Rick6a

Rick6a

Well Known Member
As you probably know by now, Senator Jim Inhofe, flying his RV-8 suffered an unfortunate incident. Thankfully as it turns out, it was more embarrassing and costly an experience than anything else.

I'm not a taildragger pilot but I will eventually be one. And as an RV-8 builder, I am leaning towards not (eventually) installing rudder "pedals" for the backseater.

Without being judgmental or jumping to knee jerk conclusions, I address my thoughts to experienced tail wheel pilots out there: What do you make of these comments?

"Everything was fine until the tail wheel hit the runway," he said.

"Jim felt like his rudder control was not what it should have been, so
it was mechanical, certainly. As soon as we hit, we fish-tailed and
spun around a couple of times. "

What are the possibilites? Does anyone know what the true wind conditions and runway alignment were that day? Is it mechanically possible for the tailwheel to malfunction? Could interference by a back seat passenger block deft application of rudder or could its optional rear seat installation somehow jam?
 
Don't ask me how I know this, but...

After the initial story, Inhofe told a local <Tulsa> reporter that he suspected a rudder problem before he departed on the accident flight. He looked for the problem in the pre-flight, didn't find it, and departed anyway.

The rudder system's weak link has historically been the clips that connect the rudder horns to the chains going to the tailwheel steering arms and the same clips between the chain and the tailwheel steering arms. A number of jams and failures have been reported on these items.
 
I really haven't read much on the Senator's incident, but I can make just a couple of observations that might or might not help. First, I did lose a tailwheel steering link at one time in Phase I, due the the clip coming undone. I was unaware of any problem until I saw the chain hanging down as I got out of the plane after the flight. i had landed and taxied, making turns both left and right, and hadn't noticed the problem! So havign the chain disconnected CAN be a non-issue - under the right conditions.

Second, it is not uncommon to get a little "dart" when setting the tailwheel down, especially if there is a crosswind, and you have the rudder deflected, and also if you let the tail touch down fast (in my experience). I generally wheel land, and let the tail settle on it's own, but then when it touches, I make sure I plant it, to stop any free bouncing which can make things just feel just a little "nervous".

I know there are much more experienced RV tailwheel folks out there that can probably contribute more to the discussion!

Paul
 
My $.02 worth

Please do not consider me an expert in this area as there are many more knowledgeable and experienced RV tailwheel pilots out there but in my relatively short time (160+ hr) RV experience I have made some interesting observations about the RV tailwheel breed.
Even tho I have logged some 1500 hrs in various models from Luscombes to DC-3s over the past 40 years they all seem to have their own unique personalities. I am lucky enough to live across town from Alex De Dominicis and his RV-6 so I got a few hours dual before I began my Phase 1 flight testing back in 2003. I urge everyone who has no previous RV time to invest the time and money in this training. The handling differences between Alex's -6 and my -8 are relatively minor compared to most of my previous tailwheel types (J-3, PA-12,16,18,20, CE-120,140,180) and the nearest experience I could relate my RV-8 to would be a Lyc-powered Temco Swift I owned for about 4 years.
My initial 25 hrs Phase 1 flights were when my -8 was configured with Van's stock tailwheel and a Jantzi steering link which is exactly what Alex's -6 used. After a couple of "exciting" landing rollouts at my home field (T67) with 10-20K X-winds I was beginning to wonder if maybe I had taken on a little more than I could safely handle. Obviously during the crosswind gusts in the 3-point attitude I was exceeding the rudder deflection that allowed tailwheel steering and it reverted to full swivel mode as I was losing arodynamic control. Experts tell me the Hartzell prop and full flaps partially block rudder effectiveness during landing rollout.
During the 2004 New Braunfels flyin I casually mentioned this experience to Van and Ken and Van suggested I install the standard spring and chain assembly that came with the kit and see how it handled. They are still on and I have had no more ground arobatics since. Many people use these steering links with no problem so operator error could have been a factor. I might add that I have converted to mostly wheel landings when conditions permit after talking to many other RV-8 owners. YMMV
 
did anyone catch this?

From the article on www.tulsaworld.com....Danny Finnerty is the Senator's aide, and was in the back seat of the RV....

Finnerty said the plane, which he described as a "tail dragger," was built for the senator by a professional a few years ago.

The RV-8 aircraft is known as a "kit-plane." Such planes' manufacturers provide a kit from which to build the aircraft from the ground up, according to the manufacturer, Van's Aircraft.
 
Jerry Kinman said:
Van and Ken and Van suggested I install the standard spring and chain assembly that came with the kit and see how it handled. They are still on and I have had no more ground arobatics since. Many people use these steering links with no problem so operator error could have been a factor.
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In the last 6mo I installed a steering link on my -4. As far as I could tell there was zero difference between the link and springs. I almost always wheel land (unless I 3 point by mistake :)) so it might be less of a problem. People should realize that the the steering links have springs inside of them so they are pliable like the stock setup. I made the transition after about 450hrs of -4 time so that might have had a bit to do with it.
 
