't do any less than 3.5". Installation is obviously more time consuming than the hinge but they look great. Also I can have my cowl off in approximately 2 minutes.

I would definitely do Skybolts again. I would do them down the sides as well.
 
Certified versus Vans RV Cowling

Regarding the question as to why kit plane cowlings bulge with fasteners and certified aircraft do not: All Beech, Cessna, Piper, aircraft have fabricated inner structure riveted adjacent to or in conjunction (as a doubler at the fastener hole itself) with the fastener The Cessna cowls that use a rubber platemount around the firewall use a U channel all the way around the cowling and add to the thickness fastened. This is not practical in the case of an RV cowling. Therefore a doubler adjacent to the fastener line (cowling split) will serve to carry the concentrated load between fasteners. Remember, Vans, and most kit aircraft were designed for hinge and hinge is like a zipper with a constant load bearing along the seem (hinge pin). If we construct an extruded doubler, say along the sides, that doubler can carry the concentrated fastener load, even if the fasteners are 6, 8, or even 10 inches apart.

I built an RV8 cowling that was a previous James cowling constructed as a skin only cowl. In other words, there was no internal structure. All the new generation cowlings have lay-up structure built in. With the older RV8 cowling, I took a 3" metal strip and clamped it along the lower side. I then took a cut strip of plywood 10" wide and 60" long and scribed a line along the contour of the cowling. I then cut along this line, added 3/4" and made a parallel cut thus I had a ? inch wide curved strip of wood that followed the contour of the lower cowl along the side (where the hinge would mount). I then screwed the wood strip to the metal strip. Finally, I shaved and sanded the strip into a curved edge. The finished piece became the tool from which I fabricated a mold to fabricate the finished composite doubler, just like the side double on any C172, or C182 would have in extruded aluminum. The fabricated piece is symmetrical to either side, so I made two parts. With this strip bonded and riveted into place, I had a cowling that only required, say 6? spacing between fasteners. I used 4? anyway, but that was overkill. That cowling has been to Oshkosh 3 times and SunNFun 6 times. As part of our display, I bet I took that cowling off and on 4,000 times and it works perfectly (it never flew because it was a stand display). Point is, the fasteners worked perfectly. Now fabricating doublers requires a small allotment of time, but it resolves any and all bulging issues and looks very professional. (As soon as I figure out how to paste pictures, I?ll do so. The pictures show the doubler I made and the Skybeam.

The RV8 that was mentioned in the forum with 4? spacing that bulged, was probably a pre-new generation re-enforced cowling. Even so, doublers can be added after the aircraft is flown.

The other solution that Skybolt has had in all our previous kits is Skybeam (it is an option in our current kits, as you may or may not need it as we followed the trend towards 3.5 inch spacing). It is the no brainer way to add structure along the firewall, adjacent (forward) to the fastener line, and along the sides, adjacent to the seam.

To comment on floating receptacles, they are designed to float enough to aid in fastener engagement and they work quite well. When the CLoc studs are locked, the assembly is functionally clamped and any cowling movement should be a non-issue once the cowling is completely installed. Having worked on thousands of cowlings (Skybolt manufactured composite Cessna cowlings for 10 years and sold that division), hundreds of STC fastener conversions, I can see no difference in the RV cowling going 180 mph and, say a 210 going 180 mph. All of those cowlings use floating receptacles.

The Camloc and CLoc design have been around for decades with millions of flight hours. What I designed for the RV series follows the best designs I know in certified designs. The secret is the internal load carrying structure and I have described a couple of ways to achieve that. The Sam James cowlings, I know, are specifically designed for load carrying capability via the internal doubler structure that is super lightweight but very strong. James places the material as close to the edge as possible without adding to the overlap thickness.

Keep the questions coming.

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt
 
<<To comment on floating receptacles, they are designed to float enough to aid in fastener engagement and they work quite well.>>

Ned,
Do you feel the float is required for easy fastener engagement? I note that you also sell SK215 non-floating adjustable receptacles.
 
Floating versus Non Floating

Dan: The SK215-4 is a non-floating adjustable version of the SK245-4. The non-floater works great on flat panels or along a line such as the cowling sides. The curve around the firewall really favors a floater. It requires an 1/8 inch less panel overlap than the SK245-4.

I'll say this: The SK215-4 non floating receptacle will do a good job around the entire cowling. The SK245-4 floater does a better job and it is my opinion (I certainly respect all opinions), cowling movement in flight using floating receptacles is a non issue as the float (unlocked) is approximately 1/16 of an inch for and aft and slightly more side to side. When locked, I have not experienced any cowling "shift". I would always use the SK245-4 unless panel overlap is really being squeezed to less than 1" (The cage for the SK245-4 is 1/8 inch wider than the SK215-4). Limited panel overlap should not be the case in any RV cowling installation. I'll gladly substitue the SK215-4 in any of our kits if you desire the non floating route.

