bkc3921

bkc3921

Well Known Member
I'm a little confused....If Van's made the parts...and Van's determined that the parts are defective and unsafe (hence the mandatory recall)...then why is Van's not footing the bill for this??...I don't mind putting in the labor to change it..but that does not help with the parts cost. This is different than a "warranty" issue....yes, we all signed a license agreement that states no warranty is implied..but this seems to be a different issue. Could some legal eagle out there help me understand why the customer is responsible for this? When they did the rudder recall a few back, they supplied the parts..we just had to build the new one...:confused:
 
bkc3921 said:
I'm a little confused....If Van's made the parts...and Van's determined that the parts are defective and unsafe (hence the mandatory recall)...then why is Van's not footing the bill for this??...I don't mind putting in the labor to change it..but that does not help with the parts cost. This is different than a "warranty" issue....yes, we all signed a license agreement that states no warranty is implied..but this seems to be a different issue. Could some legal eagle out there help me understand why the customer is responsible for this? When they did the rudder recall a few back, they supplied the parts..we just had to build the new one...:confused:
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It's simple......

You add a few thousand bucks to the initial price of the kit, for this sort of thing. Van's doesn't, and hence the very reasonable pricing of kits.

These parts are not exactly what you'd call defective and unsafe, considering many have flown thousands of hours with them; and could probably get thousands of more hours.

This is just one of those stinking liability issues, where we have to protect us from ourselves...... as mentioned by someone else.

Be happy, with what you did get for free!

L.Adamson
 
well not thet it matters but

when i received my finish kit (or which ever one they were in) i asked why didnt i get the new style parts? and was given the, well, uh, these are fine and there isnt any proof the others are better...:rolleyes: what ever, i know i got a raw deal. and really dont appreciate it. my one and only gripe with vans.
 
cytoxin said:
when i received my finish kit (or which ever one they were in) i asked why didnt i get the new style parts? and was given the, well, uh, these are fine and there isnt any proof the others are better...:rolleyes: what ever, i know i got a raw deal. and really dont appreciate it. my one and only gripe with vans.
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As far as I'm concerned; I think the new forks are wimmpy. I believe the new spar/wing attachments are wimmpy, compared to those 60+ bolts that hold the 6's spar together, and the pre-punched everything, without the forced use of jigs, just makes it too easy...

Is the new; better, worse, or just lighter and easier?

Looking at the wheel/bearing setup, I DO think that the "old" way is better.

L.Adamson
 
..I don't have too many gripes about Van's..but this one has to be the worst..I hope they don't decide the wings are crappy!..they will bust my bank..:eek:
Someone posted that I should be happy with what I "got for free" (?)..not sure what that meant, I have a stack of invoices that would choke a horse...:)

Brian Cutler
N433BC Reserved
Firewall Forward..Panel..Cowl..
 
Cost of Aviation

bkc3921 said:
..I don't have too many gripes about Van's..but this one has to be the worst..I hope they don't decide the wings are crappy!..they will bust my bank..:eek:
Someone posted that I should be happy with what I "got for free" (?)..not sure what that meant, I have a stack of invoices that would choke a horse...:)

Brian Cutler
N433BC Reserved
Firewall Forward..Panel..Cowl..
Click to expand...

Buy a certified airplane and see how many of the AD's are paid for by the manufacturor. None. Buy a kit from anyone else and see who pays for a SB (if they even care enough to issue a SB). Besides, in an experimental you are the manufacturor and Van's just sells you parts. You are responible for the aircraft.
 
bkc3921 said:
I'm a little confused....If Van's made the parts...and Van's determined that the parts are defective and unsafe (hence the mandatory recall)...then why is Van's not footing the bill for this??...I don't mind putting in the labor to change it..but that does not help with the parts cost. This is different than a "warranty" issue....yes, we all signed a license agreement that states no warranty is implied..but this seems to be a different issue. Could some legal eagle out there help me understand why the customer is responsible for this? When they did the rudder recall a few back, they supplied the parts..we just had to build the new one...:confused:
Click to expand...

I agree. Although this particular SB doesn't affect me; I think they should have, at the very least, given a discount.
 
bkc3921 said:
then why is Van's not footing the bill for this??
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When the aircraft manufacturer of my plane made me move the nose wheel 18 feet back it cost me 1500.00. You're getting off cheap if your manufacturer only requires you change the fork.
 
If you tried to scratch build a plane from plans only, ( used to be done ) there is no way you could source the materials for the price of the kits. You simply don't have the buying power of Vans. As a result you get the kit with all that work done for free since you get in on Vans "Mother of all Group Buy" discounts. The airframe kit is an incredible bargain.

