Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
Well, I guess that you should expect to have a LITTLE bit of repair work on your airplane at 800 hours?.

I was under the Belly of the Valkyrie a week ago, and noticed some very small cracks emanating from the belly skin under the floor (just behind the main gear mounts). This is behind the exhaust ?ramp? that people have reported as crack-prone before. Upon further examination, I found several rivets that join the span wise z-brace to the skin were beginning to pull through, and I could just barely move the skin up and down a bit. I was reminded of the fact that I had seemed to feel a bit more vibration under my feet the last few flying hours ? and this was probably the cause. A little thrumming under foot that grows very gradually can be easy to miss. I repaired the pulled-through rivets with a line of Cherry?s, and stop drilled the little cracks. A touch of red paint hid the repairs from all but me, and I?ll look at them every couple hours to make sure nothing spreads.

My exhaust system is the stock Vetterman that van?s sells, and the pipes go straight back. I have them adjusted so they are about halfway between the skin and the bottom of the cowl, and hadn?t really thought about any potential problems, despite seeing turn-down tips on many older RV?s. I gave Larry Vetterman a call, and told him what I?d found, and he said that he?d through a pair of slip-on tips to LOE for me, and we?d install them there ? he was very aware of the phenomenon, and was pretty sure the tips would be the answer.

Sure enough, I?d barely even shut the plane down at Santa Theresa when up came Larry in a golf cart, brandishing two exhaust tips and a pair of hose clamps. Two minutes later, the install was finished, and a test flight the next day was smooth and quiet. I?m pretty convinced by the noticeable change in vibration levels that the 8?s probably need these tips from the start ? I?d sure put them on if I were doing it again.
 
Exhaust

I think the Vetterman exhaust comes standard that way now. I bought mine from Van's about two years ago and they have the turned down tips.

Ted
 
Paul
I have talked to Larry about this also.
When I installed the exhaust on the RV8's, I've noticed you can position the lower pipes 2 different ways and have the same cowl/firewall/pipe clearance.
The first way and more aestheticly pleasing way is to parallel the longitudinal centerline, and parallel the exit ramp. I've seen many done this way.
The other way (and the way I have done it 3 times now), is to rotate the pipes so that they angle in towards each other,and they will also then angle more towards the ground, or away from the the exit ramp. We just spent yesterday re-doing a friends exhaust pipes this way and he noticed a significant decrease in floor vibration afterwards.

I had the turndowns Larry had sent me and we were going to try them, but my friends exhaust was an earlier model with smaller pipes and the turn downs were to big. So we rehung the pipes.

On my airplanes, I pull the hinge pin for the exit ramp and put 3/4 in foam in the 2 bays separated by a horizontal stiffener angle. I think this is also contributing to my low floor vibration levels. Thats why I haven't felt the need to use the turn downs.

Putting the turn downs on is probably easier than re-hanging an exhaust, but if folks haven't hung their exhaust yet they may want to experiment with the geometry this way.

Also my pipes are probably 3/4 in. from the cowl at the exit, I have no cowl protective film here and am suffering no heat damage at all.
 
Great comments and good information Jon!

I figured I was just fine with the configuration I had - hey, it went 750+ hours before developing an issue, and quite frankly, that is a LOT more hours than most guys have put on their planes (I figure I am doing accelerated life testing for the fleet....).

Yes, Larry and I talked about putting the pipes on differently as well - I figures this was a quick and easy fix, and I'll try it for awhile.

Paul
 
Jon, can you provide more info

On my airplanes, I pull the hinge pin for the exit ramp and put 3/4 in foam in the 2 bays separated by a horizontal stiffener angle. I think this is also contributing to my low floor vibration levels. Thats why I haven't felt the need to use the turn downs.

Getting real close to riveting on the cooling air ramp and outside forward fuselage skins. What kind of foam did you use? Is your foam under the cooling air ramp? or under the 850/851 bottom skins?

Thanks in advance for this very useful info.
 
