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Phil

Phil

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Last week I was planning on ordering my TMXIO-540-D4A5 from Mattituck but work got the best of me and I never had a chance to send in the order. I was disappointed and was determined to get the order in next week.

Fast forward to tonight - We're working on getting the baby to sleep through the night so he's in the other room screaming and we're letting him 'cry it out'. There's no sleeping around here so I pull out the latest AOPA magazine and start flipping through the pages. Then I find this article in there:

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2010/101214continental_mattituck_to_be_sold_to_China.html

My first response was one of relief; I was glad I got busy and didn't write a check in excess of $45K last week. Second, my heart sank because I really loved the TMX engine and the service that comes along with it.

What has been a reputable engine could be replaced with Chinese made parts in the future. What does it mean for the resale 10 years from now when the public perception is that you have one of those "cheap Chinese Lycoming knockoffs" that's bolted to the front of your RV-10?

Perhaps the sale won't really affect Mattituck's business or product - but can we be certain?

One thing is certain; our money is leaving this country and not coming back. The only way it comes back in the form of a loan - but that's a whole other thread on another board.

Unfortunately I have to draw the line here.

With a broken heart I have to breakup with that girl that I really love because I know we aren't going to workout in the long run. Tomorrow I get to start the search for someone new and I'm not looking forward to going through the courting process again.

This topic hasn't been mentioned in any other thread so I thought I'd take a minute and highlight it for others who are getting close to their engine purchases too. You can decide for yourself if this is a good thing or not; but I'm 99.9% sure it's no longer right for me.

Phil
 
This brings up a whole other debate, which probably doesn't belong on VAF.

I spent 14 years working at a GM subsidary during the whole "Buy American" advertisng push. For the last year, I've been working at Honda.

While I fully endorse, buy American, it does make you wonder which is more "American". Is a vehicle more American if it's imported by an American owned company or if it is built by a foreign company in the US with American employees and the majority of parts manufactured in the US? It certainly makes you think....

I bought my Lycoming though Van's. No question about the heritage there. It may not have all the bells and whistles that the other engine kit builders provide, but I got a great deal. SnF is just around the corner, so Vans and Lycoming should have another offering based upon their actions over the last couple of years.

Too bad that BPS isn't selling new engines anymore.
 
I find it interesting that no one recognized the "oldest trick in the book" to kill competition. Flood the market with cheap goods to collapse the local manufactures of those good and drive them out of business. Then raise prices after you have captured the market. Has anyone seen the prices of stuff lately? Yet we are told there is no inflation, and unemployment is only 9.4%. :rolleyes:

This thread probably will be killed, but I find it amazing that no one really cares if the jobs (and with the manufacturing, engineering and production expertise and experience) go to a country who's political doctrine has always been world dominance.

Yes, I think the Chinese engine will hurt the price on your -10 for a while, until they are the only game in town.
 
Who Are You Hurting?

That's a shame Phil - the guy's at Mattituck build a superb engine - always have, and I bet that as long as the PEOPLE who build them are still there (they are right now) they will continue to do so. The same is true of the Barrett's and Bart and Sue Aerosport (although be careful, the Aerosport folks are on the other side of the border, so you may have to cross them off your list if I understand your selection criteria).

The real shame, though, is to think of who you'll really hurt.

a) Yourself because you deprive yourself of hundreds (if not thousands) of years of American engine building experience.

b) The hardworking, small-town American folks (and their families) in the little country town of Mattituck, New York who make their living building engines.


Yup, I'm pulling at a few emotional strings here, but think about it. Mattituck was bought by Continental back before I had them build my first engine in 2005. I asked them about their new owners, and their response (the guys building engines in the ramshackle collection of building that make up the company) was "They stay in Alabama, we stay in New York, we build engines the way we always have, they leave us alone!" I doubt that yet another set of corporate owners will change the way they think - and if they are are asked to cut corners, most of them will quit.

We could go off on a long discussion of the politics of "buy American", but that is inappropriate here ON VAF, as politics are of limits. From a purely practical, engine-building standpoint, I don't understand the logic of deselecting Mattituck on the grounds of who owns them "now". Any engine that you have built NOW is going to be made of parts from Lycoming or ECI (Superior doesn't currently have any big parts to sell, from what I hear), and it is going to be built by a bunch of small-town guys in New York. Maybe in a dozen years, cheap knock-off parts will predominate in their's (and other's) engines, but right now - I bet my life on them every day.

