J

jrsites

Well Known Member
One big item I continue to wrestle with as I advance through the "planning kit" is whether or not owning and operating an RV is something I can truly afford.

I have resources at my disposal which will make purchasing the kits/tools/stuff fairly easy. What I'm not so sure of is whether I can afford to fly the darn thing once I get it built. I have a feeling that an airplane is like owning a house - no matter how much planning you do or how many numbers you put into an excel spreadsheet, it ALWAYS costs WAY more than you ever think it will.

I'm planning to do the "pay as you go" method for much of the build, saving a fixed amount each month (about $500) with the hope being to have enough saved up at the finish of each sub-kit to buy the next sub-kit. I also have a reserve of cash I can dip into for overages or big purchases like avionics and engine.

There is part of me that wonders, too, whether this is something that is realistic for me to be considering at this stage in life. I'm in my mid-30s. Married. Three kids. No debt other than house payment (which is pretty high right now due to high property taxes). Good job. Low cost of living (other than aformentioned property taxes). But I'm just not sure if it's "doable" right now. My Dad built an RV-6A with a friend several years ago, and that was when he was making probably twice what I make now in a year and had fewer family commitments (kids out of the house, etc.) He doesn't discourage me from building an RV, but mentions often that it costs more than one might think.

So I guess my question really boils down to: How much do I REALISTICALLY need to budget per month to build, fly and maintain an RV-7/7A/9/9A?

What I'd REALLY like, if anyone is so inclined, is what kind of "life situations" builders have been in when they built. For example, is it doable on $40,000 to $50,000 per year salary with no kids and some debt? On $50,000 to $60,000 per year salary with two kids and some debt? On $60,000 to $70,000 per year salary with six kids? I'm just trying to get an idea from others' experiences whether I'm fooling myself or if it's really doable.

Oh, and one other thing that complicates matters, and which my father advises me to take into consideration. I have access to brand new G1000 equipped aircraft at a wet rental rate of $50/hour. No build costs and I'm sure that an RV is AT LEAST $50/hour on the operating costs. Those airplanes I have access to are great, except for one thing - they're not RVs!

Any input/adminishment/encouragement you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Please don't tell me what you think I want to hear. Tell me the truth. I have a family to provide for, and they come first. As much as I would LOVE to have an RV, I won't do it if it requires ANY risk to my family's financial well-being.

**Edited at Robby's Suggestion**

I am looking at building a basic Night-VFR 7/7A or 9/9A. To be honest, most of the flying I do now is what most would consider an "LSA mission". Drilling holes in the sky around the local area, with the occasional $100 hamburger at some place an hour or so away. That's just the reality of our current situation. Once our kids are older, I'd like for my wife and I to be able to go on weekend trips together.

One other note: I am the only income earner in the family. My wife has a much harder job, but unfortunately it pays very poorly. She has to herd three boys (our two sons and me), and we have a third child due in two weeks.
 
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That's a mightly long question...

RV operational affordability.

My costs (160-hp, -8) are:

hangar/mo - $175
insurance/mo - $135
maintenance & periodic upgrades/mo - $150 (hi); $50 (low)
fuel & oil/mo - $300/mo (10 hrs); $150 (5 hrs)

total $76/hr (hi); $51/hr (low)

What about a partnership with a completed RV??
 
Take my input for what it's worth, since I'm a new builder, only ordered my wing kit last week.

I'm 30, married, hoping to have kids very soon. Income for the next few years will be between $70K and $80K Canadian ($60-$70USD). Wife currently makes about the same. Mortgage is about $240K Canadian right now, no other debts.

In my situation, I think it's possible, but I htink you have to do it for the love of building, more than the love of flying. Something to consider is that after you've finished it and get it flying, you can probably sell it for more than it cost you to build. So if you find later you can't afford to fly it, you may not be out any money (just a lot of time, but if you love building, that's no problem).

I'm also counting on having to get a bank loan at some point to finish this (that is, when I have to buy an engine). But hey, it's only money, and how many people get to say the built an aeroplane??
 