So steering links what you think, Politicians never make mistakes

Jerry Kinman said:
My initial 25 hrs Phase 1 flights were when my -8 was configured with Van's stock tailwheel and a Jantzi steering link which is exactly what Alex's -6 used. After a couple of "exciting" landing rollouts at my home field (T67) with 10-20K X-winds I was beginning to wonder if maybe I had taken on a little more than I could safely handle. Obviously during the crosswind gusts in the 3-point attitude I was exceeding the rudder deflection that allowed tailwheel steering and it reverted to full swivel mode as I was losing arodynamic control. Experts tell me the Hartzell prop and full flaps partially block rudder effectiveness during landing rollout.

During the 2004 New Braunfels flyin I casually mentioned this experience to Van and Ken and Van suggested I install the standard spring and chain assembly that came with the kit and see how it handled. They are still on and I have had no more ground arobatics since. Many people use these steering links with no problem so operator error could have been a factor. I might add that I have converted to mostly wheel landings when conditions permit after talking to many other RV-8 owners. YMMV
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I have the Jantzi steering link and you mentioned.

You also mention the swivel can brake loose on its own. You say the rudder was full over and that broke the swivel loose? There is something there but can't put my finger on it. I did not think full rudder would break it loose.

The tail wheel breaks loose into "swivel mode" with side load on the tail wheel it self. Going full rudder should not in itself make it swivel. However if you let the tail wheel touch down with the tail wheel fully deflected (while presumably going straight), it should swivel and go in trail (and you want it to). Not sure about that?


The Jantzi link, Jerry, anyone have comments, good, bad or indifferent?

The Jantzi steering link is different than the chains for sure because its a push pull thing. I don't think it's the cause of the Senator's wifferdale?

You mention "EXPERTS" saying the rudder becomes ineffective on roll out. How does that theory work? It just hits me as odd. What does a Hartzell prop and full flaps have to do with it? Low speed and three point attitude fuselage blocking are factors; all the RV's I fly have great rudder control for landing/roll out, no RV-8's though.

Thanks Jerry, I do have some doubts about the Jantzi link and have "heard things" but just want your honest opinion. I am glad the chain spring works better for you.



--------------------------------------------

As far as Honorable Senator Jim Inhofe, I also wounder if he contracted the construction out or just bought a flying RV. Hummmm the former being a no no.

Glad politicians fly RV's, but it's very possible he just messed up and ground looped. I know Senators are infallible, and admitting mistakes is not something they do. It sounds like the 71 year old Senator was tired, late at night and just let it get away from him. Also with the passenger it may have felt different than solo. Certainly there is more inertia if you let it start to yaw. I would not read a lot into the excuses.


Some times you have to use brakes. Differential braking is a standard taildragger technique, may be forgotten because RV's don't need brakes at all 99.999% of the time. If it starts to yaw "against your will" the brake is a doable and necessary thing, but it requires a delicate touch; it's not about locking them up. Dragging the down wind brake to maintain directional control may come in useful someday. On the other hand it could get you into trouble if used incorrectly. :D
 
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ground control problems

gmcjetpilot said:
...As far as Honorable Senator Jim Inhofe, flying his RV-8. Glad politicians fly planes and RV's. ...
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I've gotta agree with this 100%. If all politicians flew experimental aircraft, our rights would be much safer than they are now.

While it sometimes sounds like a lame excuse, I've seen some ground control problems caused by very freaky gusts of wind that are far beyond the physical abilities of the aircraft to handle, no matter which pilot is in the front seat. SNF '04 saw a warbird go into the ditch on rollout due to totally calm air turning into a sudden gusty quartering tailwind of about 20kts. I was watching it with several RV8 pilots, and we at first could not figure out why he had control problems, then a few seconds later the wind hit us in the face. We all said "Ah ha!".
 
Observe....

Mornin' all,
I've flown Ag for 36 years now, all in taildraggers and yes, they can bite you. Here are a few observations and lessons learned the hard way.

While flying, the movement of cloud shadows on the ground can tell you the winds aloft direction during your flight and the water on ponds will be shiny on their upwind side....(for real!!), if you can't see smoke. By carefully watching for these signs near your landing, you can have an advanced idea as to the wind direction before you even arrive at the airport. Trees waving back and forth can tell of gusty conditions too.

Some airports have trees lining their sides, maybe several hundred yards away, with gaps in the trees. When a crosswind is blowing, the trees shield you from the wind but as soon as you get alongside the gap (while you're complacent on a successful rollout) with no trees, whammo! a crosswind gust and you (or the Senator) goes around if you're caught sleeping. Same thing applies for buildings/no buildings.

