#N72CR

Well Known Member
I can't make it ot Oshkosh this year, because I will be purchasing a custom panel for my RV-7A in the next 3 months. Leaning towards Garmin, but open to other options:eek:

I would like a wired panel with complete wiring harness...(trying make this as painless as possible)

Please give company names with a contact person and their email address.

I've budgeted $15K and hope it will buy me a nice IFR/GPS Panel.

You can PM this infor if you prefer


Finishing kit RV-7A
 
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I'd suggest starting with SteinAir - great folks and good service. Depending on what you want, $15K might be tough but SteinAir would be a good place to start that process.
 
Afordable Panels

Chris,

I looked at SteinAir and thought they were too expensive. I'm having my panel built by Fabian Lefler at www.affordablepanels.com. I think your cost estimate might be a little low for an IFR/GPS panel.

Good Luck,
Bob C. (RV9AQB)
 
Always remember the cost of support, knowledge and advice when making these choices.

I have a hard time imagining any shop being able to sell the actual radios and instruments alone to make a GPS/IFR panel for less than $15K. You may want to consider a basic build with pre-planned future upgrades.

I will also suggest to be aware of the lowest cost supplier. You want a full time business with the knowledge to do it right, and the staying power to support you in the future.
 
For that budget, you are going to have to build it yourself. Approach systems (http://www.approachfaststack.com/) could help with the wiring. Also the basic Vertical Power system (http://www.verticalpower.com/VP50.html) for power. Setup what you want and get the panel cut out at a machine shop...

I'm a big fan of doing stuff on a budget, but for 15K you will get a Comm radio, transponder, and steam gauges if you go with a pro/prebuilt panel.... ok maybe not that bad, but certainly not IFR.
 
Thanks everyone who responed. It maybe I will need to go with Standard instruments, in order to fit the IFR GPS into the budget.

I'm in the process of figuring all this out. I don't need a Garmin 430, and think the XL155GPS would be just fine for any approaches with a 700' ceiling.

I will follow-up on these leads and anymore that follow in this thread.

Thanks, CR
 
If you're willing to build the panel yourself, you should be able to do it for substantially less than $15K and still get an IFR capable panel. This is what I'm doing, since I can't afford the latest/greatest WAAS/HITS/etc. stuff. For approximately $9000, I've got :

1) Dynon EFIS-D10A + EMS-D10A
2) Traditional airspeed/altitude/turn coordinator
3) KMA24 audio panel
4) KX-155A + KI-209A NAV/COM with glideslope
5) ICOM A200 for COM2
6) King KLN-89B GPS with enroute and non-precision approach capability
7) Garmix GTX-327 transponder
8) PS Engineering PM3000 intercom
9) Lots of little odds & ends to help hook it all up

...but I get to wire it myself, which is turning out to be tedious but not actually that big of a deal. With the exception of the ICOM radio, all this is used equipment with a fresh yellow tag and with new faceplates/knobs. It's not exactly state of the art, but it beats a VFR-only panel and combines an EFIS with steam gauges. Put into one of Laird Owen's composite/modular panels, I can also swap stuff out without too much trouble in the future.
 
DIY or spenda lot more

I can't make it ot Oshkosh this year, because I will be purchasing a custom panel for my RV-7A in the next 3 months. Leaning towards Garmin, but open to other options:eek:

I would like a wired panel with complete wiring harness...(trying make this as painless as possible)

Please give company names with a contact person and their email address.

I've budgeted $15K and hope it will buy me a nice IFR/GPS Panel.

You can PM this infor if you prefer


Finishing kit RV-7A

None of the "custom" shops would really even give me the time of day since I did not want to spend $40K on an IFR panel. Seriously, even a steam gauge VFR panel was quoted at anywhere from $20 to $30 thousand. Yikes!

You can do a nice, basic IFR panel with EFIS/GPS for around 15K easy.

For example:

  • MGL Odyssey and associated probes and senders. $5K. Moving map, terrain, Engine instruments, all Flight instruments on one screen. Also acts as altitude encoder.
  • SL-30 for COMM1 and NAV $3300 (or so) (displays on the EFIS)
  • GARMIN 300XL GPS/COMM for enroute and approach GPS ($3000 reman) or so. Can also display on the EFIS.
  • Basic SL10 Intercom (not really needed, but hey). $1500
  • Yellow tag Xponder (I have KT76C) $1500. There are cheaper ones.
  • Add Anywhere map with XM weather, for around $1500.
  • Budget around $1000 for wiring and breakers,or use Controlvision EXP2 bus for $300 (or so). :)

Buy your modular panel from affordablepanels.com.
Autopilot will run you about $1000 extra (once MGL releases their servos). :)

I have all the above except for the 300XL.
I'll be adding an MGL Enigma as my backup instrument set (soon). :)
Currently my "backup" nav is the Garmin 196 I have panel mounted and my PDA with Anwheremap WX.