If you never start you will never finish. If you suddenly need cash you will be able to sell what you have for at least what it cost you. My costs are $185 for a hangar a month and around $1400 for insurance a year (on a $55,000 value). I've never figured maintenance costs, but things don't break very often. I spend much more on making changes that aren't really "neccesary". Gas is around $25 to 30 an hour. How many hour will you fly per year? At 100 hrs per year costs would be at least $60/hr without any maintenance items.

A basic 7/9 can be done for $50K ($60K QB) with a new engine (and much less without). Sounds like $50 an hour for a G1000 equipped airplane is fantastic, but as you say, its not an RV. I would say get the tail kit and start pounding.

Yours, Pete
RV-6A
 
I built my -9 with income in the 50k range. I won't include my wife's income because I have not asked her to contribute to my project. We have two school age children. Normal bills and mortgage. Two cars. Got a loan for my engine. Plane took 5 years to complete.
Now, my monthly expenses for the plane are in the $500-600 range depending on fuel. That includes hangar, loan payment, and fuel. Insurance not included. Of course, your per hour cost decreases the more you fly and you don't have to share the airplane with anyone! Unless you are adding new equipment your maintenance costs should be fairly low. I also have very little extra money and rely on my wife to buy the household stuff such as furniture, clothes, and food.
Realistically, I think a household income of at least 70k would be the minimum to take on and support an RV project as well as a home.
My advice is to JUST DO IT! If you are waiting for the light to turn green, it never will.
 
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My 9A

My situation was similar. I started building when I was 33 and my first daughter was 10 days old. I'm the sole bread winner. I was lucky enough to have enough to finish the plane, but had to take on a little debt ($12K) to do so. I did this knowing I could pay it off within 1 year- and I did.

With no debt, I think you're in a great situation. If it were me, I'd not go into debt > 1 year. Don't get in a hurry and put yourself into a financial bind and you'll never regret it. Enjoy the journey.

As far as flying costs, I have flown my 9A for almost 1.5 years now and here's an approximation of my costs.

Hangar $135 per month.

Fuel 3.30 to 3.60/gallon At 8 per hour (high estimate) X 3.60 thats $28.8 per hour.

The Annual cost me $52. I put new break shoes on, and used some RTV, some Corrosion X and other sundries.

Oil - I change oil every 25 hours and use Exxon Elite which is kind of expensive. I use 8 quarts in 25 hours (6 in sump and I add about a quart and a half during that time). At $60 a case, that's $40 over 25 hours or $1.60 an hour.

Insurance - Mine is about $1200 a year (a little less I think) - Ground Not In motion and Liability.

That's it. I haven't had to repair/replace anything outside of break shoes. I'm at 141.1 hours, so that's not a ton of flying. Some months I fly 20 hours, others 5. I have to work, too.

Add to this costs of hotels and camping gear and other things that surround going places.

The reality is that building an airplane is expensive, and if you are perfectly happy with your access to the other plane, then it'll be more cost effective to fly that plane.

But no one builds a plane because its cheaper. They build it because they love aviation - the passion, obsession. Learning everything their is to know about an aircraft, enough to construct it, is something that can't be measured in dollars and cents.
 
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Missing items

In order to offer advice, you may want to update your post with the type of RV you want to build and the mission you are planning for the airplane to address. Pierre Smith has less than 50% of the outlay I have in my RV-8, but it is a fantastic RV-6A and is an impressive ride. If you are willing to go with a midtime engine and some used steam guages/avionics, you will realize up to a 60% saving over the cost of a new engine and new avionics. Billy Waters painted his airplane and it looks great. It probably saved him over $5000 dollars. Your cost to build can be reduced by going with a standard kit over a quickbuild. Having a partner can further reduce your building and operating costs. These guys saved money, but did not cut corners on safety or reliability. If you fly 6o hours a year, it may cost you around $4000 or more when figuring fuel, insurance and maintenance, but is possible. With more information, more qualified individuals than I can give you a more precise opinion of what it can cost to build and operate a dream.

