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alpinelakespilot2000

Well Known Member
As I'm trying to nail down an inspection date with my DAR (could be any day now), I've been trying to anticipate everything I can. My DAR comes with a very good reputation for doing thorough inspections, but is not, as far as I know, really familiar with RVs. That got me to thinking... are there any RV-specific items that DARs often question during inspections?. Here are three that I've run across in previous forum threads:

1. No rudder pedal return springs (just surfaced as in issue for someone here on the forum this week).

2. The 1/4" or so of play in the trim tab when using manual elevator trim cable. Every indication I've seen is that this is just the way it is and that Van's confirms that.

3. Using electrical tape connecting the brake lines to the gear legs. (I've at least added an extra layer of strapping tape around the electrical tape just because I get tired of explaining to hangar visitors that electrical tape actually is per plans.)

Others? Also, would also be curious to know the best way to handle them. For these RV-specific items, will simply showing that you've built according to drawings usually make the issue go away?
 
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Flap-attach rod-ends

The standard rod ends that are supplied with the kit for attaching the pushrod to the flap are not very good. They are made with an integral mounting post that is not very strong, especially if spacer washers are required to help the pushrod fit in the fuselage hole. The main problem with them is that they lack the postive retention feature of a large washer that is normally used with rod ends.

One DAR in the SF area ALWAYS checks and remarks on these.

It is good to replace those with standard rod ends, with large washer, bolt, spacer sleave, and elastic locknut.

I posted a picture of mine on a previous thread.
 
FSDO Inspection

Here's what I need to 'fix' before they'll sign-off:

1. Make the wiggle in the manual trim tab go away.
2. Will have to raise the rudder stops. They felt that with slack rudder cables, they could conceivably go over the top of the rudder stops and compromise the rudder control. I'll drill out the rivets and take them up a bit.
3. I used nearly all Adel clamps on the engine mount but have/had about 6 zip ties holding wires in place. FSDO wants Adel clamps only.
4. The one high pressure brake line on the left seat brake pedals protrudes slightly over the left pedal. That has to be fixed.
5. Don't forget to safety tie the oil temp probe.
6. Put rubber boots on the end terminals on the back of the mag ignition switch.
7. I had single zip ties holding together two parallel ignition leads. FSDO wants the ignition leads separated so they won't chaf (probably not a bad idea).
8. Put a rubber cover over the metal tie-down bracket on the Odyssey battery to prevent possible shorting.
9. The ignition leads to the #1 and #2 cylinders need to be secured by an Adel Clamp on the side of the left/right baffles. FSDo was concerned the ignition lead was too long and would flap in the incoming wind-probably true.
10. Hinge at the base of the left and right seats need a pin that runs full length through the hinges and can be safety tied in the center.
11. Make certain that the safety ties on the prop bolts are PERFECT!
12. FSDO said that they'd have to check on whether the 3" N number was appropriate. I challenged them on this point, but they said they'd have to check.....
13. Carb Heat standoff bracket should be higher to avoid the arching bend of the cable as it approaches the carb heat lever.

The two biggies that gave me the NO were Items 1 and 2. The others are all doable with a bit of time.
 
Other

I dont have my paperwork handy, but one I recall, my painter didnt like it either was the offset VS attach plate.
There is a part of it that has oblong holes..both painter (an aircraft mechanic) and inspector thought I had made a big drilling error. Ensure a copy of that drawing is handy so you can ensure its clear Vans made the part with holes like that.

Other thing I recall was anywhere even the smallest wires were, he wanted a dab of rtv. Even if supported with adel clamps, zip ties etc, he likes rtv so it can bump, rub or vibrate against any edge or have enought slop to potentially get anywhere. A tube and a rubber glove fixed all that quickly.