Whether or not you have links or springs, you have to keep on your toes and make quick corrections instantly, sometimes with brakes as well and your feet should be positioned so that you can, in the event that rudder alone is not enough. Slide the tires if you must, it's cheaper than a groundloop/noseover! Just do whatever it takes...QUICKLY ;)
Regards,
 
First, I agree with George that rudder input will not break the tailwheel loose...it has to be input from the wheel, normally caused by brake input, though I guess a touchdown with a lot of rudder deflection might do it.

At about 50 hours I converted my RV8 from springs to the Jantzi steering link. I immediately prefered the link...the spring action was a little firmer, and there was no dead zone from the sag of the chains.

I think a key here is that the 8 doesn't really like 3 point landings. There is something going on there blanking the rudder or what ever that makes them squirrly. I made my first landing 3 point, then I tried a wheel landing on the second, and never went back to the 3 point. My neighbor lands his 4 on all 3 every time, so I think it is an 8 trait. I don't have any time in the other RVs.

I now have a Silver Bullet steering link...very nice piece of work, and fast too!

As Pierre says, the taildragger can bite you. Sometimes it is a vicious gust of wind at the wrong time, other times it is a bit of complacency at the wrong time. I feel sure the aide was being defensive of his congressman saying it was mechanical...that was nice of him. Also, my hangar neighbor has told me his friend "Emu" was the one who sold the senator his airplane. Emu built it for himself and flew it a while, then sold it and moved to Hawaii. So, I think it was a legitimate thing, and again the aide had it wrong.

Best to all...see you at Santa Teresa!
 
Ah, come on...

prporter said:
Here is his link. (snipped by dh)

http://inhofe.senate.gov/contactus.htm
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Sen Inhofe is by far THE most active proponent of General Aviation in Washington. Give the guy a break, for crying out loud!

He gets back to Tulsa maybe once every few weeks. How the heck is he going to personally build 51% of his own plane? If the only way we can get an RV owner/pilot in Congress is for the rules to be bent a little, I've got no problem with that.

I don't know or care what happened to cause his ground loop. I'm just grateful he didn't get hurt. He's a great guy. When I was building my plane at Riverside, I often stopped by his hangar when the door was open to check on his progress. He always had time to shoot the bull and show off his plane. It's a real hot-rod, by the way, with all the bells and whistles, of course.

I can tell you this, when he was in town, he was there at the hangar getting his hands dirty. He may have had help, but the rules don't say that 51% has to be done by the owner... just that it has to be done by amateurs. I don't remember the name of the guy who did most of the work, but he was doing a great job and I imagine there's no shortage of guys who wouldn't mind having someone famous finance their favorite passtime -- even if they never got paid.
 
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Sorry, I forgot that senators don't have to follow the same rules we do. I guess his work week is more important than the common folks who have to budget their time between earning a living and building. I wonder how long it will be before some anti GA congressman gets wind of this and clamps down on GA experimental with reference to the 51% rule.

[ed. Please respect the rules that I've asked people to follow in here - specifically #9 in the 'over the line' section.
Please! dr]
 
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prporter said:
Sorry, I forgot that senators don't have to follow the same rules we do. I guess his work week is more important than the common folks who have to budget their time between earning a living and building. I wonder how long it will be before some anti GA congressman gets wind of this and clamps down on GA experimental with reference to the 51% rule.

[ed. Please respect the rules that I've asked people to follow in here - specifically #9 in the 'over the line' section.
Please! dr]
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Don't get me wrong - I think the majority in the US Senate could/should be brought up on charges of treason. But by prefacing with comments about earning a living, it sounds more like a have/have not complaint.

Also, no congressman gives a flip about us homebuilders, UNLESS, one of us plows his "homemade" plane into a constituent's house!

Now, on the other hand, an overzealous FAA employee *could* make our lives very difficult should they decide that the current interpretation of the "51% rule" is not appropriate.

IMO, what Inhofe did with his son and a friend building his RV is fine by me!! They're not out selling completed RV's.
 
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Inhofe's loop

Does anyone know if he had chains or a link (Jantzi or Silver bullet)? Also, I am suprised nobody is mentioning the fact that the pin inside of the tailwheel is often the culprit when the pedal goes one way but the tailwheel doesnt move. Can either be a problem with the pin not moving out of the hole (either from burrs or dirt) *or* the shoulder of the steering arm will not engage the pin fully (the shoulders wear down). This condition would be evident during a walkaraound, when lateral pressure on the rudder does not (or intermittently) steer the tail wheel. Dont ask me how I know...(rather, if you are interested, I would gladly share).

Jon Weiswasser
RV-8, Montclair, NJ
 
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