Michael Burbidge

Michael Burbidge

Well Known Member
I took a builders class and they taught in the class that when setting rivets, choose the method for setting in the following priority, c-frame, back-rivet, squeeze, shoot.

I try to follow this advice except for when I can choose between shooting or squeezing. I find that I have much more control and better results shooting over squeezing. It is not supposed to be that way. But I find it very difficult to avoid bending rivets over when squeezing, particularly if the rivet is at all long.

I just bought a pneumatic squeezer with the hopes that it would be easier to squeeze rivets, without bending them, or having them tip a bit. But I'm a bit disappointed. I still find it much easier to shoot a rivet cleanly. I'm wishing I would have spend my money on another size titanium bucking bar, rather than the new squeezer.

Maybe I need some lessons. What are others experience?
 
I find shooting much easier than squeezing with a hand squeezer. I was contemplating buying a pneumatic squeezer, but since you've posted, I'm not so keen.

I find that squeezing a rivet runs the risk of the countersunk head rising up in the countersink and locking there as the rivet expands and engages with the hole diameter. Then it's time for the drill... arrgghh!!

A tungsten bucking bar and a non-swivel head I have found produces some impressive results when a little masking tape holds the rivet in place (and provides a little friction to stop the mushroom slipping)

A
 
Go with what you're most comfortable with and that which gives you the best results. If you're going to squeeze a rivet (I use a pneumatic), ensure the tail is centered on the die before you apply pressure. When I've gotten in a hurry and the sqeezer wasn't centered, I'd just end-up bending the rivet over! (Gives me an opportunity to practice my rivet removal skills.)

Learn the different ways but use what works best.
 
C-frame not so much for me

I built a whole airplane without using a C-frame to smash one single rivet. I tried a couple of times, but there just seemed to be easier ways. I would rank my preferenece as back riveting, squeezer, buck n shoot. The trick using a squeezer is to apply some downward pressure to the manufactured head of the rivet with the yoke while you begin the squeeze. The advantage to squeezing is speed. Every now and then you'll put in a bad rivet and you'll need to drill it out, which is simply another skill of sheet metal work you'll learn. Luckily, there'll be many opportunities for practice...
 
You just need more practice with the Pneumatic squeezer to get comfortable with it. You have to be square on the rivet. Don't hold the squeezer real tight and install a few rivets in some scrap. You will feel the squeezer tilt one way or the other if you are not at a right angle with the rivet. The squeezer will try to align itself. Also press the trigger slowly until the ram touches the rivet then making sure you are aligned then press the trigger on down. I have had great success with mine, but I found there are places where shooting works better and one of them is on trailing edges on moving surfaces. I got straighter edges on my flaps and ailerons by using a back rivet plate instead of squeezing them. Once you get the feel for the Pneumatic squeezer to quote Charlton Heston, They will have to pry it from your "cold dead hands".
Good luck!
 
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Gator Aid

I suspect your problem is related to technique or possibly improperly set-up, maybe even defective equipment. I've never used a C-frame to set rivets so I can't comment on that technique.

Opinions vary widely and it is pointless to issue blanket statements on the matter because no two builders possess or have access to the exact same tools. Some high profile builders have insisted that a "C" squeeze is preferable and has greater utility than an alligator type squeezer. I submit that notion is misinformed and not based on practical experience using both types of squeezers.

So for me, my favorite method by far is using a (deep throat) pneumatic alligator squeezer. Mine is capable of setting AD6 rivets yet has enough finesse to set AD3 rivets. I know most builders never even saw one, yet not counting the exterior rivets on the skins has set at least 75% of the remaining rivets in my RV's. I completely built and finished the RV8 empennage kit in 3 weeks in no small part by using it to dimple holes and set rivets. That is no idle boast or exaggeration and here is a short video link that demonstrates just how fast dimpling operations were conducted on the empennage kit using the alligator squeezer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR2giHt2Mi0

Next in personal preference is using a pneumatic "C" squeezer, then hand squeezer and finally, shooting rivets with a standard rivet gun.
 
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Huh? Unless we're suffering mismatched vocabulary, recommending as a first choice bashing rivets in a C-frame is - bluntly - ridiculous. First, hardly anything you'll be assembling will fit into the frame. Then there's the problem of controlling the whack, not just your hammer, but also stabilizing the workpiece. Muy, muy importante. Clamp your work firmly as possible to hold it steady while you concentrate on riveting.

Use what works for you and for access, the latter point means 90% of an RV has to be shot, so you'll get good. Tipped rivets are very common with a squeezer. What helps alleviate that is using the stiffest yoke possible, and being very careful to align the ram/set faces along the rivet center line. This is where a hand squeezer shines because the long fixed handle provides a nice visual guide for alignment.

