[luke42179]

I've been looking at RV's for sale for a few weeks now and I think I'm seeing a trend. It seems like the older the RV is, the less it is worth (all other things being equal such as motor time and avionics).

Whereas, an older Piper or Mooney appears to actually increase in value over time (again, all things being equal).

Is my observation accurate? If you correct for engine time and any upgrades, has your RV increased or decreased in value over time after completion?

I need to factor this into my cost-to-own calculations. I hope to be joining the prestigious ranks of RV-owners soon . . . but need to go into this with both eyes open (and one on the wallet) .

Thanks!

 

[Louise Hose]

Overall, they increase

Mikey's builder, Mike Seager, once told me how much he sold the plane for in 1992. And, I knew the price of the two most recent exchanges. The value of this very early, slow-built RV-6 has dramatically increased over the years (while the engine and airframe have also increased a lot). I don't remember Mike's number but it was far less than most simple RV-4s go for today.

The older ones may cost less than the modern ones but I think you would find that the newer ones are typically better built, less "banged up", and cleaner than the older ones. And, the older ones were a lot cheaper to build.

 

[Geico266]

And, the older ones were a lot cheaper to build.

Bingo!

Engine, prop, panel, paint, and build quality, if you buy wisely you will have made a good investment.

 

[John Clark]

Prices

<snip>
Whereas, an older Piper or Mooney appears to actually increase in value over time (again, all things being equal).

Well, sort of. There are a bunch of "market factors" in the prices of used production airplanes. I have owned a C-182 and a B-55 Baron in the past and have watched the numbers.

In the example of the 182, I paid $46k for it in reasonable condition. Over the next 8 years I flew it, upgraded a few things and painted it. I mentally "wrote off" the upgrades and paint as maintenance. I sold it for $60K. Without doing the math, I suppose that after inflation that was about a wash. But I had a nice airplane to fly the whole time. Right now, the same airplane has a "book" of $78K. But we have another big factor in all of this. A new 182 costs something north of $360K. I know, I know it has a G-1000 panel and a bunch of bells and whistles. But it is the same airframe. That increase in price has to be a factor in the used market.

In the case of RVs, the history isn't that long and there hasn't been a monster inflation in the kit price. Also it is, indeed, a homebuilt and the prices are going to be based more on quality of construction, condition and component times.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[jmartinez443]

I need to factor this into my cost-to-own calculations. I hope to be joining the prestigious ranks of RV-owners soon . . . but need to go into this with both eyes open (and one on the wallet) .

Thanks!

I think you should go into this project fully expecting to loose your ***. What's that old saying? "how do you make a small fortune in aviation? start with a big one".

This is not an inexpensive hobby, and there is absolutely no justification for it other than the joy you will derive from it. Run the numbers on what you think owning an RV will cost you, then double it and you will be in the ballpark. If that makes you uncomfortable, you may want to rethink the plane ownership thing.

Just my $.02

 

[luke42179]

Run the numbers on what you think owning an RV will cost you, then double it and you will be in the ballpark.
Just my $.02

You make it sound as though you need more money than sense to own an airplane.

What costs caught you by surprise?

 

[morlino]

Run the numbers on what you think owning an RV will cost you, then double it and you will be in the ballpark.

I've found that pi is generally a very good multiplier for estimates of both time and money. I use it all the time at work when people ask me how long something is going to take or how much something is going to cost. Seems to work for the RV too.

What costs caught you by surprise?

So far my biggest "I can't believe I just spent that much money on that" moment during the build process was when I spent $100 on a an order from McMaster that consisted entirely of scotchbrite and emery cloth.

 

[jmartinez443]

You make it sound as though you need more money than sense to own an airplane.

What costs caught you by surprise?

You absolutely need more money than sense. None of this was a surprise. I went into this knowing full well that it was a silly "investment".

QB airframe =~ 25K
Tools =~ 3k (and counting)
Engine (io360) =~ 22K
FWF =~ 5K
Instruments =~ 10K (guesstimate for a basic VFR bird, but applying my own logic I'll probably be closer to 20K)
Interior =~ 2K
Paint =~ 10K

Then the fun starts:
Hangar =~ 36K (@300/mo for 10 years)
Fuel =~ 40K (assuming you fly 100 hrs/yr for 10 yrs at $4/gal)
Maintenance =~ no clue add a few bucks here
Insurance =~ 15k (assuming $1500/yr, YMMV)

Loops and rolls =~ priceless

So, assuming you hold on to your bird for a decade, you will have a mid-time engined, homebuilt. You will have spent about 170K. I have no clue what your plane will be worth then but it sure is not gonna be 170K.

Now, the enjoyment you derived from those ten years worth of fun will be priceless.

