R

RV7ator

Well Known Member
Do any of you know of RV (or experimental in general) histories, in the vein of Vref, that provide valuation estimators or that track and compile sale prices? I'm particularly interested in the spread between capital built in vs. sale price; in other words, what's a builder's time worth? My focus would exclude the pricey award winners, minimalist ships, incomplete projects, and dogs.

John Siebold
 
Don't know if it helps, but my builder's risk insurance values build time at $15/hour.

Steve Zicree
RV4
 
Not very much

Speaking of experimental airplanes in general the builder's time is not worth very much. Many experimentals will only sell for the price of the parts. A well built RV will often sell for more, but it is difficult to generalise too much. Builder personal preferences (in paint scheme and panel contents & layout) often are a significant factor. Good RV-6s (inc As) are difficult to find and seem to be selling for $60 to $75K. I'm guessing that is not far above the build cost. RV-8s seem to be the hot property right now with some selling for over $100K. A QB 8 with 200 hp and a well stuffed panel could easily cost $80K - probably more. I believe a QB will take 1000 hours of anyone's time, so it seems that, at best, $20 an hour might be possible. RV-7s cost about the same as 8s to build and seem to be selling for a little less (but not many onthe market yet). Haven't really been looking at RV-9s, who knows what the market for RV-10s will be (I suspect it will be bouyant). So, overall for RVs, $15 an hour may be a slightly generous estimate. For most experimentals you may not recover the price of the parts.

Pete
 
I disagree. I sold my RV-6A for $72,000.00. It had 417TTAF - Lycoming O-320 E2A 150hp, 417SMOH by certified shop, TTSN 2988, Avia Variable Speed Metal Prop, 135TT since new - KX155 flip flop nav/com with glide slope - KLN35A panel mounted GPS - KT76A transponder - TruTrak Digitrack -Altrak 2 axis Autopilot.

In addition I helped my good buddy, Terry Cole, sell his RV-6A. Terry died at age 52 shortly after the sale. Terry's RV-6A sold for $73,000.00, and had an 0-320, 160hp - TTSN 2400 - SMOH 454 - Senenich Fixed Pitch Metal Prop 454 hours since new, a KT 760 Digital Transponder, a KLX135A digital GPS/Comm, a Navaid Single Axis Autopilot (wing leveler) with GPS tracking. It also has a panel mounted Skyforce C III moving map, and a VM 1000 engine monitor.

Russ Daves
N710RV (Reserved)
RV-10 Fuselage with Tailcone Attached
 
Number Crunching

Interesting replies. Doug Reeves, are you paying attention? Smells like a business opportunity; use the VAF website to solicite and sell the data.

Let's do metrics! See what that produces while I wait for others to respond.

Root among the Van's numbers on time to build, and you get 1,600-1,800 hours for a standard prepunched kit, QB's ~ 1/2 the time or 800-900. The QB price delta is $8K, which yields 9-10 $/hr. Four years ago I asked Ken how much time the QB might save on the -7; he opined 4-500 hours, and didn't think it was a good deal: 18-20 $/hr.

Personal validity test: it took me 1,200 hours to rivet the metal together, and another 1,200 hours for engine/firewall forward, systems, and plastics of various types. Painting added yet another 150 hours. I have $75K into it. Having built one, I'm sure I can knock out another in Van's time of 1,800 hrs and achieving the level of assembly the QB represents would be about 700 hrs.

So? 8,000/700 = 11.43 $/hr, the remaining 1,100 hours at the same rate is ~ $12,600, for a total labor "cost" of $20,600. Could I sell my ship for 75 capital plus 20K labor = $95K? I doubt it. It is a nice IFR ship, told me by those who have nothing to gain from stroking my ego, but I can't take my ego to the bank.

So let's have some more actuals!

John Siebold
 
Don't get too hung up with the time to build or even what the parts cost.
As with everything else, the value of something is determined by what people will actually pay for it. And that price doesn't necessarily depend on how much time was put into it.

Because RV's can be built in different ways and with different equipment, the prices are obviously going to vary. But from what I've seen in the past year or so, it looks like completed and flying aircraft go from about $55K to about $105K.
Naturally, the used engine installations and minimal VFR instruments and options, and basic (or no) paint bring the lesser numbers.
The RV's with brand new (and low hour) Lycomings (it doesn't seem to matter if it's Lycoming or a reputable clone), CS props, and with full panel IFR are going to sell for over $100K.
Any "non-standard" RV with auto engine conversions seem to take a big hit when offered for resale unless the buyer is actually looking for one built with an auto engine.

I used to appraise cars (for the FBI, no less, that were seized and being put up for auction, and lot's of them were old restored classics), and in doing so, I always started with what similar examples had actually sold for recently and then added or subtracted for condition and options. It never mattered how many hours someone put into restoration, or even the money put into it.
All that mattered was how much it was anticipated that someone would pay for the car.

As far as QB built aircraft go, I don't personally think the added initial cost is what "might" allow a QB aircraft to bring more. If QB built RV's end up at higher resale prices (I don't know if they do or not), I think that would be because of the implied peace of mind that a buyer might have knowing that he is buying an RV that was (structurally) built by a "real" airplane factory that Van himself "approved" of rather than an individual.
I know, I know, there's no practical difference (and if so, an inspection would show it). I'm just talking about a value that "emotion" might (and I stress might) add to the sale.

I'm really interested in this subject, because I'm an older builder who knows that I will likely end up selling mine way before I could wear it out. That's one reason why I ultimately decided to go with a QB kit and all new "universally accepted" type of equipment that almost all buyers would like seeing on a used RV they are considering buying.
 
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You guys are missing one important factor here. Go back and read the first entry in you aircraft log book. There should be a statement there to the effect that.."I certify that I built this aircraft for my own education and recreation." This means that you didn't build it for profit.
How much was the education and recreation worth?
Mel...DAR
 
Mel,

Loosing one's "shirt" on the sale of their home built is an "education" and bitch'n about it later is recreation. :D

I'm building what I want, the next owner, if there is one, can change whatever they want.
 
I agree 100%. When we built our house, people told us, "You'll never be able to sell a house like that." Our answer was, "We're not building it to sell, We're building it to live in!" After Ann and I are gone and our ashes are spread down the runway, the next person can do whatever they want. My RV is the same. It's what I want. TW/TU! :D
Mel...DAR
 
Mel,

I agree with you completely - but the question was what's a builder's time worth. IMHO not that much in $$ terms, compared with what you can earn at a regular job - and long may that continue to keep those seeking a fast buck away from our hobby.

Pete
 
Van's knows exactly what a builder's time is worth

"Every one" keeps saying the two (wing & fuselage) quick build kits will save you 1000 hours. Thus, $8,000 / 1000 = $8 / hr.

Simple math.
 
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