Bud
On my quick build 8 fuselage, the aft part of the cooling ramp is attatched via a piano hinge. The quick builders left the hinge pin long with a 90 deg. bend at the outboard end. I can pull that pin out and the cooling ramp hinges/flexes down. The cooling ramp has a stiffener riveted across it. This forms 2 sections that I place the foam on. The forward piece could be tapered as it gets to the firewall but I just wedged it in there. The foam is from Orndorff, black, about 3/4 in. thick, pretty dense.
Probably any foam will work though.
Good Luck,
 
FWIW, I bought the 4 pipe system direct from Larry about a month ago. I asked about a downward deflector on each pipe and he said it is not needed. The pipes already have the proper down angle built into them.
 
Is this a problem with -7 & -9's as well as the -8?

If this is a problem common to the -7 & -9's, I wonder if I would have this probem with my low powered -9...
 
Is this a problem with -7 & -9's as well as the -8?

If this is a problem common to the -7 & -9's, I wonder if I would have this probem with my low powered -9...

I can't tell you if it is a problem with the side-by-sides, but I can tell you that that part of the fuselage is built very different on the -8's, so that's why I posted this in the -8 Forum - I don't necessarily think that it applies.

Paul
 
so that's why I posted this in the -8 Forum - I don't necessarily think that it applies.

Off topic...............

But I always read postings as "Today's Posts". I never go to specific forums. Therefor, I don't realize that a posting is meant for a specific model, etc.

L.Adamson
 
Forums

Off topic...............

But I always read postings as "Today's Posts". I never go to specific forums. Therefor, I don't realize that a posting is meant for a specific model, etc.

L.Adamson

Thread drift here. I Always do the same thing "Todays Posts" but I always look to the right side to see which forum it was posted in before I give an RV-8 answer to an RV-4-6-7-9-10-12 problem
 
I concur - "Today's Posts" it is....but I (like Mannan) check to see where the relevancy lies...

Paul
 
Well, I guess that you should expect to have a LITTLE bit of repair work on your airplane at 800 hours?.

I was under the Belly of the Valkyrie a week ago, and noticed some very small cracks emanating from the belly skin under the floor (just behind the main gear mounts). This is behind the exhaust ?ramp? that people have reported as crack-prone before. Upon further examination, I found several rivets that join the span wise z-brace to the skin were beginning to pull through, and I could just barely move the skin up and down a bit...

Hey Paul,

How about some pictures? I've got turned down tips but want to keep an eye on it. Please post some pictures so I know where your problem is.

Thanks, Karl
 
<<stainless cooling ramp>>

Yes, but I think Paul's problem is aft of the ramp, and I'm still gonna use an exhaust with a significant downturn.
 
Another datapoint

Paul
I have talked to Larry about this also.
When I installed the exhaust on the RV8's, I've noticed you can position the lower pipes 2 different ways and have the same cowl/firewall/pipe clearance.
The first way and more aestheticly pleasing way is to parallel the longitudinal centerline, and parallel the exit ramp. I've seen many done this way.
The other way (and the way I have done it 3 times now), is to rotate the pipes so that they angle in towards each other,and they will also then angle more towards the ground, or away from the the exit ramp. We just spent yesterday re-doing a friends exhaust pipes this way and he noticed a significant decrease in floor vibration afterwards.

I had the turndowns Larry had sent me and we were going to try them, but my friends exhaust was an earlier model with smaller pipes and the turn downs were to big. So we rehung the pipes.

On my airplanes, I pull the hinge pin for the exit ramp and put 3/4 in foam in the 2 bays separated by a horizontal stiffener angle. I think this is also contributing to my low floor vibration levels. Thats why I haven't felt the need to use the turn downs.

Putting the turn downs on is probably easier than re-hanging an exhaust, but if folks haven't hung their exhaust yet they may want to experiment with the geometry this way.

Also my pipes are probably 3/4 in. from the cowl at the exit, I have no cowl protective film here and am suffering no heat damage at all.

I originally installed my pipes pointing inward as well, to provide more clearance with a fuel line going to the servo. However, after encountering some exhaust residue at the slip joints I called Larry. He told me that he thought pointing the pipes towards each other could create exhaust backprsesure and suggested that I rotate them so the tips are parellel with the fuselage.