No, it's not a dual Garmin 530/430 with G1000 displays, but it will get the job done and the $30K I saved will buy a lot of gas, even at $5.25 a gallon.

YMMV,
JP
 
Here are a couple recommendations from someone who has used quite a few different IFR GPS'.

I'd pick a Apollo GX50 or GX60 over a 155XL or 300XL. Costs are similer, but the GX series use a much more user friendly. Less button pushing and things to do during IFR operations, and have the ability to monitor a SECOND comm.

My setup recommedations for a basic IFR panel are:
Steam gauges, non of those pictoral pilot, Gyro-Like instrument, but REAL gyros.
Garmin/Apollo GX60 (around $2000 with a switchbox for indicator)
Garmin 396 (talks to the GX60...) ($2000)
Garmin SL30 (KX155 if you can't afford the SL30) ($2400 to 4000)
Garmin 320A transponder ($1000)
PS Engineering 4000 Audio selector... OR Garmin 340, OR PSe 7000B OR whatever... ($1000)

At this point, I'd go with Approach systems unit for the wiring harness so you can swap stuff in and out later. You should be able to afford a nice Vertical Power unit for your engine monitor/electrical bus needs, and still get somewhere close to your budget...

I plan on an SL30, 396, SL70 or GTX320A for my -4, with the basic vertical power unit. No need for Approach systems in the -4.
 
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Why have them do it ?

Seems to me that you can pay them to build a marginal panel for 15K or get a better panel and do some of it yourself. What do you really get with a fully wired panel that you can't do yourself? Almost everything you buy is pre-wired just not connected ;-(

Remember, even if you have the panel built, you still have to wire the airplane which is not insignificant. After you do that, the panel doesn't seem nearly as overwhelming as the first look. By that point, you may still be glad you had the panel wired but you will understand that there was no reason you couldn't have done it yourself if you wanted to.

I bought a Dual GRT EFIS/EIS system which is functionally pre-wired but you will need to add power. Everything is identified by pin location and color coded wire. I bought a GNS430, SL40, GTX330 from Stark Avionics and he wired the stack for free. TT Autopilot only has a couple of wires so no real problem there.

Granted, now I had three piles of wires. There is an EFIS, and EIS, a radio stack, and a mess of wires (but all neatly labeled). 27 labeled wires from the radio stack as I remember it and some open DB connector pins on the GRT system. I used the diagram from GRT which is wire for wire (did take a little interpretation) but I managed to get it all together and working. Just imagine that you are just connecting the wires from the left side of the page to the right side.

http://www.grtavionics.com/File/Wiring Diagrams/WD-1003-02.pdf

Then after it was working, I rewired anything where the length was wrong or wouldn't bundle. (several times)

I think I saved a couple of grand, got better equipment, and now have a through understanding of how it works.

OK,..... maybe I made it sound too simple, but if you read and follow the Aeroelectric connection and are patient, it is really one of the more enjoyable tasks in the building process.

Just my .02

Bill S
7a finishing
 
Well, I paid near $40k for my panel and I'd do it again except I'd pay more - I want WX and TCAS next time. Then again, I've got a Synthetic Vision EFIS - the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS One, plus the autopilot and some other goodies. Now, I can do wiring. In fact, I still had to do all the wiring to the panel, plus a couple of modifications for the Lightspeed ignitions and all the power cables. But Aerotronics did a much nicer job than I would have done. They used better components that probably cost them (and thus, me) less because they buy more than I would. They knew how to make things interface whereas I would have read the manual, missed critical instructions, still screwed it up, and then been told to RTFM. I've already done that with some of the hookups I had to do for the engine sensors.

I'm not suggesting everyone should do that. I've seen some beautiful homebuilt panels. And, if I'd stuck to my original plan of steam gauges for a VFR panel, I'd have done my own, as well. But I just didn't want to take any chances on the interactions and interfaces necessary for the panel I ended up with.