 

[RV10Rob]

Don't forget to add the opportunity cost. Even a meager 5% return on the cost of an $80,000 airplane is $4,000/year.

 

[John Clark]

Just do it...

Loops and rolls =~ priceless
So, assuming you hold on to your bird for a decade, you will have a mid-time engined, homebuilt. You will have spent about 170K. I have no clue what your plane will be worth then but it sure is not gonna be 170K.

Now, the enjoyment you derived from those ten years worth of fun will be priceless.

You are so right! I might add the feeling you get taxiing in at Oshkosh the first time or the spectacular views flying across the country. Also, when you are sitting on the porch at an advanced age you don't have to play the "shoulda coulda woulda" game.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[brayski98]

Whereas, an older Piper or Mooney appears to actually increase in value over time (again, all things being equal).

Think about new airplanes. Or even those that are recent vintage (i.e. 90's). The Cessna's and Piper's are not increasing in value. The 50's,60's, & 70's might be. A new 182 is $360k and I'll bet in 5 years it will be worth less.

When I started looking at RV-6A's in 2002, fying ones were typically around $50k-$60k. I just bought a flying one with 600 hours TTSN on everything and steam guages for $55k. The previous owner paid $60k six years ago.

When people are surpised that I own an airplane, I remind them that it cost less than a new Porsche, Corvette, some BMW's. And I expect that it will retain much more of its value in 5 years than any of those. (Plus more fun)

You'll never justify the cost, but you will the enjoyment and uniqueness.

 

[SvingenB]

Don't forget to add the opportunity cost. Even a meager 5% return on the cost of an $80,000 airplane is $4,000/year.

This makes no sense, because "It is better to live rich, than to die rich"

 

[mcphersn]

So far my biggest "I can't believe I just spent that much money on that" moment during the build process was when I spent $100 on a an order from McMaster that consisted entirely of scotchbrite and emery cloth.[/QUOTE]

I ended up spending over $70 for a hinge pin because ACS sent it to me taped to a 4 foot long 1X2. Live and learn...

 

[Bevan]

Opportunity cost?

Don't forget to add the opportunity cost. Even a meager 5% return on the cost of an $80,000 airplane is $4,000/year.

I hear this from time to time and its wrong at the personal level (it's OK if your talking about a business or government entity). The statement assumes that the only thing money is good for is basic necessities and making more money. That would indeed be a boring life. Doing nothing all through life would be the ultimate opportunity lost.

Bevan

 

[RV10Rob]

I hear this from time to time and its wrong at the personal level (it's OK if your talking about a business or government entity). The statement assumes that the only thing money is good for is basic necessities and making more money. That would indeed be a boring life. Doing nothing all through life would be the ultimate opportunity lost.

Bevan

The statement isn't wrong any more than building a tip-up vs. a slider is wrong. I'm not saying you should consider saving your money so you can be buried with it. The $130k I'm planning on spending building my -10, at a reasonable 5% inflation-adjusted return, would be around $345k in 20 years. I'm sure I could get quite a bit of enjoyment out of that. It's just another consideration. You can look at my signature to know what decision I made.

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

I hear this from time to time and its wrong at the personal level (it's OK if your talking about a business or government entity). The statement assumes that the only thing money is good for is basic necessities and making more money. That would indeed be a boring life. Doing nothing all through life would be the ultimate opportunity lost.

Bevan

It is absolutely correct at the personal level. If you're spending $80K on an airplane, that's $80K (plus the exponentially more compounded interest) that's not going into your retirement, your kids college fund, other things in life that have higher priorities, or even an RV build/purchase that you could better afford later after earning some compounded interest first.

To simply say that opportunity costs prevent you from having an interesting life suggests only that you are unwilling to defer instant gratification now for greater gratification at some later point in life. Definitely spend money so that you can enjoy life now, but go into it with your eyes open. You are merely fooling yourself about the total costs if you're not considering opportunity cost.

 

[asav8tor]

Don't forget to add the opportunity cost. Even a meager 5% return on the cost of an $80,000 airplane is $4,000/year.

If the US dollar keeps falling you might be able to buy a RV today for 80K. Sell it in the future overseas and get more than a 5% return.

 

[Ron B.]

mcphersn
I still think ACS sends out there goods in a manner to cost as much as possible, in return freight companies bring in there (ACS) goods free of charge??? Many times freight comes in two boxes instead of one from them.

 

[SvingenB]

The statement isn't wrong any more than building a tip-up vs. a slider is wrong. I'm not saying you should consider saving your money so you can be buried with it. The $130k I'm planning on spending building my -10, at a reasonable 5% inflation-adjusted return, would be around $345k in 20 years. I'm sure I could get quite a bit of enjoyment out of that. It's just another consideration. You can look at my signature to know what decision I made.