The company was obviously built on small margins. I would not be surprised if only a small percentage of their profit comes from kits and the bulk from the optional items catalog. I don't want to sound like an ad, but I do try to buy extra stuff from Vans first because I think it helps keep the kit prices where they are, encouraging more to build, etc.

With that perception I don't think it's reasonable to expect Van to pay for SB related stuff. Each entitled to their own opinion. That is mine.
 
.....OOOHH..OUCH...OOWWWW..Uncle, Uncle.....That's the sound of me being beat up by everyone telling me I'm getting off cheap!!. OK, I give up..:D
Thought it might help to vent..but it didn't......Being thrifty, I just don't like paying or the same parts twice....Back to the shop to sulk, tail between my legs...

BC
N433BC Reserved
New Fork..Modified gear Leg soon..:)
 
bkc3921 said:
.....OOOHH..OUCH...OOWWWW..Uncle, Uncle.....That's the sound of me being beat up by everyone telling me I'm getting off cheap!!. OK, I give up..:D
Thought it might help to vent..but it didn't......Being thrifty, I just don't like paying or the same parts twice....Back to the shop to sulk, tail between my legs...

BC
N433BC Reserved
New Fork..Modified gear Leg soon..:)
Click to expand...

I do understand where you're coming from, but you don't have to make the change. You are the aircraft manufacturer, not Van's.

Once you fly your very own RV, nothing else really matters though. So build on don't go out to eat for a little while, that should cover the cost.
 
I don't think any of us will hit on exactly why the factory isn't helping with the cost but here is a likely reason that makes sense to me. In the case of the rudders as mentioned above Van's produces the parts and the cost is the materials and the time for the person operating the CNC's and the machines themselves, along with the folks that make these parts appear at your door. This isn't the case with the taxi gear leg and the fork that attaches to it. These are outsourced items and Van can't control the cost or the schedule on the manufacturing of these parts to mitigate the financial hit. Look on the bright side of this one folks. Because of the reasonable pricing of kits and the parts themselves this isn't something that is going to break the bank or prevent anybody from flying if you choose to accomplish it. If you cut the taxi gear leg yourself your only out about $150 for the fork plus the hardware if you upgrade the wheel pant to the new mounts. This is why we chose Van's to start with isn't it? I commend them on this bold move and also for the pricing that has made this hobby possible for those of us that most likely couldn't afford a new airplane, especially one with this kind of performance. To me the biggest issue was the paint on the fairing, but that's my fault for getting fancy in the first place and then breaking it.

Best,
 
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cost to us?

Vans web site indicates the new fork (WD-630-1) will set us back $154. No listing for the gear leg (U-603-3).

erich
 
Be careful

erich weaver said:
Vans web site indicates the new fork (WD-630-1) will set us back $154. No listing for the gear leg (U-603-3).

erich
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If it were a Beechcraft part it would be $1540.00 :(

Van's is in a very delicate position on this issue. By coming up with an "improvement" some people will conclude that there was a problem. It just takes one ambulance chaser to file suit and mess this up for all of us. One of the reasons that we can afford to have a new, modern airplane at the right price is that we are willing to assume the liabliity. Remember the $100+ grand that you saved by not paying the leftover liability on a new spam can.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I've made the decision to retrofit my 9A along with another 9A with a buddy on the field. I already ordered the 2 forks and I'm looking for a threading die so we can do it ourselves. It just makes good sense in my situation. We fly off alot of grass strips in NE.
 
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Here's a link to a source I found for the 1-1/4" x 16 tpi die (The size was confirmed by an email from Harmon Lange):

Victor Machinery, Brooklyn,NY.

http://www.victornet.com/

Click on: TAPS, DIES, THREADING TOOLS

It's listed in the section: Special Pitch Dies, 1-3/16" and Larger. They sell for $40.10 each.

I have no connection to this company. I just found it googling around on the internet.

Hope this helps,

Mike
 
Try this on for size..

bkc3921 said:
.....OOOHH..OUCH...OOWWWW..Uncle, Uncle.....That's the sound of me being beat up by everyone telling me I'm getting off cheap!!. OK, I give up..:D
Thought it might help to vent..but it didn't......Being thrifty, I just don't like paying or the same parts twice....Back to the shop to sulk, tail between my legs...

BC
N433BC Reserved
New Fork..Modified gear Leg soon..:)
Click to expand...

Earlier this year my Air Tractor wings had to have new lower steel spar caps replaced by the factory for $33,500.00:eek: since they now have an 8000 hour life. Well, I lucked out because the dealer in Ft. Pierce happened to have a set with 3500 hours on them for ONLY $18,500 installed. What a bahgin!! I couldn't resist them....they're on my airplane now...yes....I borrowed the money.....sure wished it cost $154;)

We're lucky in that you do not have to comply with this bulletin and quite a few guys have already told me they're not going to.