Our 2007 Kits now include a top firewall only kit that is a very economical option.

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt
 
Kind of off topic, I'd like to do a kit on our Cessna 177 Cardinal, but was wondering why it was so cheap? (<$100). I would have though it would be about the same as the 172... what exactly does the 177 kit contain? Thanks
 
No Reply

Ned,

You haven't responded to my private email from a couple of days ago. No answers?
 
osxuser said:
Kind of off topic, I'd like to do a kit on our Cessna 177 Cardinal, but was wondering why it was so cheap? (<$100). I would have though it would be about the same as the 172... what exactly does the 177 kit contain? Thanks
OSXUSER
Stephen: I believe you are referring to the simple Southco Replacement Kit for a C177. All Cardinals built were the same configuration. The C172 had several fastener versions. The Skybolt SK203C177P4 converts the C177 cowling to 4000 Series CLoc. I have personally done 12 of these conversions and I know our shop has done many more. We have worked closely with the Cardinal Flyers during SunNFun forums. Unlike the C172, the C177 install is always easy and straight forward. Call us and ask the the dealer discount.
Thanks, Ned Bowers
 
How many camlocs provided in the kit

When I add up your cost of the camloc kit and tools and compare it with the MilSpec group buy, there is about $130 difference (in MilSpecs favor). That is significant. However, if it means I have to deal with significanly fewer camlocs for removal/installation of the cowling, it might be worth it. Ned, I'm a bit confused about a couple of things. First, how many camlocs are included in your RV7 kit as it exists now? Second, does the newer Van's cowling require the Skybeam or not? Third, can you verify that the kit you have listed on your site is for a newer Van's cowling for use without the Skybeam? Finally, if I were to opt for the Skybeam, I've gathered from your previous responses that it would allow me to space the camlocs further apart. Would this reduce the number of camlocs that I would need in a kit, and thus reduce the price of a kit from Skybolt?

BTW, nice response to the group buy. All we really had to go on before was price and MilSpecs %30 discount is significant. Having additional information beyond the prices opened up Skybolt as another option for me. I like options.
 
Tools and Templates

Nate, I noticed on your site that there is a package that contains the two install tools and templates for $99. Elsewhere on your site, there is a package buy of the two tools (w/o templates) for $32. That would imply that the templates cost $67. Question; are the templates included with the camloc kit for the RVs, so we would only have to purchase the $32 tool option, or would we have to purchase the $99 option?
 
Macrafic: The 2007 RV7 Kit includes 53 Sets of Fasteners at $460.86. I did not see the competitor at $160 less with discount. If so, I would buy his kit if all were equal. The Skybolt RV67910-C1P includes hardware for the nose section. It includes the required templates to drill perfectly centered holes and to expand the receptacle center hole without the drill bit walking. The 53 sets allows for 3.5 inch spacing. Your question about Skybeam is very good, but to be honest, is harder to answer. For us to compete on fastener count, we removed the Skybeam and made it an option, thus decreasing our recommended spacing from 4" to 3.5", adding sets to most kits. If you use a Sam James cowling, I am certain that the matting is placed as close to the fastener line as possible and Skybeam is not required. That is why I made it optional. If you have a Vans cowling, it may require the additional buildup of structural material, Skybeam to carry the load. It is realy your choice on how you want to accomplish the goal. My goal is that you have a grand champion airplane. I can build a grand champion airplane with CLocs spaced 4 inches apart. If I use the James cowling, I will use 4 inches and no Skybeam. All in all, it is really a slight economical decision. I can tell you that opting for and using the Skybeam layup will insure no bulging and is small dollars relative the the entire project. But please understand, I am also trying to compete price wise. I value the Vans business as much as Airbus'. The competitor offered a solution to bulging by reducing fastener spacing. Heck, if 3.5 is a solution, imagine what 2 inches will do. Where does the nonsense stop?
The $99 SK4002-TS1 includes pliers, retainer tool, drill templates, and the recommended Unibit tools (2 ea). I must research the $32 tool package and what it is for. If you call us on our dime 1-800-223-1963 (ask for me, April, or Debra) we will explain the additional promotional items in our kits that, according to my calculations, we are $17.33 above the competitor. However, I believe we may have a couple of extra sets than they along with some options and advice I believe makes the price comparison as competitive as we can be.
However you chose, keep those grand champions coming. Skybolt wishes to be a part of that.
Thanks,

Ned Bowers,
Skybolt