Keep planning.

FWIW
 
I am building my -8 'pay as you go'. I feel I can afford the basic airframe kits 'out-of pocket' (I am setting aside funds each month). However, when it comes to engine, avionics, and paint, I plan on using a Home Equity Line of Credit for those purchases. Those purchases will equal 400-600 a month.
Hopefully I will have enough income left over to fly the thing once it is finished. You should remember that your income will rise over time. You just have to control your spending. If it weren't for around $14000 in 'Home Improvements' my wife made me do over the summer, I probably would have bought a QB.
 
avionics

I've heard it said that avionics can cost as much as the airframe (or even the engine). I don't think this has to be true. For around $5K you can get a DYNON EFIS/EMS unit that is basically all you need for VFR. Add a transciever, transponder, GPS and intercom... I don't see why basic VFR cockpit equipment has to cost any more than $10K (could be considerably less than this I think, if you shop wisely).
But maybe I'm being naive??
 
WOW! I would say that if I can do it, you CERTAINLY could afford to do it! My wife and I together make less than $100k/year (using my base salary-not including comission bonuses-which have not amounted to much of anything this year...), and I have the usual house/two cars/student loans/credit cards to deal with each month. We do not have kids (which does make a difference), but our salaries are not what I would consider all that great either. We do take advantage of 0% cards to make large purchases (this would include sub-kits), and I will have to borrow for the engine.

I play this one day at a time, because there is no telling what my wife and I will be making when this thing is finished. May be less, and I won't fly it as much, may be more, and I'll fly everyday. That day is quite a ways away, and I plan to thoroughly enjoy the build until that day comes. We'll see how things look when the time comes. One thing that IS planned...I will not sell it unless we come to dire straights, and we can't eat.

So my advise is to get started. There's no better time than the present, or as they say...the earlier the better or you'll regret it later.

EDIT: Oh, I'm 29 years old...
 
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This is all very enlightening as I'm looking for answers to these same questions. From what I can tell, my income and "life situations" (read: kids) will make the project doable...just have to see how big of an impact this student loans make...
 
I'm in the same pile with Cjensen. I'm 35, married to version 2.0 (non-flyer), no kids and none planned. Between us our base salary is about 80k, with bonuses and commissions a good year might touch 120k. Decent house, I owe 125k on it still, two new cars, no other significant debt. Severely addicted to flying, tired of the usual rental fleet junk.

I let people around me talk me out of going for my pilots license for a long time, for all the various reasons. One day about 7 years ago I just got a wild hair and started taking lessons, and before I knew it I had passed my checkride with 41.2 hours in my logbook. All the "naysayers" were aghast that I would dare to do such a foolish thing - after all, flying is for professionals and experts, right? These are the same people who will tell others that I'm not a "real pilot", since I don't fly heavy metal with an ATP. Like I said - naysayers. Always were, and always will be.

Same with this project - I'm counting the paychecks until I can order the kit, and the number is getting small. Life is way too short to let others tell you how to live it. Some people get to fly, and the rest get to watch. Only you can make the choice which group you wish to be in. There are cheaper ways to fly, but I can think of none better.
 
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$50/hr wet, why wouldnt you!?!?! You cant get a 30 year old 172 for under $100/hr around here. If you mission is truley LSA'ish, why dump a huge amount of money into an RV? Sounds to me like buying a hot sports car to run errands around town, not really it inteded function. Not trying to discourage you, but from my perspective, being able to fly 100 hours a year on $5k with zero out of pocket up front is a steal.
 
It's not about the dollar value - it's about the experience and the ability to do something that very few can do.
 
G-force said:
$50/hr wet, why wouldnt you!?!?! You cant get a 30 year old 172 for under $100/hr around here. If you mission is truley LSA'ish, why dump a huge amount of money into an RV? Sounds to me like buying a hot sports car to run errands around town, not really it inteded function. Not trying to discourage you, but from my perspective, being able to fly 100 hours a year on $5k with zero out of pocket up front is a steal.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I don't take it as "discouraging" at all. LIke I said, I'm looking for honest feedback, not what you think I want to hear.