Since I'm here, let me put in a plug for Aerotronics. From the moment I first contacted them, I felt like part of the design team. I told them what I wanted and they bent over backwards to deliver. We went through several iterations of the design and even when I sent my panel structure to them for the build, they first built it in clear plexi to be sure everything worked. I showed up around that time and we went over the installation, found a few problems, and made sure everything worked before the actual panel was cut. During my visit, I was treated like a VIP instead of made to feel like I was joggling their elbows. And, best of all, as I've wired the panel everything has worked flawlessly (except where I've messed up). Even my mistakes get corrected with a quick email or phone call. You may know of a better or cheaper shop but I'll still go back to Aerotronics because they are good and they are worth every penny.
 
Forget the Panel Builders!!

Chris...

C'mon, you can do it yourself!! All of it including cutting the actual panel and making the wiring harness. How do I know you can do it? Because I did it and I am not a whiz kid by far so that means you can do it like many homebuilders have before us and many will after us.

My RV6 panel is a steam gauge six pack with a couple of used instruments, the altimeter & G meter were used but rebuilt, gyros were new, the Garmin GNC300XL & Garmin transponder were factory remans. (but you couldn't tell it when I opened the boxes). I even had a DigiTrak wing leveler autopilot but my intercom is PS Engineering cheapy (no stereo or Bluetooth nor is it a switching panel). Oh yes, I used all Van's engine gauges. My cost was $8500 in 2003 but your $15000 today I am sure will more than cover IF YOU DO EVERYTHING YOURSELF!!

Cutting the panel was done after careful layout, all holes pilot drilled #40 then enlarged from there. Seems to me I plugged a #40 hole with a flush rivet but you cannot tell. A fly cutter in a drill press made all the large holes and some filing for final fit. It looked good and I even have flush screws mounting all instruments rather than the error covering pan head screws.

Vacuum and pitot/static system & instruments were next but I wouldn't do that today. I think the lower end Dynons, and GRT displays are probably cheaper now than a vacuum system with gyros and they do much more.

Wiring. Well, I did some electronics work 30 years ago so I bought a good pencil type soldering iron and visited Radio Shack for supplies. I read the AeroElectric" book, found an excellent article in the RV6 builders manual and drew all the circuits for the entire airplane. A load analysis is a must but not that difficult to do. I then bought my connectors, heat shrink, etc from DigiKey and after mounting the radio trays started wiring. I tested each circuit as I completed it with jumpers to my 12V rechargeable drill battery. Passed the smoke test, er... at least most of the time! I did have to recheck every stinking circuit in the airplane due to a messed up ground but after a couple days I found it and passed the smoke test!!! Proceeded to tear the tops off a few beer cans after that.

The point here is you can do it!!! The installation manuals are good but they must be read and solutions must be found to satisfy all the installation requirements. Antennae must be placed beyond specified areas to enhance signal coverage. An RV does not have a whole lot of area to start with so there are limitations and these are in the manuals.

Now a confession. My Rv6 has a soft IFR panel. I did not install my GNC300XL to IFR standards i.e. I have no annunciator nor a CDI so it is VFR only. I also have no VOR which was backordered as I was building so I left a space for it but upon flying the airplane decided I no longer wanted it as my idea of IFR in this airplane is a 180 degree turn to VFR. I know of several RV's built IFR but very few(only one!) that actually FLY IFR. Since I did not buy the VOR I also have no switching panel as I have only one comm. Certainly not a real IFR airplane. I have added Altrak VS since which is not in the $8500 figure...sure like it though!! In fact the airplane is so nimble and quick that I don't believe you could fly IFR without my TruTrak equipment (or whatever autopilot you choose).

Once again...You can do it!! Homebuilts are built at home!!

Dick DeCramer
RV6 N500DD flying 300 hrs
RV 8 wings completed, fus. kit on hand
Northfield, MN
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I'm curious:

I'm about 2 years away from working on my panel, but how much are people dumping into them? I'd love to have a hard IFR panel with two big EFIS/EMs, autopilot, WX, traffic, WAAS, etc. If you do it all the wiring yourself, are you looking at, what, $40k? $50k? What's the most you've heard someone put in their panel?
 
