[Sig600]

Gents,
A buddy of mine and I are tossing around the idea of buying our Boss's RV-6, and going 50/50 on a partnership.

In tossing generic details around we were trying to spitball the operating cost. Rounding up, we figured about $50/hour in fuel costs, but whats a realistic amount to sock away for maint. costs and unexpected stuff?

The motor is an 0-320 with about 800 hours on it, an I'll run it past TBO as long as oil analysis and compression checks are good, first hiccup I'll look to overhaul/replace.

 

[RV8iator]

Operating Expenses

The obvious ones are the debt service, (loan payments) if you are not going to pay cash,
insurance, on my 8 hull value 95k is about 1850/year
hangar, depends on where you live but from $100.00 to 400 a month is not unheard of,
taxes, if your state or county has ad velorum or property taxes. Mine in GA are about $500. annually

you can do all your own mtc except for the signing of the conditional inspection. I do my own and have an A&P double check EVERYTHING and he charges me less than $300.00.

replacement parts will vary wildly as needed. I've been flying my purchased 8 for 3 1/2 years now and have had very low mtc costs. Tires, tubes, alternator, filters.

Obviously, engine and prop overhauls are the big ticket items and some folks sock away an hourly premium to be ready and others just have to cough it up when the time comes. That's your decision to make with your partner.

 

[Ron Lee]

Fuel: 8 gallons/hr times local cost

Oil changes: ~$50 USD

Hangar cost: Check locally

Insurance: Depends but circa $2000 annually (call an agent to get better numbers)

Other stuff: Condition inspection, fix what breaks when it breaks. Tires, tubes, brake pads.

Final cost: what it is. What you get is something you can't buy.

 

[Sig600]

Got another buddy in our squadron that has a C-180, and wants to split his hangar (which runs him 225/month). So we're looking at $50 a piece.

As far as insurance, neither of us has any tailwheel time. Got friends in the insurance business that are looking into it for us.

We're looking at putting an operating cost on it, and we'd just be obligated to put $X into a savings account per flight hour for incidental big ticket items. X is what I'm trying to figure out.

Two F-18 pilots with an RV-6... what could go wrong?

 

[Jerry P. Sheppard]

My math....

Here is my math. Just ruff #'s for 1 month. This math gives me 15 hrs per month. Since I am on my own I simply eat the big stuff when it comes up. Key to all good maint plans - do a good post flt. Keep the plane clean and the problems will jump out at you. Do not let the to do list grow to over 1 item. Fix stuff or it WILL cost you more down the road. He may be your boss - but do the pre-buy. Or you WILL pay someday.

Payment 600
Fuel (15 Hrs) 500
Hanger 110
Insurance 105
XM 40
Parts 100


Per Month 1455
Hrs 15
$ Per Hr 97

 

[bkilby]

The F18 is alot easier to fly than the 6 at least the simulator is.

Got another buddy in our squadron that has a C-180, and wants to split his hangar (which runs him 225/month). So we're looking at $50 a piece.

As far as insurance, neither of us has any tailwheel time. Got friends in the insurance business that are looking into it for us.

We're looking at putting an operating cost on it, and we'd just be obligated to put $X into a savings account per flight hour for incidental big ticket items. X is what I'm trying to figure out.

Two F-18 pilots with an RV-6... what could go wrong?

 

[Dean Pichon]

To operate my RV-4....

...I deposit $550 per month into my "RV-4 Account". This amount remains unchanged since I finished the plane in 2001. It covers all aircraft related expenses including my EAA membership renewal. For me it works out to about $100 hr.

 

[WAM120RV]

A dufferent way?

A method often used in the Uk ( possibly USA as well), is to work out your annual ground fees first, by that I mean everthing you need to pay for before you fly

Example:

Hangarage.......... 2000
Insurance 2000
Permit renewal 400
Other fees 400

Total 4800 then divide this by 12 (months) 400 per month, then devide this by the number of owners so 200 per month.

Then work out the average fuel cost per hour, perhaps 50 per hour, then add say 25 per hour to this to buld a fund for your maintenance fund. That way whoever flies the most pays most for the maintenanace. The ground costs are shared equally.


I hope this helps.

Wam

 

[Mark7986]

Another way

The plane is payed for so we split Hanger, insurance, and cost of condition inspection. We feel all of those are just protecting our investment. A/C rent is figured on a dry airplane. The airplane is put away full of fuel, windshield cleaned and bugs removed from the plane. Then we figure an hourly rate and settle up when we do the condition inspection. If one of us don't fly, we end up with money in our pocket. We don't save for big items. We just put in a new autopilot and split the cost. We feel it just adds to our investment.

Mark
Fairmont MN
RV6

 

[twsurveyor]

Gents,
A buddy of mine and I are tossing around the idea of buying our Boss's RV-6, and going 50/50 on a partnership.