Here's the only real answer I have for your question: There is simply NOTHING like the feeling you get from flying a well-executed overhead approach to a beautiful grass strip in an RV. You can do it in a $50/hour production airplane from one of the major GA manufacturers, but it's just...not...the...same.

Strange thing to consider spending $50,000 on, isn't it? :D
 
almost the same profile

I too am in my mid 30s and married with 3 kids. My wife doesn't work. I have some debt and my household overhead is pretty high, but I make quite a bit. I am trying to "pay as you go" on the build and that budgeted amount should roll over into flying the aircraft once it is built. I put back $600.00 a month plus any overtime, etc that comes along. Just like Doug Reeves says in his article on the website - it's basically a nice new car payment.

Will probably borrow money for the engine and avionics. Should be about a 5-6 year plan. Also from a time standpoint I spend 1:30 each day before work on the project and any extra time I can scam on evenings and weekends.
My 2 cents
 
RVs are free.

Dear (didn't post your name - why don't people post their name?),

I'll bullet this from the perspective of someone who was roughly in the same boat as you at one time:
  • 31yrs old when construction started
  • 1 wife / 1 kid at time of start (now 2 kids)
  • 50-60K combined income at start of project (mid 1990s)
Looking back I'd generalize with the following that I do truly believe:
  • You won't regret trying to build it.
  • You WILL regret not trying.
  • At the end of the process you will be a different (better) person because of the people you will meet
  • You will find the money somewhere...don't worry about step #1,365...just step #1.
  • "Take the road less traveled"
  • In the end, if you do things right, you'll be able to sell the plane (if needed) for roughly what you have in it, essentially making it 'free'. The operating costs associated with the hobby would have been spent (probably) on other hobbies/passions had the RV bug not bitten (golf, fishing, motorcycle, sports car, etc.)
Thank God I built a RV. I can't imagine how different my life would be if I hadn't.

Best,

Doug Reeves
 
I'm a pay-as-you-go builder and I'll state up front there's no single "right" way to do this. So all I can offer you is more anecdotal evidence.

When I started the project, I made about $63,000 a year, my wife made another $21,000 or so. I still went out for 10 years (5 before the project started and 5 after) delivering newspapers every morning for another $17,000 or so a year. Of course that was before taxes. Two kids, who at the time were in their early teens.

That was around 2001. I've paid for every kit, but I also sold a share of a radio station group my wife's family owned, which gave me another $40,000. Should've been enough to put me over the top. Wasn't.

I've paid for every subkit with cash and there are no loans out. Kids have gone off to college (community college so it's not a huge amount of money but it's 5-10 grand a year easy), the house only has 11 years left before the mortgage is paid off. I'm making about $84,000 now and my wife is making $31,000 and I'm running out of cash.

Where's the money going? Well, life still has to go on. The kids wrap up a car -- or two -- you assist them in getting off on their own anyway, new windows for the house (you can't let your house go to pot just because you're building an airplane!), and we've also tried to increase our charitable giving etc.

Bottom line. I've still got the finishing kit to get through but if I had to buy the next step (avionics and engine) now, there's no way I can afford it without floating a loan.

Will I be able to afford it? How the heck do I know?

And that's my point. Life is not always a spreadsheet. Sometimes you just have to go forward and see where you end up.

I can assure you, for the most part, when you get into your "older" years and you look back.... if you've lived a good life, you'll realize all the things that happened to you that you never had planned on. Some are good -- a good marriage, great kids, decent jobs. And some aren't so good -- layoffs, deaths etc.

But that's the way it goes. You only get to pass this way once. Take a step into the unknown and see where it leads. You can always turn around.
 
Bob Collins said:
Will I be able to afford it? How the heck do I know?