John Siebold
Boise, ID
 
as a newbie builder.....

I absolutely prefer the squeezer. I bought the pneumatic squeezer and use it for everything I can. Like Rick, it is all about the technique. It is so much faster once you get the hang of it. You can have my c-frame, used it to dimple one skin, absolutely hated the thing. Bought the DRDT-2, what an awesome difference that is as well.
 
Andy_RR said:
A tungsten bucking bar and a non-swivel head I have found produces some impressive results when a little masking tape holds the rivet in place (and provides a little friction to stop the mushroom slipping)

A
Click to expand...


The fixed set really performs well on curved surfaces, such as the canopy.
After using it for a while now I prefer it to the swivel. I let beginners use the swivel; it is more forgiving but will have a tendency to allow the metal to bend away from the web. This can be noticed as a mark on top to the skin parallel to where the web is.
if i can get the sqeezer on it thats what i use.
I find the pneumatic squeezer does really well up -7 rivet after that all bets are off on clenching. rarely use the hand squeezer.
 
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When I first started my project 2 years ago I really preferred the squeezer. It was fast and easy...but when I was over 1/2 way done with my empennage, I stood back and thought how crappy a lot of my rivets looked. I asked for some opinions (with pictures) here on VAF and found that I had a lot of tipped (or clubbed) shop heads.

I thought it was my hand squeezer, so I ordered a better one. While I waited for it to show up, I drilled out all the bad rivets on my emp. and bucked the new ones. They turned out perfect! I found a new respect for bucking. It's not as fast, but in my case, I get a nice shophead all the time, versus some of the time with the squeezer.

When I got the new squeezer, my rivets were turning out better, but I found that you have to hold the squeezer perfectly for the rivets not to tip. Oddly enough, I've noticed that when I squeeze right handed, they turn out good, left handed not so good.

Never bucked a single rivet with the C-frame, either...only ever used it for dimpling.
 
Squeezer

As previous posters mentioned it is important to have the squeezer square with the manufactured head to keep the shop end concentric.

This has worked well for me when using a squeezer; place a small length (about ??) of polyurethane tubing on the extended shop side of the rivet. The tubing acts as a spring forcing the sheets tight and squaring the dies prior to the die contacting the shop end.

The photo attached is not the best example but illustrates the principle.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/7154/dsc00969rm0.jpg
 
What? You can drive rivets in the "C" frame?:)

I second Jim Wright's post.

Also, when I did the back of the tanks, I had the problem you describe with the rivets not ending up flush when using the squeezer. My CP 214was well used when I acquired it and eventually it would not squeeze smoothly--squeeze the trigger slowly and after a bit it would jump to the fully closed position. Sent to Avery who repaired it for $35 and it works just fine, now.

Lastly, FWIW we have a local guy, a retired A&P who has build about 5 RV's and he doesn't own a squeezer. Drives 'em all.
 
tubing

dpansier said:
...
This has worked well for me when using a squeezer; place a small length (about ??) of polyurethane tubing on the extended shop side of the rivet. The tubing acts as a spring forcing the sheets tight and squaring the dies prior to the die contacting the shop end.

The photo attached is not the best example but illustrates the principle.

dsc00969rm0.jpg
Click to expand...
Very cool tip - thanks!
 
Oh, shoot

Mike B. writes...But I find it very difficult to avoid bending rivets over when squeezing, particularly if the rivet is at all long.

This describes my experience with the squeezer precisely.

I've had much better luck shooting, and (although I might be wrong) it does seem that the rivet joints are a little tighter when set with the gun.

Shooting and bucking also seems more satisfying, somehow. But I do have to be careful not to overdrive.
 
RScott said:
What? You can drive rivets in the "C" frame?:)
Click to expand...

My Avery C-frame came with a long shaft that is tapered to fit into a rivet gun. You put the shaft into the C-frame, set the gun on top of the shaft, and use it for backriveting. It works great for things like attaching the stiffeners to the firewall or building the tunnel cover that goes between the seats in the side-by-side RVs. I've done several hundred rivets this way and haven't had to drill out any of them.
 
Light weight yoke...

Thanks for all the replies. I've been able to relatively easily acquire the skills needed to get most of the way through the empennage, except for squeezing rivets. One thing someone said, is that it is important to have a stiff yoke when squeezing rivets.

I'm wondering if my problem is my yoke. I'm using the "Lightweight" yoke that came with my "Main squeeze" hand squeezer from Cleaveland. In their catalog it is listed under the pneumatic yokes section.

I just can't figure out why I can't squeeze at least one rivet without tipping it. You'd think I'd be able to get one good squeeze by accident.

I'd like to get this figured out. I guess I'm going to have to get a more experienced builder to show me the ropes.
 