My RV-6A has 500 hours on it in 4 years. Based on that, my cost in round numbers are:

1) Fuel 125 hr x 8 gal/hr x $4.00/gal = $4000
2) Insurance/yr = $1200
3) Hangar/yr = $1800
4) Engine reserve = 125 hr x $6.00/hr = $750
5) Oil (changes & comsumption) = $200
6) Maintainence = 125 hr x $8.00 = $1000
7) Charts, Satilite service & subscriptions etc. $1000
______________________________________________________
TOTAL $9950/yr ($80/hr)

(Note that this does not include any notes or interest etc.)

Hope this helps!

 

[Sig600]

Thanks for all the info, I think we've got a good baseline to work from. The only big ticket item in the future is the overhaul on the engine. It's got 815 hours now. I figure if we can get another 1000 hours out of it, and contribute $20/hour, by the time the thing is run out we'll have a sizeable chunk of cash on hand. Plus that way, whoever flew it more, pays more. The rest of the costs we figure will be fixed. Always leave the plane full (thus paying for your gas) and the fixed expenses such as hangar and insurance we split down the middle. The insurance quote is what I'm worried about. Two guys with about 2200 hours each, mostly in military a/c, with zero tailwheel time.

Anyone see any loopholes or potential pitfalls that cost structure? Things like oil changes and incidentals would come out of the account paid into per flight hour.

 

[John Clark]

Reserves

Thanks for all the info, I think we've got a good baseline to work from. The only big ticket item in the future is the overhaul on the engine. It's got 815 hours now. I figure if we can get another 1000 hours out of it, and contribute $20/hour, by the time the thing is run out we'll have a sizeable chunk of cash on hand. Plus that way, whoever flew it more, pays more. The rest of the costs we figure will be fixed. Always leave the plane full (thus paying for your gas) and the fixed expenses such as hangar and insurance we split down the middle. The insurance quote is what I'm worried about. Two guys with about 2200 hours each, mostly in military a/c, with zero tailwheel time.

Anyone see any loopholes or potential pitfalls that cost structure? Things like oil changes and incidentals would come out of the account paid into per flight hour.

Looks like you are on track. Obviously, the goal is to keep it fair with the players paying in proportion for their use. Do remember that there are overhaul issues besides the engine. Don't forget about putting some in for instruments, prop, avionics and the like.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Sig600]

Looks like you are on track. Obviously, the goal is to keep it fair with the players paying in proportion for their use. Do remember that there are overhaul issues besides the engine. Don't forget about putting some in for instruments, prop, avionics and the like.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Yeah, thought about that. My potential partner has contacts at Garmin, so we can get stuff at cost which from what he says is about 1/2 off. Plus the plane already has a 430 in it, with your standard 6 pack, mode c, and a CD player. Don't expect to need to replace anything but I've thrown an "incidentals" column into the operating cost spreadsheet for about $5/hour. Looks like after gas (@4.50) with putting money away for oil changes/incidentals and motor money we're looking at about 60/hour. $34/hour or so if you subtract the cost of gas, so that's what we would each be obligated to sock away in a joint account per flight hour. Figure with an 800 hour engine that'll yield us about $15K when the motor reaches 1800 hours and we need to start thinking about overhaul. If we can stretch the motor out to 2200 hour there will probably be enough saved to replace with a brand new one.

 

[videobobk]

I think a big key here is having a good plan, and not being upset when your partner doesn't follow it. I have been in three partnerships (including my 9A) and think it is the best way to fly. But there will be times... The plane isn't there, someone (and only one) wants a new gizmo, no one is there to help on the designated wash/wax day, etc. I know I have more work time in our plane, and I fly it more. I really don't know who has more money in it, and neither of us care. Yes, it is a bit haphazard, but it has worked for three years of building, and an equal amount of time flying. Trust your partner, or don't have a partner. The costs will be what they will be.

Bob Kelly

 

[flyboy1963]

RV costs

Lots of good advice here. Operating costs can be estimated,and unexpected costs are just that.......ONe thing missing.?

more important than how the partnership starts, is how it ENDS. okay, i have not had to go thru that, but write down in excruciating detail, what happens when one of the partners ends up in a smoking hole.
Yes, it's a glass-half-empty exercise, but it's like a pre-nup....you hate doing it, until you find you need it!
will the other guys family come gunning for you with lawyers because you installed the last set of spark plugs?
or as simple as...., one of you wants out? how long and how much does the remaining partner have to pony up?

etc etc. there are tons of wiser partners here that can comment further.

good luck!

 

[tmillican]

Fuel card

Thanks for all the info, I think we've got a good baseline to work from. The only big ticket item in the future is the overhaul on the engine. It's got 815 hours now. I figure if we can get another 1000 hours out of it, and contribute $20/hour, by the time the thing is run out we'll have a sizeable chunk of cash on hand. Plus that way, whoever flew it more, pays more. The rest of the costs we figure will be fixed. Always leave the plane full (thus paying for your gas) and the fixed expenses such as hangar and insurance we split down the middle. The insurance quote is what I'm worried about. Two guys with about 2200 hours each, mostly in military a/c, with zero tailwheel time.

Anyone see any loopholes or potential pitfalls that cost structure? Things like oil changes and incidentals would come out of the account paid into per flight hour.