And that's my point. Life is not always a spreadsheet. Sometimes you just have to go forward and see where you end up.
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Great response Bob!! I had to make a special note about the above quote because that is more or less how I live. My wife isn't so much this way, but I do. I do think of the future, but as far as planning for it (any farther than I have to), I take it as it comes. There is no garauntee of tomorrow, or an hour from now. "Go forward and see where you end up." Well put!
 
I have also gone back and forth on this one as well. I am not so much worried about the plane cost as I could get that back in a pinch as others have said by selling a completed plane. Selling a partial build is another matter. The only way I can justify this with four kids is if they are interested in the build process. I have some practice kits from Van's and will probably get the tools this winter. If the kids think working with Dad on the plane is fun then we will jump in. If no interest I think I will try to partner with someone on a flying RV4 and sloooooow build or retirement build the RV7. Still on wife ver 1.0 and want to keep it that way. Kids love flying with me, my wife has yet to go up. Hanger rent is ~300$ so might be looking for a partner no matter which way it goes.
 
Decisions, decisions

I am reminded daily of a quote that I read over a year ago:

"Eternity is a long time to think about what you should have done."

Establish a plan and build the plane.

If establishing a plan and the future concerns give you chest pains, then scrap the idea and fly the $50/hr. wet plane.

Happy flying.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
RV9-A 942WG slider
RV9-A 942PT tip-up
 
How to afford an RV

At age 31.5, I wanted any airplane. I told a co-worker who was old enough to retire that I was going to build an airplane when I retire. He told me to do it now so that you can enjoy it when you retire.

I asked some of the same questions? How to I afford to operate it and aquire it?

What if SOMEONE gave me the airplane. How much could I afford right now to fly it? Back in 1988, that answer was $75 per week. I figured what it would cost using Van's kits and estimates for what the equipment would cost. It looked like 8 or 9 years it would be paid for and then I could use the same money for flying. I sent $75 from each weekly paycheck to the credit union to pay for airplane parts.

In September 1997, (at age 40) I made first flght. After 9 years and 1 month, I had 1,963.8 hours on the hobbs meter when I put it away after the the South West Formation Clinic. The fantistic people I have met, the places I have been has make this the best value investiment that I have ever made as far as enjoyment.

As for acquision cost, if you add 4% APR inflation over 8 years, I came in ON budget. As for operating expenses, they are higher than what my budget was back in 1988 but this is all my recreation money, vacation money, and I do not watch televison.

Hope this story helps.

I do not know where all the money comes from but I would give up everything so that I can fly. I do buy new vehicles to get me to the airplane and work. I typically make it a BASIC vehicle and do not get expensive ones. Presently I am the first owner of a 2003 GMC Sonoma. 20 MPG and cheap to buy. Rest of my money goes in the airplane. I am now a DAR. I do CHARGE for the DAR service, use the airplane to get me to the airworthiness inspections, and put all the DAR money back in the airplane.

Here are links to two stories in the forum that are must read:

Best of the best. How Rosie flys so much.

Best of the best. Actual operating costs.

Hope my story and my friend Paul's stories help you.

Background info on me. I am single (divorced twice) and no kids. I live in a HIGH cost area. My employer pays below average salaries for the area. I would not work for Boeing if they offered me what they pay me to move here from outside this area (Los Angeles). If I did not have this airplane, I would not live and work here. The airplane allows me to get out of here when I am not working.

If the airplane were taken away from me today, the enjoyment, the experiences, and the FANTASTIC people I have met over the past 9 years 1 month were worth much more than what the airplane has cost to acquire and operate.
 
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Right Time?

I suppose the right time might come along for everything....but there is something to be said for making it the right time for those things that are important to you. My wife and I ordered the empenage kit for our RV-9A project just a few months after both of us lost our jobs! We had no prospects for new employment and a bank acount with no inflow. If there was a time to pull back and defer on our dreams, this was it. But in this incredibly stressful time, our project has distracted us from unnecessary worry and brought us together in ways we had never imagined. The airplane has become more than just aluminum sheets, rivets, and plate nuts. It has become part of the dream that keeps us moving forward together. We still are not fully employed and yet are now nearly half way through the standard build wing kit. Like so many others, we would never trade the friends, the frustration, and the fun that have attended this project.
 
