Rallylancer122
Well Known Member
I've heard rumors of an expulsive deice system for the RV10, but google can't seem to find any information. Does anyone have any details on this?
I've heard rumors of an expulsive deice system for the RV10, but google can't seem to find any information. Does anyone have any details on this?
Therm-X De-Icing has it.
"Therm-X consists of a graphite foil laminate applied to the leading edge of the wing and horizontal stabilizer. Electronic heating elements embedded within the laminate are powered by a 70 volt/100 amp alternator."
It is reported to be $15K
Note it is a thermal solution and my concern would be ice forming behind the thermal strips.
But.......
The small protrusions, canopy, prop, and tail will ice up first. A tail plane stall due to ice will most likely not be recoverable.
I suggest, know what weather conditions ice will form and don't fly near them.
Agree with Mike D - get your IFR and learn Wx. You’ll be a safer pilot.
Best icing procedure, avoid it. There is extensive testing done to certify a aircraft for FIKI, it's not something to be undertaken by a amateur, it'll give you a false sense of security.
So the wing is supposedly protected, what about the prop and the vertical and horizontal surfaces?
Yes. The past known RV10 de-ice system has had some design improvements to be re-introduce into the market.
There is a guy on here who installed the Therm-X system in his RV-14 and has said it was not without issues. He installed an expulsion de-ice system using actuators in his RV-10. He just started flying in the last year i believe. Last i spoke to him the system in the rv-10 was not perfect and he’s adding something like ice sheild to the leading edge to try and help the actuators expel the ice. He has some install information in his builders log, and the modifications look extensive.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=NorrisAir&project=2673&category=12847
This is for known icing conditions?
§ 91.527 Operating in icing conditions.
(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a powerplant installation; or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system or wing, except that takeoffs may be made with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks if authorized by the FAA.
(b) No pilot may fly under IFR into known or forecast light or moderate icing conditions, or under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions, unless -
(1) The aircraft has functioning deicing or anti-icing equipment protecting each rotor blade, propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface, and each airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
(2) The airplane has ice protection provisions that meet section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23; or
(3) The airplane meets transport category airplane type certification provisions, including the requirements for certification for flight in icing conditions.
(c) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly an airplane into known or forecast severe icing conditions.
(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.
This is for known icing conditions?
To me the regs are a bit unclear. It is clear that a pilot can use data other than the forecast itslef to exempt the restriction of flight into "Forecasted Icing." The regs state that flight into known or foretasted icing conditions (at least mild or moderate) requires functional deice equipment (with a detailed list of that equip). It THEN states that the deice equipment meet the requirements of section 34 of part 23. However, part 23 expressly excludes EAB aircraft, so somewhat unclear if that applies to EAB aircraft in this case. Even if it is the case that it applies, no certification is required; Only that the deice equipment meets the specifications called out in section 34. Except for transport category aircraft, there is no mention of a requirement for an aircraft to be "certified for FIKI" when flying in icing conditions.
Everybody keeps saying that a plane must be certified for FIKI, yet there is nothing in the regs that states that, with the exception of transport category aircraft. Cetainly an aircraft that is certified for FIKI has met section 34, but that does not mean it is the only way to be legal under the regs.
However, one strange thing I have found is that one time when I did encounter icing in my -10, the wings had pretty significant layer at the outer half of the wing but zero on the inner half. I was so intrigued that I continued for a while to watch. I could even see precipitation collecting outboard but melting off inboard. I have a picture somewhere in my collection.
THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION.
The only answer that I can come up with is that I have an unplanned benefit that my inner leading edge is warmed by air exiting the shark gills. Cray cray isn't it?
What you observed was most likely a ‘heat reservoir’ effect. If you took off and climbed into icing conditions all that warm gas in contact with the inboard leading edge kept ice from forming there. I recall DC9’s (iirc) had the opposite problem: They could descend from the flight levels (cold fuel) and land at San Jose (warm), and promptly have frost over all the wing tank areas.
.....The result is 8,000 watts of digitally controlled energy coursing through the heaters...
From the NTSB reports I have read, you have seconds to recognize icing and make positive movements to get out of it.
According to the regs, you may be right…but do you want to be dead right?
I fly a FIKI aircraft for work and have seen ice buildup faster than you can imagine. Wing anti ice is not going to be of much use if the tail plane accumulates ice first…
The only winning move is not to play. Avoid icing and if encountered, get out…
To me the regs are a bit unclear. It is clear that a pilot can use data other than the forecast itslef to exempt the restriction of flight into "Forecasted Icing." The regs state that flight into known or foretasted icing conditions (at least mild or moderate) requires functional deice equipment (with a detailed list of that equip). It THEN states that the deice equipment meet the requirements of section 34 of part 23. However, part 23 expressly excludes EAB aircraft, so somewhat unclear if that applies to EAB aircraft in this case. Even if it is the case that it applies, no certification is required; Only that the deice equipment meets the specifications called out in section 34. Except for transport category aircraft, there is no mention of a requirement for an aircraft to be "certified for FIKI" when flying in icing conditions.
Everybody keeps saying that a plane must be certified for FIKI, yet there is nothing in the regs that states that, with the exception of transport category aircraft. Cetainly an aircraft that is certified for FIKI has met section 34, but that does not mean it is the only way to be legal under the regs.