Lastly, he had me run out and buy a bottle of liquid electrical tape. I thought it silly at the time, but it makes sense and a hundred hours later...I just used it on other connections. His concern was that things can wrattle loose and or tools can be dropped against the firewall and cause a short. I have the big aeroelectric fuses on the firewall (cant recall the name) and the solenoids etc. A brush of the post with the liquid electrical tape makes a really nice coating. It dries, thick and pliable...really cool. You can still see and inspect, but it would need to be peeled off to remove the nuts. Its almost like a wax when dry.

I have not heard of others requiring it...but it was a wise suggestion and I see the logic in it so I didnt fight him on it.
 
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jdiehl said:
Here's what I need to 'fix' before they'll sign-off:
1. Make the wiggle in the manual trim tab go away.
2. Will have to raise the rudder stops. They felt that with slack rudder cables, they could conceivably go over the top of the rudder stops and compromise the rudder control. I'll drill out the rivets and take them up a bit.
Click to expand...
Sounds exactly like the reason we need to find DARs who know RVs. 7000+ RVs flying with no record of these ever being issues. Let me know how you get that trim tab wiggle out, would you?
 
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Post DAR Names

Why don't you post the DAR's name and his home FSDO, good, bad, or indifferent? Then we can decide whether to employ them or another. Market forces are a great persuader. This is especially useful when "Can only land at your home airport." nonsense come to the fore.

John Siebold
 
Don't forget to safety wire the gascolater if you have one.
Vibration/stress loops in primer lines.
 
I dont understand...fill me in

Why can the FAA deny an airworthiness certificate?

This is EXPERIMENTAL category.


1. Make the wiggle in the manual trim tab go away.

Maybe I am testing the effects of "wiggle in the trim"

2. Will have to raise the rudder stops. They felt that with slack rudder cables, they could conceivably go over the top of the rudder stops and compromise the rudder control. I'll drill out the rivets and take them up a bit.

Maybe I am testing the effects of different types of rudder stops on this type of airplane.


3. I used nearly all Adel clamps on the engine mount but have/had about 6 zip ties holding wires in place. FSDO wants Adel clamps only.

Maybe I am testing the endurance of plastic zip ties in actual flight conditions.


4. The one high pressure brake line on the left seat brake pedals protrudes slightly over the left pedal. That has to be fixed.

Maybe i am testing the effects of pilots toes flexing a new type of hose.

bla bla bal ......ect

You get the picture?

If there is grounds for denying an airworthiness cert. then it is no longer EXPERIMENTAL.


5. Don't forget to safety tie the oil temp probe.
6. Put rubber boots on the end terminals on the back of the mag ignition switch.
7. I had single zip ties holding together two parallel ignition leads. FSDO wants the ignition leads separated so they won't chaf (probably not a bad idea).
8. Put a rubber cover over the metal tie-down bracket on the Odyssey battery to prevent possible shorting.
9. The ignition leads to the #1 and #2 cylinders need to be secured by an Adel Clamp on the side of the left/right baffles. FSDo was concerned the ignition lead was too long and would flap in the incoming wind-probably true.
10. Hinge at the base of the left and right seats need a pin that runs full length through the hinges and can be safety tied in the center.
11. Make certain that the safety ties on the prop bolts are PERFECT!
12. FSDO said that they'd have to check on whether the 3" N number was appropriate. I challenged them on this point, but they said they'd have to check.....
13. Carb Heat standoff bracket should be higher to avoid the arching bend of the cable as it approaches the carb heat lever.

The two biggies that gave me the NO were Items 1 and 2. The others are all doable with a bit of time.[/QUOTE]
 
"Maybe I am testing...."

Seems silly to include known failure or wear modes in the construction of an airplane. The ones that aren't so easily identified are plenty exciting enough.

Dave
 
DAR 'nitnoid' requirements and a DAR perspective

No one benefits when a plane goes down either in testing or years later in service. Hopefully most DAR's are using their accumulated experience and knowledge to spare you the pain and suffering, or even just inconvenience and future expense.