I would look for a partner in building. It cuts down on both purchase and operational costs. You won't be able to fly the plane all the time and if your partner takes the plane you still have the rental at $50/hr. An RV is a lot more fun to fly and the things you learn and people you meet while building is priceless. The tail kit is less than $2000. Order it now!!!! Stop wasting your time with the planning kit and go straight to the ordering kit! I don't think there is one person out there who wished they had waited longer to start building their kit! I ordered the kit before I even had my PPL or before I even started taking flying lessons. If anyone thinks you are crazy for building your own plane, ask them if they have ever seen an RV. The workmanship I saw on the RV's at LOE blew away anything that I have ever seen on a Cessna or Piper.
Good Luck and remember you are one day closer to dying! I don't think you will be on your death bed regretting that you built your own plane. You will just regret that you put it off for so long!
 
Just start

I'm about $25K into what I think will be an $80-90K project. When people ask me "When will you be done?" I tell them "In another fifty or sixty thousand dollars."

I have no idea how I'm going to afford the rest of the kit. I'm paying for the QB kit with a home equity line of credit, but we also have house payments, minivan payments, two kids, etc. I make pretty good money, but it all seems to go somewhere other than RV-7 parts.

However, sooner or later, the minivan payments will end, I'll get a bonus or a raise, and then I can buy the engine. Meanwhile, there's plenty to do on the kit that I have.
 
I turned 30 years old back in March and been wanting to start building my plane. So I told myself, I just graduated from Test Pilot School and turned 30 if I don't start now I will never start. I was racing street bikes before TPS and decided to sell 3 of my 4 bikes and put the money away for my new hobby (building my plane). I said hobby but I meant addiction. I have purchased the tool kit, the tail kit and the wing kit. I am done with the tail and started working on the wings. All the money from selling the bikes has been spent. I am actually thinking about selling my last bike so I can buy the fuse before the price goes up at the end of the year.

I don't have any kids; have a bran new house payment, car payment, student loans, credit cards, dog bills and utilities. I make mid $60s and my girlfriend does not help with the aircraft as far as money goes. I am very very strap for money. I have to constantly make decisions about what to give up to support the aircraft. Like not going out to eat or on trips out of town, things like that. I am putting away for retirement as well. All that said. I don?t have a clue on where the money will come from. I am not one of those persons that does not plan for the future and does not think through prior to making a decision. My decision was to build an aircraft with my own hands, so now I have to figure out where to obtain the funds.

All that said. If you just want to fly LSA type missions and you can do that for $50 per hour. I would do that. If you want to build and fly your own aircraft then just find a way. Another option would be to build an LSA aircraft. Best of luck to you!
 
All that has been said by others I echo. I have 4 kids, wife version 1.0 and a dog version 3.0. I have taken 10 years to get my 6A flying, and still have to complete the interior and paint it.

Sometimes life's responsibilities make dream-chasing a bit more of a challenge. Not impossible, just more challenging. So long as you keep that in perspective, you will be alright. Just don't be too cautious, and never start down the road to attaining your life's desires.

There was an ad for Lancair several years back (ten years come to think of it!) that was my battle cry during the early stages of my project that might apply to you as well....

"Sometimes in life you just have to say, 'Screw it. I'm doing this!'"


Regards,
 
painless said:
"Sometimes in life you just have to say, 'Screw it. I'm doing this!'"
Click to expand...

That darned near made milk shoot out my nose.
I may have to put that on the header of my website when I start building.

Thanks for the laugh and the thoughts.
 
painless said:
"Sometimes in life you just have to say, 'Screw it. I'm doing this!'"


Regards,
Click to expand...

a paraphrase from the movie 'Risky Business'...

always appreciated that quote

my advice is like that of the 'Fiddler on the Roof' [gee, I'm dipping deep into theater this moring aren't I]... balance...

be determined - but flexible about how to get there [and always keep mama happy]

John
 
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