Technically since § 91.527(b) uses the disjunctive "or", only one of the three clauses is required to be true to be compliant with this subsection. So having "functioning deicing or anti-icing equipment" protecting the indicated places is sufficient and you don't have to worry about Section 34 or transport category certification provisions for purposes of this subsection. Not sure if there are any other provisions about FIKI, but this section lets you off the hook with the right equipment. Having said that, I agree that FIKI is a bad idea for EAB.
Though it could be nice to have deicing equipment for inadvertent flight into icing conditions.
“Inadvertent”… most of these occurrences are “preventable”.
Agreed, but it may be the nonpreventable one that kills you...
“Inadvertent”… most of these occurrences are “preventable”.
Anti- and de-ice systems have been developed for good reasons, so why not talk about them for our RVs?
Yep, most occurrences are "preventable", just stay on the ground and play the armchair pilot, or fly so little, in perfect no wind no clouds conditions, staying around your well known patch.
Or go places and use your RV as means of transportation, and not only as a toy.
I almost reached 500hrs in 2022, including a westward then eastward crossing of the NA, and a little round tour of Canada, Alaska, and the US. A few of these hours had to be flown in clouds, and guess what, ice was encountered a few times as well.
As you must know, forecasts are what they are, and if you start picking up ice despite none shown on the weather charts... you then apply the techniques taught and surely known by yourself and all IFR rated pilots, e.g. quantify the rate of ice build-up and then decide to, turnaround, continue and climb or descend if possible at all, and of course, get out of the conditions.
Luckily the airfoil as used on RVs can take some ice, I'm sure others will attest to this.
Anti- and de-ice systems have been developed for good reasons, so why not talk about them for our RVs?
I have owned FIKI airplanes and planes with no de-ice. My FIKI P210 (boots) lost 40 knots of indicated airspeed even with prop heat, windshield de-ice, and blowing the boots every minute. The ice was so bad that I was losing 100 FPM at full throttle. My Cirrus SR22 with TKS was almost as bad. My Baron with TKS could fly through freezing rain without a problem. In bad ice I maybe lose 5-10 knots indicated airspeed. I trusted that system in any weather. My Glasair III did not like ice at all and the tail was really critical. Out about 1/2" of ice on it one day climbing through the clouds. Cost me 30 knots of indicated airspeed.
The RV wing is about as good as you will get when it comes to carrying ice. I'm not advocating flying in ice, but I can't think of a better experimental wing if I get stuck in ice.
While I agree with those that say "just avoid it", you would park your plane the majority of the winter here in NE Indiana if you totally avoided ice. Having some form of de-ice (if even only the prop) is a tool you can use to get you out of the ice. Ice layers are usually only 3k thick or so. The key is to know where the warm air is and the tops of the clouds. Most of the time you are only in the ice maybe 3-5 minutes which should be no problem.
I have agreed to buy the RV-14 that was mentioned here. It has Therm-x which is not supported anymore, but if it works it is a tool. If nothing else, the hot prop ensures that I can at least make full power. Hopefully, someone comes up with a good de-ice system that is reliable. I will fly over the mountains at night IMC in a single engine plane and not even think about it twice, but if there is forecast ice I will avoid that area as I have witnessed in the P210 how quickly things can get ugly.
I have owned FIKI airplanes and planes with no de-ice. My FIKI P210 (boots) lost 40 knots of indicated airspeed even with prop heat, windshield de-ice, and blowing the boots every minute. The ice was so bad that I was losing 100 FPM at full throttle. My Cirrus SR22 with TKS was almost as bad. My Baron with TKS could fly through freezing rain without a problem. In bad ice I maybe lose 5-10 knots indicated airspeed. I trusted that system in any weather. My Glasair III did not like ice at all and the tail was really critical. Out about 1/2" of ice on it one day climbing through the clouds. Cost me 30 knots of indicated airspeed.
The RV wing is about as good as you will get when it comes to carrying ice. I'm not advocating flying in ice, but I can't think of a better experimental wing if I get stuck in ice.
While I agree with those that say "just avoid it", you would park your plane the majority of the winter here in NE Indiana if you totally avoided ice. Having some form of de-ice (if even only the prop) is a tool you can use to get you out of the ice. Ice layers are usually only 3k thick or so. The key is to know where the warm air is and the tops of the clouds. Most of the time you are only in the ice maybe 3-5 minutes which should be no problem.
I have agreed to buy the RV-14 that was mentioned here. It has Therm-x which is not supported anymore, but if it works it is a tool. If nothing else, the hot prop ensures that I can at least make full power. Hopefully, someone comes up with a good de-ice system that is reliable. I will fly over the mountains at night IMC in a single engine plane and not even think about it twice, but if there is forecast ice I will avoid that area as I have witnessed in the P210 how quickly things can get ugly.
Flying these airplanes in know icing is an unnecessary risk, imo.
The RV wing is about as good as you will get when it comes to carrying ice. I'm not advocating flying in ice, but I can't think of a better experimental wing if I get stuck in ice.
Flying these airplanes in know icing is an unnecessary risk, imo.
It seems to me that the best deice system would be a water cooled engine with the “radiator” being the leading edges of the wing and tail. You could close up the cowl almost completely eliminating all cooling drag. No TKS fluid, hi power alternators, and always on. I just wonder if there would be too little or too much heat rejection using the leading edge.