Additionally, I suspect (but can't confirm) that installing the pipes with the tips pointing towards each other could cause some turbulence in the cowl exit air flow, which may impact engine cooling. Pointing the pipes towards each other definitely reduces the cowl exit area, at least on my installation.

I have pictures of all of this (pipes pointing inward, pipes pointing parallel to the fuselage, and the turndowns) here: http://rv8.gwevans.net. Click on the link to "Phase Two - Flying and Maintaining".

Just another data point, and an illustration that in homebuilt airplanes there is often more than one "right" answer. Do whatever works in your own installation.
 
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<<stainless cooling ramp>>

Yes, but I think Paul's problem is aft of the ramp, and I'm still gonna use an exhaust with a significant downturn.

Absolutely Dan - I think folks may be cofusing the two areas as this thread lengthens....my ramp is AOK (at least for now), and I hope that the downturns will help keep it that way!

Paul
 
Cracks

I view cracking in the ramp/skin aft of the ramp as symptoms of the same issue, which seems to be vibration as a result of exhaust pulses on the belly.

I'm working on the fuselage now, so if there are changes to either the ramp or belly skin areas to consider I'd like to hear about them.

The exhaust design/downturn tips, etc. may make this a non-issue, but this discussion has been useful.

Thanks,
Mike
 
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Looks like the design of the ramp panel has been changed; bent flange along the edge. My QB came with a riveted angle there. Yours is a recent kit? As I recall, the old problem was cracking at the end rivet in the transverse stiffener. The change moves the end rivet closer to the edge reinforcement, which might help.

BTW, gotta be careful about adding stiffeners to an open panel where the end of the stiffener doesn't connect to firm structure. Sometimes they do indeed just concentrate stress at the last rivet in the stiffener.
 
Looks like the design of the ramp panel has been changed; bent flange along the edge. My QB came with a riveted angle there. Yours is a recent kit? As I recall, the old problem was cracking at the end rivet in the transverse stiffener. The change moves the end rivet closer to the edge reinforcement, which might help.

BTW, gotta be careful about adding stiffeners to an open panel where the end of the stiffener doesn't connect to firm structure. Sometimes they do indeed just concentrate stress at the last rivet in the stiffener.

Thanks Dan,
Yes, this is a -1 kit. I am still debating adding RTV below the stiffeners to make a connection with the floor, but am not sure that I want to transmit the vibration from the ramp to the floor through the RTV.
I was also toying with running the change through an FEA dynamics pass, but I would probably just be over-thinking it then. I will watch out for cracks on the end.
Chris
 
Cracks

BTW, gotta be careful about adding stiffeners to an open panel where the end of the stiffener doesn't connect to firm structure. Sometimes they do indeed just concentrate stress at the last rivet in the stiffener.

Dan is correct here. I learned the hard way. I put a stiffener stringer in the bottom fuselage aft of the bellcrank bay and didn't connect the ends to both bulkheads and ended up with stress cracks at both end rivets.

Had to patch with .032 alum. triangles at both ends tying the stringer to the bulkheads.
 
Dan is correct here. I learned the hard way. I put a stiffener stringer in the bottom fuselage aft of the bellcrank bay and didn't connect the ends to both bulkheads and ended up with stress cracks at both end rivets.

Had to patch with .032 alum. triangles at both ends tying the stringer to the bulkheads.

Hmm...Sounds like I should be getting out the drill and rethinking my stiffener config.

Thanks,
Chris
 
Pictures

I have spent some time looking through all of these posts concerning the turned down pipes that are installed that keep the ramp from cracking and vibrating. Does anybody have any pictures of their system (down pipes) that have worked? Are the pipes turned down 90 degrees, 60 degrees? Has anybody cut the pipes at 45 degrees or are they cut straight? How far behind the cowl are they and how much into the slip stream are they? How about the ones that are turned in towards each other? You know the saying (especially since I haven't been able to find any posted), a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks. Dave
 
Thx

Thanks Carl. I had seen that before, but couldn't find it again. Take care. Dave