Regards,
 
Don't waste your money on a threading die.

I tried to rethread a gear leg and made a 6 foot long die holder. Two guys and lots of cutting oil and it was not possible. We only got an extra two to three threads, not the required inch.
Langair used a thread mill on a CNC machine to do it.

Bruce Reynolds
 
Bruce Reynolds said:
I tried to rethread a gear leg and made a 6 foot long die holder. Two guys and lots of cutting oil and it was not possible. We only got an extra two to three threads, not the required inch.
Langair used a thread mill on a CNC machine to do it.

Bruce Reynolds
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And as a former tool and die maker, I suspect you know of which you speak.:)

Thanks for the heads up, I am sending the unit to Oregon in February when we can't fly around here anyhow.
 
cost update

Talked to Vans this morning, Dale told me the cost for Langair to modify your existing gear leg is $75. So, fork = $154, gear leg mod is $75, total = $229.

You do not have to change out the wheel pant brackets to the new style, the old ones will work just fine, but the new ones do allow easier removal of the wheel pant. The new brackets are $14.65 each

erich
 
B747 gear leg?

John Clark said:
If it were a Beechcraft part it would be $1540.00 :(

Van's is in a very delicate position on this issue. By coming up with an "improvement" some people will conclude that there was a problem. It just takes one ambulance chaser to file suit and mess this up for all of us. One of the reasons that we can afford to have a new, modern airplane at the right price is that we are willing to assume the liabliity. Remember the $100+ grand that you saved by not paying the leftover liability on a new spam can.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

...and what would it be if it were a B747? Sorry...

Jerry
 
In spite of what people say, there is a problem with the -A model. That statement out of the way (i know not all agree, but come on...) I feel that it's time to point out the obvious, you are flying an experimental!

There is NO requirement for you to change the nosewheel setup in the least, why then would a parts supplier (VAN's) supply the manufacturer (YOU) with parts to modify your airplane? This is the reality you face with experimental aviation, you choose to build/fly an experimental, so that is the kind of support you receive. Some SB's that are issued by aircraft manufactures subsidized (Lycoming and Cessna come to mind) and some aren't, but in experimental aviation, YOU are the subsidizer, thats why everything is less expensive!
 
Food for thought.

From the original post--------
bkc3921 said:
I'm a little confused....If Van's made the parts...and Van's determined that the parts are defective and unsafe
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O.K., has Vans actually come out and said the above, or is this just the authors paraphrasing of the situation as he sees it.

How about this one. " Vans has determined that the parts can be improved through a design change, which will give an improved margin of safety".

My words, not Vans, just another way of describing the situation, as I see it.
 
I can't find where Van's has said the old parts were defective and unsafe... nor can I find reference to a recall.

In the bulletin I looked at, I can't find where it says that RV builders MUST upgrade. It says in order TO upgrade, you MUST get the new fork etc.
 
osxuser said:
In spite of what people say, there is a problem with the -A model. That statement out of the way (i know not all agree, but come on...) I feel that it's time to point out the obvious, you are flying an experimental!
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Not necessarily a problem........

It's just an "upgrade", to allow one to roll over "deeper" gopher holes! :eek:

To many RV-A owners have been flying these aircraft for 10, 15 years, and more; without problems. That............is a FACT!

I do believe, that many 6A owners will be content with the old style, considering the shorter leg's, and possibly better wheel/bearing attachment.

L.Adamson RV6A
 
Bob Collins said:
I can't find where Van's has said the old parts were defective and unsafe... nor can I find reference to a recall.

In the bulletin I looked at, I can't find where it says that RV builders MUST upgrade. It says in order TO upgrade, you MUST get the new fork etc.
Click to expand...

Bob, I agree that Van's didn't use the word "defective'..but I believe it is clear that Van's wants the upgrades completed. They used the terms "mandatory" , "upgrade to the REQUIRED configuration" and a lot of "must be" 's in their bulletin. Although it's not a "recall"..I don't think I'll sleep well if I don't comply with the bulletin. I have to believe that Van and his team have our best interests at heart. I'm a little disappointed that we are not getting some kind of "at cost" replacement, but all things considered, I guess it could be worse. I still think this is a great kit at a reasonable price, and look forward to getting this small bump behind me...! Good luck to all and keep building!:)
 
I made the change before the SB was announced

Not because I thought anything was defective but as mentioned..it provides an added margin of safety IF I go into unimproved strips. I only have four landings/takeoffs on such strips so it is not a major factor and I could have decided to not do it.

I also never considered having Vans pay for it.

I also made a skid plate of sorts on the lower part of the front nose wheel pant to also improve the safety margin IF.
 
Skid Plate

Ron, I'd be very interested in a description and photos of your "skid plate of sorts" that you mention!
 
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