born2fly

born2fly

Active Member
What seat belts are "legal"?

We are all supposed to fly our experimentals in accordance with FAR 91.205, in which I read that I must have:
"91.205(b)(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older."

If you go to FAR Part 1.1 (definitions), "approved" means "approved by the Administrator".

I really doubt that any of the Hooker, Crow, or other automotive racing harnesses have been approved by the FAA Administrator, yet EVERYONE is using them. The regular cross-the-chest automotive retractable belts are also clearly as good as the similar aircraft-approved belts available, and are a LOT cheaper. Automotive belts look like a real good deal, regardless of the style - but they can't possibly be "approved", can they?

Can anyone explain this situation to me?
 
Hooker makes tso and non tso belts. I called them and asked why the tsod belts were over twice the money as the regular belts as they looked identical. The guy said the only difference was the tso tag. You don't need tso'd belts in a homebuilt. Crow makes the nicest belts for the money and they are a great company to deal with. Don
 
When I was building, I did the research on the requirement for TSO'd belts (none, as yakdriver pointed out), and then did some research on the actual strength and engineering behind aviation belts and auto racing belts. The aviation belts are based on an old automobile spec from decades ago, while the racing harnesses are built to a much more recent - and much stronger - spec (sorry for the lack of details - I can't find the files right now). I bought Crow's, and am very confident that they can take much more abuse than my body can. If they break, I'm probably toast.

There is no doubt that Hooker and Schroth make some fine harnesses. But so does Crow, to a better spec, and for less than half (about a third) the money. This is one case where you really can save money and get a product that is far more than adequate.

Paul
 
What's the difference?

So what's the difference between Hooker, Crow, etc and Van's seatbelts?
I am building a 9-A, so no acrobatics. Any reason to spend the extra money? Also, do I need 5 point or is 4 point OK?
 
craigvince said:
So what's the difference between Hooker, Crow, etc and Van's seatbelts?
I am building a 9-A, so no acrobatics. Any reason to spend the extra money? Also, do I need 5 point or is 4 point OK?
Click to expand...

All depends on your "landings"-especially the last one you make in that plane!:D
 
awkward

Mine and Carols experience,,,,,, we have Hookers in the RV8 'Borrowed Horse'.
They are bulky and awkward to use. I am going to try on Pauls next time we see him. If the Crows are better and easer to use. I will have Some RED Hookers for sale.
 
seat belt choices

After seeing Paul's Crow belts, I bought Crow belts a year ago for our RV7a, and have been very pleased. I ordered them 4 inches longer than their standard length, 2 inches per side. When you order, tell them they are for an experimental RV and they will ask some questions, like do you want the size of the hole in the metal piece that connects to the airplane to match the RV size. I forget the dimensions.

EDIT: I specified 2 inch belts. The following link is the 5 point belt:

http://www.crowenterprizes.com/shop...raint+Systems&prod=50"+BELTS:+ROTARY+KAM+LOCK
 
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Not Quite.

born2fly said:
We are all supposed to fly our experimentals in accordance with FAR 91.205, in which I read that I must have:
"91.205(b)(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older."


Can anyone explain this situation to me?
Click to expand...
FAR part 91.205 applies to "Standard Certificated Aircraft"
Experimental aircraft are only required to comply with 91.205 during night or IFR operations per your operating limitations.
 
I just received some Crow harnesses for my 7. The quality of workmanship is outstanding. They were custom made and I had them in about 8 days, and that was over the Thanksgiving holiday. They were 3" lap belt with pull-up adjustment, 2" crotch and "Y" harness, sewn in shoulder pads, 1/4" mounting holes and a camloc buckle. The "Y" has an adjustment on the end attaching to the harness cable. I believe the lap belts are 55" and not sure what the overall length of the harness strap is.
 
Crow Belts

Paul,
What combination of Crow restraints did you select? The Crow product line looks good, and I'm considering putting them in my 8 when the time comes.

SFI Foundation or FIA rules are used in auto racing (depending on the race series/governing body (NHRA uses SFI, Formula 1 uses FIA, etc.). SFI 16.1 covers driver retraint assemblies; 16.5 covers stock car driver restraint assemblies.

The SFI website (http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html) also reminds us that "Restraints must be maintained, inspected, and replaced or rewebbed every two years because they degenerate from exposure to the elements and over time. Prolonged exposure of seat belt webbing and thread to sunlight can cause degradation of the fibers and loss of restraint integrity. The rate at which the breaking strength of the webbing decreases with outdoor exposure is illustrated in the graph below. The webbing used in motorsports restraints is typically made with DuPont Nylon 6-6 or a similar product. According to the data, the webbing loses about half of its strength in one year."

In other words, belt replacement should be a routine maintenance item if you're serious about safety.

Regards,
Mike
 
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Which style - "Y" vs "V"

The Crows are available in either style. What are the advantages of "Y" or "V" style belts?

Thanks
 
Mel said:
FAR part 91.205 applies to "Standard Certificated Aircraft"
Experimental aircraft are only required to comply with 91.205 during night or IFR operations per your operating limitations.
Click to expand...

NOW I think I'm getting it. My op limits are (abbreviated):
(6) Day VFR only
(7) night/IFR per 91.205 after testing
(8) instruments and equipment under 91.205 to be inspected/maintained per part 91

So the interpretation is that only the night/IFR stuff is applicable, not the rest of 91.205.

This makes me feel a lot better about using automotive belts, as does the other information in the posts. Thanks everyone.

G.
 
I bought "stock"

Allen231ah said:
Paul, do you remember what length belts you ordered for your -8
Click to expand...


To be honest, when I ordered my Crow's, I had only heard of one other person that had used them, and it seems that I kind of got in on the ground floor in terms of using them in our RV's. It was after I bought mine that they started addressing the RV market, and offering a lot of different options (I sure wish I could have the "pull up" waist belts!), so I really don't know what length I bought - it was whatever they were offering. 55" does seem to ring a bell.....

Paul
 
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