Most experimentals are never again looked at as closely as they are on their initial Airworthiness Inspection. Most builders are never again as receptive to tips and advice from others who have been there before.

Yes, there are some DAR's that are a pain. Most are reasonable but highly experienced guys you would enjoy hanging with. There may be a reason for their requests. There may be some who need to retire.

Some of our FAA DAR's are also the ones who arrive at the gruesome accident scenes trying to find out who/what/why it happened.

Paperwork is the primary interest of Oklahoma City. Safe airplanes are the goal of most DARs. Both are necessary. Remember, our public is very ignorant of most things aviation and the government is charged with protecting the public from us!

An example of a something I would not accept was the use of hardware store wood screws to hold an elevator on a wooden homebuilt. Sure, that may be what the Wright Brothers used, but I cannot sleep at night thinking of those screws letting go twenty years in the future. I have already had close ones killed when wings separated on downwind killing father and son. Do not want to contribute to that ever! I want to prevent it! ( I did not inspect that project)

The best pre-inspection advice is to get some other eyeballs on your project often. Before doing a critical operation or spending big money, run it by some experienced builders. Be open for suggestions and above all, do not become a lone-wolf/lone ranger off cloistered in your own little world.

Dr Edwards Demming, the father of the quality management movement said "profound knowledge always comes from the outside." Think on that principal and how you can learn from it.
 
Yes, some of us did become DAR's so we could help. :) Most of us focus on safety, from the initial flight to pointing out long term potential wear or hazardous practices. Most of us don't do this as a living. It's actually a lot of hard work on top of our already difficult day jobs, and a lot of potential liability. I have to tell you though that some of the "anti-authority" posts on this site any more have a number of us contributing less and less. As a DAR we are entrusted with making sure things are safe. I have yet to deny one, and have worked seen all kinds of mods. That's what experimental aviation is about. But there are practical limits, just like Vern pointed out in the above post. And we really are here to help. So, before it becomes anti-DAR, probaby search the threads for all of the DAR help responses, especially from Mel. :)

Vic
 
vic syracuse said:
So, before it becomes anti-DAR, probaby search the threads for all of the DAR help responses, especially from Mel. :)
Click to expand...
Yes, some thread drift going on here. I definitely did not start this thread to become a rant against DARs. In order to make this thread different from all the anti-DAR threads that already exist, I'm simply interested in RV-specific concerns that non-RV-familiar DARS have when inspecting RVS.
 
Helpful tip for non-RV familiar DAR

Respectfully show the DAR the plans and instructions for any contrary items he objects to and show him how you complied with the plans. Show him the 7600 flying RVs page. At most fields you can also show him a successfully flying RV and let him ask the owner if that has been a problem for him. This helps solve the non-familiarity problem.

I agree with Vic that sometimes I hesitate to post because I know my posts will get poked at. I often think to myself that I'll be poked on a particular post within 'x' minutes.

Many of the most experienced builders who have the best information have been run off the forums over the years because a fellow who has never bucked a rivet is rude or overbearing.
 
Vic, Mel, et.al.,
Not to divert off on a discussion of methods etc...

Just what are the "legal" limits of what a DAR or The FAA can require in terms of changes to an experimental design. After all, their is no type certificate, and I beleve that there is no expectation that you are certifying the aircraft as
"airworthy".

I'd be curious to hear a discussion of what is actually regulatory as opposed to what the various inspectors think is correct, or desireable.

Thanks
 
scsmith said:
The standard rod ends that are supplied with the kit for attaching the pushrod to the flap are not very good. They are made with an integral mounting post that is not very strong, especially if spacer washers are required to help the pushrod fit in the fuselage hole. The main problem with them is that they lack the postive retention feature of a large washer that is normally used with rod ends.

One DAR in the SF area ALWAYS checks and remarks on these.

It is good to replace those with standard rod ends, with large washer, bolt, spacer sleave, and elastic locknut.

I posted a picture of mine on a previous thread.
Click to expand...