Just one man's opinion of course,

Paul
 
Not that I'm at all happy about more manufacturing going to China, but I think there's a big difference between the cheap "reverse engineered" products that China sells (like minibikes and vacuum cleaners), and legitimate aerospace products that the country is capable of. After all, Boeing buys a bunch of airplane parts from China. Also, where is the Cessna Skycatcher made?

As far as that goes, are Vans quick build kits knocked together in Oregon?
 
FWIW. Superior is now owned by a Chinese company and I'll be glad when they get their engines back in production. It will probably mean more jobs in the US and the revival of a brand that many people love.
 
Mattituck is not being sold

The Mattituck TMX engines are built with ECI parts, and ECI is not part of Telkedyne Technologies, so their availability is not affected by this deal. The AOPA news release also says, "The 80-year-old company is to retain, under the agreement, its service centers in Fairhope, Ala., and Mattituck, N.Y."

The way it see it, Mattituck will still be building TMX engines in New York using ECI components from a company located in San Antonio, TX.

The sale of Teledyne Technologies to a Chinese company will have little effect on Mattituck and the quality of their TMX engines.
 
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Paul,

I agree with everything you said and that's the .1% that tells me it's okay.

I know (today) it's still the same a great engine and support. I just worry about the uncertainty of how the engine is going to be perceived 10 years from now.

I'm going back to the drawing board and re-evaluating all my options before moving forward. Today's Mattituck engine is phenomenal though.

Phil

FWIW - Yeah, I don't go to Wal-Mart. If I'm lucky I might end up going there once per year and that's usually on a trip when I need supplies and don't know where else to go in the local area. It's really really rare. :)
 
TCM

Years ago Lycoming pistons were made in Brazil. I've heard that all Lyc parts are now made in the US, have also heard that NO parts are made in the Lyc factory. Can't confirm either. I do not have any issues with the Chinese purchase at this point. One very good reason to support Mattituck is Mahlon Russells ongoing help on the Lyc forum and on VAF. Mahlon is always the guy that is there with the answers.
 
Yeah, I agree. Russell is a big part of the reason I was determined to buy the Mattituck.

I guess I should clarify a couple of things about the international aspect too. I drive an F-150 on the weekend, my wife drives a Jeep Liberty, but I also drive a BMW thats for business during the week. I really don't have any issue driving or buying the German car because their motive and tactics are much different than the Chinese.

The Chinese issue is a much broader pandemic involving reverse 'knock-off' engineering, extremely cheap imports, jobs taken directly away from the US, etc..

The BMW is a different story - it's a German car from soup (engineering) to nuts (manufacturing). Albeit it is partially assembled in the US to avoid some tarriffs. I just wanted to get that out on the table so if some of you see me zipping around in BMW you won't call me a hypocrite. :)

For the record, I've got a few knock-off harbor freight tools (sanders and such) sitting in the garage. If tool precision/quality isn't important and it's a small amount of money, I typically don't mind a HF tool if it's something I need to use only once or twice.

An aircraft engine is a different story though. That's a lot of money to send outside of the country (granted some will be staying here for payroll).

Phil
 
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follow the money

Phil said:
... That's a lot of money to send outside of the country (granted some will be staying here for payroll).

Phil
Click to expand...
My guess is that almost all of it will stay in the USA, since I doubt any of these companies are wildly profitable. I'm not flying yet, but really love my Mattituck! Have a look here and see if it doesn't make you want to write a check!

http://www.rv8.ch/vr/demo.html
 
Phil,

I'm not sure I follow your concern. Is it practical (the parts from China are going to be junk), or is it philosophical (We're enabling China to take over the world)?

This thread can (and will) take several courses , and I think a little clarity will guide the responses.
 
I remember twenty five years ago Japanese goods were seen as being rubbish that would not last very long. Fast forward to today and they are now mostly seen as high quality (Toyota has had a few issues with their cars but who has not ?).

China seems to me to be where Japan was ten to fifteen years ago and with the rapid improvement of many of their manufactured goods it could well be that your engine is seen as being desirable. They have bought a number of companies that will speed up that process as they absorb the technology from those companies. Volvo is now owned by a Chinese company as one example.

In many cases if the Chinese had not bought or invested in overseas companies they would have folded. It means that people are still employed and not buying from those companies just puts those people out of work.

Whole other question of where your money ends up but for better or worse we are now a global economy. Human rights will hopefully improve with time.

Australia has had many of our companies bought out by American interests and plenty of US goods hit our shores. We do like your RV's as one of those goods :)
 
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