Well, I paid near $40k for my panel and I'd do it again except I'd pay more - I want WX and TCAS next time. Then again, I've got a Synthetic Vision EFIS - the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS One, plus the autopilot and some other goodies. QUOTE]

HOLY COW! You spent 40K on a panel and didn't get WX and TCAS ?? I think you got shorted a little bit ;-) WX would be the next $1,500 I would spend if it's a serious IFR bird.

Bill S
7a finishing
 
Thanks for everyones comments. What does it cost to put together a semi-custom panel? I'm looking for an hourly rate or total labor costs. There is not much I can do about the cost of an SL30 new, but what does it cost to have someone install it???

I would figure the person/company putting these custom panels together would have a process that reduces the total time needed to build an wire a nice custom panel, and have a quick turnaround, hense not having $12-25K in equipment sitting on the workbench for a week or three.

I'm guessing 36 hours to cut and build a panel and test it....for me it would be more like 80-120 hours do to the learning curve. To me this service is worth $2000-$3500 (less than the cost of vans quick build fuselage option).

I've seen what Advantage Avonics can do at last years Copperstate Fly-in, and really like what I saw, but I was not ready to buy, hense, so we kept the discussion focused on their product...building a custom panel. There were no other vendors which attended Copperstate, that had anything to show...but the avonics vendors were there with their displays, as you would expect for a regional event.
 
HOLY COW! You spent 40K on a panel and didn't get WX and TCAS ?? I think you got shorted a little bit ;-) WX would be the next $1,500 I would spend if it's a serious IFR bird.

Bill S
7a finishing

LOL! Well, I figure I can always look out the window if I want to know the weather... :D I really like having a traffic feature - my eyesight is great but will only degrade as my hobbs increases. But, synthetic vision! HITS!

Seriously, I went for this panel for the easy navigation and flight management because I intend to travel. Not so much for IFR, though I intend to certify it as such, but for avoiding trouble and increasing my options. On the other hand, I learned in steam gauge aircraft; nothing wrong with them at all. And I've seen some mighty tidy VFR panels in RVs. I don't see the need for a full IFR panel in an RV built to compete in racing or acro but my proposed mission is different.

My point in my earlier posts was to say that as panel complexity goes up, the usefulness of allowing an experienced shop assist also goes up. Certainly a homebuilder can put a complex panel together; I could have done this one myself. But, it wouldn't have been as pretty because my design decisions would not have been as informed, my learning curve would have been steep (and rocky), and my confidence in the finished panel would be less. Just something to consider in a build/buy decision and not saying one or the other is better.
 
Hi Chris,

You really need to take a serious look at what some of these guys said and perhaps given your budget the best option is to do it yourself.

Most of the professional shops (like us or Aerotronics) will expend at least 100-200 man-hours per panel, sometimes more, sometimes less. The typical builder will spend at least 3-4 times that amount if they figured out their total labor including laying out/drafting a panel layout, cutting it, mounting all of the components, racks, trays, fitting switches, fabricating buss bars, fitting circuit breakers, crimping all the terminals on the wires, 4-5 hours of hand lacing all the finished bundles, painting it, labeling it, etc.. all BEFORE you ever turn a single thing on. Then, it'll take at least 6-12 hours to get everything programmed, tested, integrated, etc.. Without going into a long boring detail, suffice to say with the shops that do this for a living you are getting a service that in it's basic form converts money into time. Realize the full service pro shops spend extra time on things like the painting/labeling, hand lacing all the bundles, programming and interfacing, and usually at least a couple days worth of bench testing that often includes a fill pitot/static run, full transponder check, full VOR/ILS Cal's, etc..

On a relatively simple panel the value probably isn't there for you, but on higher end stuff where you're talking 40-50K worth of avionics I can almost guarantee you that wiring it yourself is a very major undertaking. Hourly rates for most reputable avionics places range from $70-100/hr which might seem high until you come take a look at the equipment, training, facilities, tooling, and FAA paperwork we have to keep up. I just bought a Mode S transponder test box....the price would frighten most of you! Price out the cost of having a full time GPS signal generator inside a building and that will scare you as well!

I'd suggest the following. Buy your avionics from a good, reputable dealer that will provide you with interconnect harnesses. Stark is excellent for this, as are many other shops including us. Many of our customers don't have us build the panel, they just buy the pieces - we wire them up and you put it together. Most of the EFISes you buy come with pre-made harnesses (we happen to build most of them), as well as Autopilot harnesses, etc..