So what is the actual service history of these. Ever seen failures?
 
I think I was taken incorrectly

I did not mean in any way to be anti-DAR!

First let me say that in all of my experiences I have never had a problem with the DAR that inspected my projects.

I even had the FAA inspect my first project and had no problem with them.

The problem that I see on the horizon is were is this going?

If it is not a commercial enterprise why the inspection?

Think out of the box with me a moment, I fly a plane that I built at my own judgment, with parts that I decided were capable of safe operation. When the FAA starts telling us that something is not airworthy who decides? think about it. There are some people here on this forum that fly with a lower quality parts selections in some areas than I feel are safe for "me" to fly with. There are others on this same forum that may feel some of the parts that I use are "unsafe".

So again I ask who decides? I hope not the FAA. How can we continue Experimenting?

I think that it is perfectly acceptable that a DAR point out things that "He" feels are unsafe. BUT he should not have the power to "deny" an airworthiness certificate.

I am not trying to start a war against the FAA or a DAR I am only asking questions that I have not heard answers for.
 
safety....or silly

Chino Tom said:
Don't forget to safety wire the gascolater if you have one.
......
Click to expand...

Please, tell me you can safety the Van's gascolator in less than 3 hours.
I tried several times, and not only were the holes in the 2 screws next to the firewall completely impossible to view, after threading the wire thru and pulling at a sharp angle to the next one, it broke anyway.
Blue loctite, 5 minutes later, done.
......now to find the guy who spec'd those tiny, slot head screws and give him some 'feedback'. :(
 
Auto conversion question

Just like any other engine.

On a Corvair Engine I required some fuel line mods.

On a Corvette Engine I requested a longer PRSU cooling hose to be installed with more slack as it was too tight a bend.
 
Wesael said:
I did not mean in any way to be anti-DAR!

First let me say that in all of my experiences I have never had a problem with the DAR that inspected my projects.

I even had the FAA inspect my first project and had no problem with them.

The problem that I see on the horizon is were is this going?

If it is not a commercial enterprise why the inspection?

Think out of the box with me a moment, I fly a plane that I built at my own judgment, with parts that I decided were capable of safe operation. When the FAA starts telling us that something is not airworthy who decides? think about it. There are some people here on this forum that fly with a lower quality parts selections in some areas than I feel are safe for "me" to fly with. There are others on this same forum that may feel some of the parts that I use are "unsafe".

So again I ask who decides? I hope not the FAA. How can we continue Experimenting?

I think that it is perfectly acceptable that a DAR point out things that "He" feels are unsafe. BUT he should not have the power to "deny" an airworthiness certificate.

I am not trying to start a war against the FAA or a DAR I am only asking questions that I have not heard answers for.
Click to expand...

Great questions. You may not like to hear this, but the DAR's actually do have the obligation to deny an airworthiness certificate when appropriate. But with that denial there is provided a list of things to be corrected. Most DAR's are DAR's because of their experience. They have seen a lot and are not really making "subjective" calls. Our job is not to stop experimenters at all. In fact, if we see something we haven't seen before, we could apply extra limits on the certificate such as a longer Phase I or a smaller test area, request some engineering data, etc., in lieu of a denial. Again, we are here to help. :)
 
I will add one more comment to this thread. I almost always show up knowing I am going to issue the certificate. By the time I actually arrive I have spent enough time through emails, phone calls, and paperwork to understand the attitude of the person (most important) and what they have done to insure they or someone else is ready to fly their airplane because THEY have done everything they can to insure it is in a condition for safe operation. I am only there for one more set of eyes and to insure the paperwork is all correct. I am not there to show I know more than them. In fact, I have met some that I am truly humbled by because of their experience and build quality. But so far, I always find something, mostly loose jam nuts, and it makes me feel good that the original reason I became a DAR is working. :) In 2 cases I know I found something that could have been catastrophic, and they were fixed without a denial.
 
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