You are on the right track. One comment having been in a partnership previously is that there are times that you WON'T want to fill the plane up. Late night arrival. Raining. Whatever. The suggestion I would make is to have a credit card that you keep in the aircraft to use for gas. Charge each other a fixed monthly cost for the fixed expenses and a wet rate for the hours flown.

Insurance costs will be high the first year, but don't worry about it. The second year should go down dramatically given your experience levels and ratings.

 

[dhall_polo]

I think a big key here is having a good plan, and not being upset when your partner doesn't follow it.

Good stuff. Partnerships are a great way to share the experience of airplane ownership, not just the costs. There's always annoyances because no two people have the same standard of care, time, or attention, and it can change from year to year. Those are just annoyances as long as the bills get paid.

IMO, The hardest thing in a partnership is upgrades. Someone is always in the position of having to convince the other.

FYI: My insurance last year was high due to low tailwheel time. I was rewarded this year with substantially better rates.

 

[AK4x4]

Long term costs

If you plan on keeping the aircraft for an indefinate period of time and overhauling, engines, props, mags, instruments,...all the "stuff" as needed, my experiance has shown $60/hr is required to cover the maintance. Insurance, fuel, hanger etc. are extra. As you are not the builder of the aircraft, you will not be able to get a repairmans certificate for the aircraft. This means you must hire an A&P to either perform your maintainace, or to supervise and sign off the maintainace you did on the aircraft. Good Luck, Russ

 

[Sid Lambert]

As you are not the builder of the aircraft, you will not be able to get a repairmans certificate for the aircraft. This means you must hire an A&P to either perform your maintainace, or to supervise and sign off the maintainace you did on the aircraft.

Wrong. You only need to pay an A&P for the conditional inspection. You can do all the other maintenance or major changes on your own. Assuming you are comfortable and confident in doing the work.

 

[Sig600]

Thanks for all the insight guys. Hopefully this will serve to answer someone else's question on the topic in the future.

As far as care/cleanliness, the two of us are both pretty meticulous when it comes to caring for our toys so I'm not too worried about that.

I hadn't thought about the legalities of something going wrong, so that was def great advice to have a lawyer draw up an agreement between the two of us. Granted people can sue you for anything regardless of agreements, but I can't see it being an issue if the worst did happen. I'll keep you guys posted on how it works out. We're both still tossing the idea around, and prob won't pull the trigger before late summer.

 

[gvouga]

Numbers from a spreadsheet that I use

The numbers below are from a spreadsheet that I stole from one of my flying buddies and modified for my own use. The total at the end is a little depressing, but boy I have a lot of fun for 15 grand a year!

Greg
RV-7A

RV-7A HOURLY COST

COSTS
Fuel, per gallon 3.99
Oil, per quart 5.00
Oil Filter 19.90
Insurance, per year 1,448.00
Hangar, per year 2,700.00
Brake linings (annual) 35.00
Spark plugs (annual) 17.92
Battery (annual) 130.00
Tires (2) 218.00
Engine Overhaul, 2000 hour 16,000.00
Propeller, 500 hour inspection 600.00
Transponder/static check, bi-annual 300.00
Tax 500.00

USEAGE
Hours flown per year 200
Cruise speed (statute miles/hour) 190
Cruise speed (knots) 165
Fuel flow (gal/hour, average) 10
Oil useage (hours/quart) 7
Oil change interval (hours) 50
Oil, quarts per oil change 6
Tires, hours per set 300

FIXED HOURLY COST
Fuel 39.90
Oil + filter 1.71
Tires 0.73
Engine overhaul 8.00
Propeller overhaul 1.20
Total Fixed Hourly Cost $51.54

VARIABLE HOURLY COST
Insurance 7.24
Tax 2.50
Hangar 13.50
Annual inspection 0.91
Pitot/staic check 0.75

TOTAL HOURLY COST $76.44

COST PER STATUTE MILE $0.40
COST PER NAUTICAL MILE $0.46

TOTAL ANNUAL COST $15,288.71

 

[Berchmans]

$100 Plus or Minus

Over the years I have owned several aircraft both alone and with partners. Currently have Citabria on floats with a partner, and am building a RV 8 alone. All that said if you fly about 100 hours a year plan on spending about $100 per hour for the pleasure...if you only fly 10 hours per year plan on about $1000 per hour...flying more than 100 hours a year won't lower your hourly costs much as you have just about reached the economic sweet spot there...flying less is what kills you both literally and financially...

 

[AZtailwind]

Not me-

The numbers below are from a spreadsheet that I stole from one of my flying buddies and modified for my own use. The total at the end is a little depressing, but boy I have a lot of fun for 15 grand a year!

SNIP!!!

- I woudn't fly if I kept stats like that!
I just know it's da$n expensive. I sold 1/2 of my 182 to get into a 6A partnership. It has been working out OK so far.
But the joy of RV's can not be calculated in a XL sheet

 

[Spindrift]

Check your PM regarding a contract I set up for a build partnership. The advice I got was "any partner is a future ex-partner" so set it up so there are no hard feelings when its time to separate so you can remain friends.