Which rivets are giving you fits? If it's the 4s on the spars, a three inch yoke, especially "light weight" is problematic. Squeeze a 4-4 flat head and watch the yoke. You'll see it spring open from the pressure. This slight change in angle can mess you up. It's even more treacherous on round heads which is mostly what you dealing with on the emp. Shoot those suckers. Get a 1 1/2" yoke and use that for 4s. If it won't reach, shoot. The 3s used to close the skins will sometimes tip some. Don't be too critical and drill out rivets that are a tiny bit off. The second rivet stands even less chance of being straight.

Use a bucking bar that has square, mutually orthogonal faces. It's easier to judge when you have it perpendicular to the rivet.

John Siebold
 
[email protected] said:
Thanks for all the replies. I've been able to relatively easily acquire the skills needed to get most of the way through the empennage, except for squeezing rivets. One thing someone said, is that it is important to have a stiff yoke when squeezing rivets.

I'm wondering if my problem is my yoke. I'm using the "Lightweight" yoke that came with my "Main squeeze" hand squeezer from Cleaveland. In their catalog it is listed under the pneumatic yokes section.

I just can't figure out why I can't squeeze at least one rivet without tipping it. You'd think I'd be able to get one good squeeze by accident.

I'd like to get this figured out. I guess I'm going to have to get a more experienced builder to show me the ropes.
Click to expand...


I've never had a problem squeezing rivets, especially -3s, and it's my preference if I have access for the yoke. Are you sure the sets remain parallel when you actuate the squeezer. The light weight yoke may be too flexible.

Jim Sharkey
 
My first hand squeezer was from ATS... piece of junk. Handle broke after a dozen rivets and rivets bent over all the time. ATS was very good about sending me a replacement handle, but I still wasn't happy with the way I was setting rivets with it. Later I got a "Main Squeeze" from Cleaveland. More money, almost to the point of justifying a pnumatic, but worth every penny. It's a joy to use, lightweight, and requires much less muscle to squeeze. Now, instead of being hard to set a good rivet, it's hard to set a bad rivet.
 
I've never tried a C-frame for driving rivets, I just don't see how useful that would be for the majority of the work involved, due to limited access. I've learned through trial and error (mostly error) to buck and shoot very well, a tungsten bar turned out to be the magic wand for me. I'll gunfight the first person who tries to take away my pneumatic squeezer - using that thing is pure magic. The trick is to use the fully open squeezer to maintain light pressure on the factory head to keep the rivet from backing out of the hole, then "tease" the trigger to get the ram to slowly close up on the rivet while making sure you are square to it, and then open 'er up and bend metal. Practice makes perfect, and I can absolutely sail through a line of rivets with it now. Being able to set the depth and maintain it for all the rivets is terrific.
 
Squeezer Notes

As the variety of personal experiences offered in this thread suggest....success in setting rivets can depend upon the QUALITY of the tools the builder is using. There are uncounted sizes and shapes of squeezer yokes out there. Many used yokes that are resold have been modified. For example and for illustrative purposes, the picture shows two types of squeezer yokes in my collection. Note the size and shape of the 2 yokes. Unless reinforced with extra material, the deeper the throat the more easy it is for the yoke to bend under pressure. The yoke on the right (modified) is only marginally acceptable when hand squeezing AD3 rivets. No question, some yokes will bend or distort under pressure and that can wreak havoc when you tryng to produce a quality shop head. My point is you must take it with a grain of salt when someone asserts they have better luck shooting rather than squeezing rivets. That may well be the case in their experience but you really don't know what equipment they were using that produced undesirable results. With proper equipment, set up and operated correctly, squeezing rivets is FAR more efficient than setting rivets with any rivet gun any day of the week.

2dtqjcx.jpg
 
Agreed.

In my very limited experient, that yoke on the right can be useful for setting rivets where you can't get a bucking bar.
 
I like shooting rivets, almost my whole empenage is shoot and buck if I was doing it. I have a friend who helped build some, and he prefers squeezing. If you like shoot and buck, then do it.
 
lightweight yoke

I bent over most of first #4 rivets when I started building. Talking with another builder I mentioned the amount of flex the 3" Cleaveland yoke had. He said those things don't flex. Mine sure did. I checked the packing slip from Cleaveland, and found they shipped me the lightweight yoke. At the time their website didn't mention it. I talked to Mike and he sent the standard yoke out that day. Works a bunch better. I started my project drilling out about 50 rivets. While waiting for the standard yoke I found how easy it is to buck and shoot.
 
Cleaveland sending me the heavier duty yoke...

I called Cleaveland yesterday and they said that they've had some trouble with the light-weight yoke. They sent me the regular yoke the same day. I'm anxious to try it.
 
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