[yakdriver]

An RV9 departed the runway shortly after touchdown at the Twin Falls, ID airport. He took out a taxi light and flipped upside down when the nosegear dug into the dirt. Pilot was Richard Migas of Eunamclaw, WA. He had a pretty good head laceration but is OK otherwise. My friends that helped him and helped remove the wreckage said there was no skidmarks or obvious reson for the plane to veer off like it did. Wind was light and variable at the time. We do get some strange winds around here at times so who knows. At least Richard seems to be OK. Don

 

[prkaye]

I presume the title of this thread should be "RV-9A..." (instead of RV-9).
Yikes, another nose-over. Being a nose-dragger guy, these are really starting to worry me. I really wish Vans, or some 3rd party vendor, would offer a kit for a larger nosewheel mod, which would probably really help with this. I have already decided not to fly off soft fields in my -9A because of the apparent frequency of these noseover events.
A couple of questions:

1) How many tri-gear RV nose-overs have there been in total? Of these:
a) How many on hard-surface runways
b) How many with the new fork design

2) What is the frequency of these (how many in the last year, in the last 5 years?)

3) How does this compare with the number of nose-overs of other tri-gear GA aircraft (Cessnas, Katanas, Grobs, Pipers, etc)?

 

[hydroguy2]

.....

a) How many on hard-surface runways
.........?

You'll notice this accident occurred on a hard surface RY. Also to be fair if you leave the runway in any aircraft all bets are off. I know of a Rocket which left the RY, snapped off one gear leg and the left wing is the only thing that kept it from flipping over.

 

[Ron Lee]

My answer is avoid soft surfaces. I recently went to Baja California (Mexico) and did land on one dirt strip but did not go to Laguna San Ignacio since I heard it might be too soft.

While at it, evaluate how many taildraggers had landing accidents (ground loop).

 

[aerhed]

Question

I've only been in like 3 -A models, but they were all real light in the nose. The 6A's I've been in were really nose light. So why the noseovers? Is it some sort of PIO that gets people dug in? Or is it just little wheels and big badger holes?

 

[yakdriver]

Phil It doesn't look like the nosewheel caused the departure from the runway but dug into the soft dirt off the runway and broke the nosegear off. I'll go look at it today and report back. If you fly your A model properly you will probably never have a problem with the nose wheel. Most are caused by too high of landing speed and not holding the nose wheel off until slowed down. It seems like the majority of the tri gear pilots I fly with let the stick go to neutral on touchdown and also taxi on grass strips without holding full up elevator. Don

 

[Jamie]

Guys...no need to freak out over the nose gear on this one. He LEFT THE RUNWAY. We don't know what he ended up in. Dirt? Sand? Mud? Did he hit a ditch?

The real question here is...why did he veer off the runway?

 

[kentb]

Don't flip out....

I had a friend with a Stinson (read taildragger) that left the end of the runway and flip right over. He wasn't hurt and has sense fixed it back up and is flying it now.

It doesn't matter what kind of gear you have under your plane, if you leave the runway you have a real good chance of damaging something.

In his case he landed on a short grass strip, but a little to hot and when off the end with his brakes on.

Kent

 

[scard]

I've only been in like 3 -A models, but they were all real light in the nose. The 6A's I've been in were really nose light. So why the noseovers? Is it some sort of PIO that gets people dug in? Or is it just little wheels and big badger holes?

The -9A and -7A are quite a bit heavier on the nose gear due to difference in geometry compared to the 6A. The heavy Hartzell C/S prop doesn't help one bit either. However, that being said, I wouldn't suggest that "normal" -9A or -7A nose gear load is the reason for most nose over incidents either.

Tanya gets real mad when I beat on her about absolute directional control on (or above) the runway...

 

[yakdriver]

The area off the runways is very rough at Twin. You would be hard pressed to keep any small wheel airplane upright out there. Don

 

[L.Adamson]

It seems like the majority of the tri gear pilots I fly with let the stick go to neutral on touchdown and also taxi on grass strips without holding full up elevator.

I have to baby my 6A nose gear, as if it's a taildragger. Always thinking about it!

In fact, at Gooding Id. (next to Twin Falls) on Friday, it was so dang windy, that the 6A had to have down elevator just to keep the nose light while taxiing with the wind to the runway.. BTW--- A 9A with me, survived too!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

edit: correction, changed Jerome to Gooding.

 

[David-aviator]

I've only been in like 3 -A models, but they were all real light in the nose. The 6A's I've been in were really nose light. So why the noseovers? Is it some sort of PIO that gets people dug in? Or is it just little wheels and big badger holes?

If a landing is attempted at relatively high speed, the nose gear will make contact first and inevitably cause a pogo like porpoise that gets worse with each cycle - not unlike the same phenomena with a tail dragger when the mains hit hard causing the tail to drop quickly and the increase in AOA relaunches the airplane.

I had it happen one time when trying to salvage a landing with a steep approach and tail wind. The approach speed should have been 65-70 but was 85-90, dumb to even get near the runway smoking along that fast, was rather surprised how quick the airplane turned into a bucking bronco after the NG touched. Full power and a quick go around cured that situation.