If you find a shop willing to do your entire panel for $2K, I'd say caveat emptor. Indeed we have done some for not too far off that mark, but they are VERY simplistic. The reality is you're probably better off trying to do it yourself. You may find a talented individual who'll do the work for you directly, but without direct support from mfgrs like Garmin that the bigger shops get, you're sort of gambling on the outcome. Best bet is to buy your equipment from good mfgr recommended dealers and do it yourself. You'll learn a lot along the way and might even enjoy it! There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, and don't forget you can always come back here and ask questions. You'll notice that a few of the more experienced shops (myself and Jason from Aerotronics) regularly try and help people with their questions on this forum, even if they didn't buy the stuff from us and there are some pretty sharp homebuilders on these forums as well to help you out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your budget doesn't allow for one of the more well known shops to do the work, the next best thing is to do it yourself. Settling for something in between means you're giving up something. There are a lot of people on this forum who've done their panel themselves (the majority) so I can guarantee you it's not that bad....but I can also guarantee you it'll take a LOT longer than your initial time estimates.

Stop by at OSH and I can show you in person where the hours add up!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, somebody asked about the most expensive RV panel...we did one that was north of $130K, but we also did one that was less than $10K in totality! Walk through our shop and you'll see everything from single screen Dynon panels to G900X equipped panels, and everything in between.
 
Ask around

Thanks for everyones comments. What does it cost to put together a semi-custom panel? I'm looking for an hourly rate or total labor costs. There is not much I can do about the cost of an SL30 new, but what does it cost to have someone install it???

I did the physical install of my avionics myself. I could have done the wiring harness for the SL-30, but a good friend, who does such things for a living, offered to do my rather simple SL-30 and transponder cables as a favor. I don't have an intercom (yet), I use the internal one in the SL-30.

Tools needed to wire an SL30 are minimal. You need a good DB pin crimper ($40 or so) and some #22 tefzel. :)

Heck, they even prewire the power terminals for you straight from the factory.

The SL-30 installation manual is quite complete.

YMMV
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I'm curious:

I'm about 2 years away from working on my panel, but how much are people dumping into them? I'd love to have a hard IFR panel with two big EFIS/EMs, autopilot, WX, traffic, WAAS, etc. If you do it all the wiring yourself, are you looking at, what, $40k? $50k? What's the most you've heard someone put in their panel?
Two big EFIS does not an IFR (hard?) panel make. You can put together a very good IFR panel without any EFIS. With today's technology $40K ~should~ get you a LOT of panel. If you have crossed the $40K threshold you probably should look seriously at the G900X. However my general rule of thumb is that once the avionics cost approach or go past 1/3 your total build cost, something is not right.

http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/91Panel/index.html
 
I believe there is a niche in the homebuilt experimental that has not been filled yet.

I would have thought by now, someone would be offering a nice standard, CNC'd panel, prewired, nav lights/flap switch/etc, wire harness plug and play, with all the parts, pieces, just like you find from van's aircraft. It would be nice to just buy the kit...

I would think most of us are building a van's aircraft because the kit is complete...with addition of the FWF kit.

A couple panel options (VFR or IFR/GPS) would complete the kit. Price it right.

Ok...I'll debur, pound the rivits, and get the panel painted, but offer me a complete kit.
 
But the problem is everyone wants a different panel setup... hence companies like AffordiblePanels and Steinair.
 
I believe there is a niche in the homebuilt experimental that has not been filled yet.

I would have thought by now, someone would be offering a nice standard, CNC'd panel, prewired, nav lights/flap switch/etc, wire harness plug and play, with all the parts, pieces, just like you find from van's aircraft. It would be nice to just buy the kit...

I would think most of us are building a van's aircraft because the kit is complete...with addition of the FWF kit.

A couple panel options (VFR or IFR/GPS) would complete the kit. Price it right.

Ok...I'll debur, pound the rivits, and get the panel painted, but offer me a complete kit.

Surprisingly it's been tried - more than once. I can guarantee you 100% that if you tried that as a business you'd sell exactly ONE of your pre-made panels - maybe not even that, becase they first thing you'll hear is "I want that panel"....but with one or two tiny changes.

Anyway, the idea sounds good and has been tried, but even after doing hundreds of panels for many years we've done exactly ZERO panels that are 100% identical.

It's a nice idea I agree, and it would reduce the cost of the panel a little bit -but not as much as you think.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Heading over to the booth for the day!

Cheers from OSH!
Stein.