But that is 20 years gone, 25 % of your entire life At 40, the probability of even being alive the next 20 years is only 94%. At 50 it is 86%, at 60 it is 66%. Pure statistics but it clearly shows that postponing things 20 years in life is more like playing russian roulette in terms of odds

 

[Geico266]

I just bought a flying one with 600 hours TTSN on everything and steam gages for $55k. The previous owner paid $60k six years ago.

How many hours did the PO put on it? Divide that by the $5K he "lost" My guess is less than $15 / hour. Not too bad. I'd rent an RV for $15 / hour dry.

 

[Chris RV6-A]

Cost of Flying vs. boating

Besides an RV6A my wife and I sail on the Great Lakes during the summer and live aboard our sailboat.
Aircraft parts are no more expensive than boat parts, but both are expensive.
We solved that problem. We don't talk dollars we talk boat units/aircraft units. A unit is $100 dollars. Thus, psychologically 4 or 5 boat or aircraft units here or there doesn't seem quite as bad, as we love and enjoy both of these activities. Living well is the best revenge.

Chris
RV6A
N613LE

 

[John Clark]

Cost code

Besides an RV6A my wife and I sail on the Great Lakes during the summer and live aboard our sailboat.
Aircraft parts are no more expensive than boat parts, but both are expensive.
We solved that problem. We don't talk dollars we talk boat units/aircraft units. A unit is $100 dollars. Thus, psychologically 4 or 5 boat or aircraft units here or there doesn't seem quite as bad, as we love and enjoy both of these activities. Living well is the best revenge.

Chris
RV6A
N613LE

I like it ! My other interest is collector cars. The terminology in the car hobby seems to be "large" ($1000.) "What did he pay for that?" "85 large." much more civil somehow.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[brayski98]

Previous owner

How many hours did the PO put on it? Divide that by the $5K he "lost" My guess is less than $15 / hour. Not too bad. I'd rent an RV for $15 / hour dry.

The previous owner put on about 400 hours. He also did some maintenance/repairs as well. But the cost per hour was low. If the airplane only loses $5k in value over the next 6 years, I'd be ecstatic.

 

[Captain Avgas]

Think about new airplanes. Or even those that are recent vintage (i.e. 90's). The Cessna's and Piper's are not increasing in value. The 50's,60's, & 70's might be. A new 182 is $360k and I'll bet in 5 years it will be worth less.

In reality, on average, statistics show that a new Cessna 182 will depreciate (in adjusted dollar terms) for approximately 5 years on a slowing basis (ie most depreciation in the first year). At approximately 6 years it bottoms out and will then very slowly begin an appreciation (in adjusted dollar terms) which continues indefinitely. It depends of course on how the aircraft is maintained...we're talking an average plane here.

The reason a Cessna 182 eventually begins to appreciate is due to the rapidly rising labor costs and the fact that they are basically handbuilt. This ensures that the new aircraft prices will rise beyond normal inflation. Rapidly rising new prices then puts upward pressure on used prices.

As for RVs. As they get older the price differential between initially well constructed examples and the "bombs" becomes very apparent. Nothing looks more tired and less appealing than a 10 year old poorly constructed amateur built aircraft.

A 10 years old Cessna 182 will trade in a relatively narrow price range because all Cessna's start life of equal quality. The same can scarcely be said of RVs.

 

[luke42179]

I hate to say it, but certified aircraft are also held to a higher standard. I've seen some experimental aircraft conditional inspection sign-offs that are a joke. The annual that a certificated airplane goes through seems to, in reality, require that those aircraft are just better maintained (on average for flying aircraft) because they have to be or they're grounded.

So going back to my original question, does a flying, 2nd hand RV gain or lose value over time, it appears that they do. Though they probably lose less value if they're well built and well maintained, but still lose value. Agree/disagree?

 

[designerX]

An aircraft is worth what someone will pay.

luke42179,

Your question depends on the particular aircraft and the future market conditions. An aircraft whether GA or Experimental is worth what someone will pay. As for RVs and recent history, most buyers pay more than the parts are worth and the plane appreciates if it's well built and maintained. We don't know if the current historical trend will continue.

Stan

 

[nucleus]

Besides an RV6A my wife and I sail on the Great Lakes during the summer and live aboard our sailboat.
Aircraft parts are no more expensive than boat parts, but both are expensive.
We solved that problem. We don't talk dollars we talk boat units/aircraft units. A unit is $100 dollars. Thus, psychologically 4 or 5 boat or aircraft units here or there doesn't seem quite as bad, as we love and enjoy both of these activities. Living well is the best revenge.

Chris
RV6A
N613LE

Around here an AMU (Aviation Maintenance Unit) is $1000. It is funny how on a certified aircraft it works as a whole number.

Hans