It is important to fly the approach and go into the flare at an appropriate airspeed. Anything faster than 1.3 of stall is hazardous as much runway is wasted slowing and the pogo event can wreck the airplane.

 

[yakdriver]

I have to baby my 6A nose gear, as if it's a taildragger. Always thinking about it!

In fact, at Gooding Id. (next to Twin Falls) on Friday, it was so dang windy, that the 6A had to have down elevator just to keep the nose light while taxiing with the wind to the runway.. BTW--- A 9A with me, survived too!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

It was definitely windy Saturday. I drove to Boise and could barely keep the truck on the road it was so gusty. Of course you get plenty of practice with gusty winds down in SLC. Don

 

[Bavafa]

I had a similar experience just a few weeks ago with the exception that I hit a wind sheer just about 10-15 feet off the runway and the plane just came down real fast like a helicopter. I landed on the main, then nose wheel hit and bounce back into the air and before my second bounce or trying to recover I went full power and up around the pattern again. It really scared me and being so mindful of the limitation of the nose gear was the reason for not even attempting to recover. After another attempt at landing, all checked out to be OK with no problem or issues.

 

[John Clark]

Soft surface

Yikes, another nose-over. Being a nose-dragger guy, these are really starting to worry me. I really wish Vans, or some 3rd party vendor, would offer a kit for a larger nosewheel mod, which would probably really help with this.

Sorry Phil, but I really don't think anyone can completely engineer a way out of this issue. Nosedragger or Taildragger, there are going to be limitations on really soft surfaces. Obviously, you can go the "tundra tire" route, but that is counter to the mission of RVs. The "problem" is universal and not limited to 'A' model RVs.

This lad found the soft stuff after departing a 200 foot wide, paved runway in a Cirrus. I find it difficult to blame the nosegear.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Flyfalcons]

Sure can't John, but look how the Cirrus is still upright.

 

[Toobuilder]

The forward swept spring coupled with the low caster nut pretty much assures that once it hooks the ground, it's only going to dig in further. Therefore, in many respects, it it much less forgiving than a straight oleo or trailing link.

That said, the the nose gear is not part of the landing gear... It's simply there to keep the prop off the ground during taxi. Treat it as such and many problems go away.

 

[Jeff Vaughan]

Not Just RVs

Last week we had two aircraft, a Malibu and a Cherokee 6 depart the side of the runway both on x wind days each a day apart. Nose gear collapsed. The planes are parked where you can see them as you drive to your hangar. I was hoping to do some flying myself early in the morning before the x wind picked up. The trees were already moving so I deceided not to become #3. I went to the FBO and found a small group of pilots that had also come out and after viewing the damage and x wind deceided to hangar fly instead. Gets your attention when you see bent up aircraft when you are on final.

 

[kentb]

What could cause it to remain upright?

Sure can't John, but look how the Cirrus is still upright.

Maybe it wasn't going as fast.
Maybe the ground was harder.
Maybe there was some other factor, I don't know.

We just don't know, so being upright doesn't suggest anything about the airplane or landing gear. We would need more information about the accident.

Kent

 

[Toobuilder]

Maybe it wasn't going as fast.
Maybe the ground was harder.
Maybe there was some other factor, I don't know.

We just don't know, so being upright doesn't suggest anything about the airplane or landing gear. We would need more information about the accident.

Kent

However, we must all recognize that the type of nose leg in an RV is known to dig in more as it folds. It acts just like a pole vault, with the same physics (and results) as an Olympic athlete. There are several Youtube videos of RV's flipping over at fairly low speeds due to this. We should not sugar coat this fact. This is not to say that RV's are "unsafe", but we must remember that just like accidents themselves, there are differences in design. The nose gear on RV's are light, inexpensive and simple, but are less tolerant of abuse than many other types.

 

[L.Adamson]

It was definitely windy Saturday. I drove to Boise and could barely keep the truck on the road it was so gusty. Of course you get plenty of practice with gusty winds down in SLC. Don

The flight to & from windy city (Gooding, Idaho on Fri.) was actually very smooth with only a few minutes of bumps at best. That's good cosidering the wind sock was straight out & straining at that. At least it was right down the runway!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[mrreddick]

accident report

Wow! Simply freakin' amazing! Somebody tries to post about his friend having a bad landing and immediately it starts all over again, all the experts start attacking Van's design.
I have an idea, how about not jumping the thread's intent and wish the guy good luck in recovering from his injuries, after reading all the rants about the "unsafe" design, his injuries may be deeper than physical, if he listens to you guys.

 

[yakdriver]

The departure from the runway was NOT caused by the nosewheel. The area where he went off was very rough and any tri gear would have had a hard time staying upright. Vans gear design is just fine in mhop. I have flown A's on grass and gravel and never had a problem. Most flip overs are pilot error. Don

 

[DEWATSON]

I'm going to agree with Mike Reddick........

 

[robertahegy]

I agree, too. This whole thread has been rife with speculation and useless gossip ranting about the nose wheel issue that has already been beat to death.

Roberta

 

[vic syracuse]

Closing the Thread

Yes, it has deteriorated again, so I am closing the thread.

Vic