StefanV

I'm New Here
Hi guys, my home field is 5500' AGL, and had temperatures around 89 degrees this past saturday. I gave 8 rides in the space of 3 hours, and with the last two got vapor lock in the system (engine is a standard carb O320-E3D). I run avgas exclusively, so was a bit surprised to see it happen. After having read the forums, it seems a return line to the one tank will do the trick. Any other suggestions, i.e. return line, and fuel pump shroud, sam james cowl etc etc. Also see guys refer to an article Van published a while back on this issue, does anyone have the link to the article? Any advice will be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Stefan.
 
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Was strange start up was normal, run ups were normal, but as soon as I went past 2000RPM it started spluttering. The mixture was correctly leaned out for the higher altitude.
 
Check other cause

I am not at all sure that your problem was vapor lock in fact I am quite certain it is something else.
Fuel starvation is my guess. This may not necessarily mean that your tank was empty but perhaps your mixture control cable might have moved or the rod ends on the cable started turning thereby leaning out the mixture to cut off fuel flow.
You said " the last 2 flights"? You continued flying by reducing power below 2000 RPMs? The same exact thing happened on both flights?
Mixture was properly set for the altitude? By what means, EGTs or an inch out on the mixture control knob or something like that?
Did you shove the mixture back in when the engine sputtered or manipulated the mixture at all?
Check the simple stuff first before you start modifying the fuel system.
More info please and someone will be able to help.
 
Got A&P to check all the linkages etc, no snags there. Went and flew the plane afterwards, no problems whatsoever, so I still suspect vapor lock was the probable cause on saturday. Going to install a vapor return line to the left tank, not a big mod and should solve the problem in the long run.
 
Here's a pic of the system I installed when I had the carb installed. Used a standard primer valve as the "purge" valve and plumbed the return to back to the tank. I could always tell when I was vapor locking by the sound the little facet pump would make. Worked like a charm. I now have AFP FI and use their mechanical purge valve.

IMG_4385a.jpg
 
Are all of your fuel lines insulated?

When I first flew mine, I did not insulate the aluminum line that went from the Gascolater to the fuel flow meter and that gave me some "issues". After insulating that line, no more issues.

Ive done 10+ "flips" w/ YE's on a 90+ degree day with no issues.
 
My E3D came off a Cherokee 140 and it had a shroud around the fuel pump and a small cooling hose ran through the baffling. I assume it was needed so I put it back the same way. The only time my engine has ever sputtered was on takeoff after a prolonged wait at the end of the runway with the engine running in 100 deg heat. After 100 hours of flight it has never repeated the problem.
 
You do have a boost pump and use it for every take off I assume?

At those temperatures, at that altitude with hot fuel in the wings and a heat soaked engine and mechanical pump, pulling fuel upwards anywhere is going to give you vapour pressure problems. Even with AVGAS.

Usually going through 7000' is where it is mostly a problem for most low wing aircraft.....yes the certified ones too. That is why they have boost pumps!
 
First off, my apologies for this slight thread hijack. Moderators should feel free to remove this post if they feel it does not contribute to this thread.
You do have a boost pump and use it for every take off I assume?

At those temperatures, at that altitude with hot fuel in the wings and a heat soaked engine and mechanical pump, pulling fuel upwards anywhere is going to give you vapour pressure problems. Even with AVGAS.

Usually going through 7000' is where it is mostly a problem for most low wing aircraft.....yes the certified ones too. That is why they have boost pumps!
I cannot help but notice your comment seems to imply that EVERYONE should ALWAYS be taking off with the boost pump on. Just to give a data point for consideration, my engine will not idle with the boost pump on. It will flood out and die. Perhaps it is possible I could flip the switch for the boost pump on during the takeoff roll once I have gone full throttle, in which case, the engine most likely will not flood out but that sure introduces an additional task to perform during a very critical and busy point in the flight. This procedure would also require an additional step during cruise initiation to turn OFF the boost pump. For sure, I would not want to have the boost pump on during any other time except during full throttle applications.

In my risk analysis of the takeoff event, I believe this procedure would be a higher risk than not having the boost pump on at takeoff. The reason being is that it would introduce human errors into the take off and climb out that could be just as dangerous, and perhaps more so, as would having a mechanical pump failure. Although I see the mechanical fuel pump failure as a HIGH risk failure if it occurs, it is offset in my analysis by the fact that this type of failure would be a low probability event. On the other hand, my forgetting to turn OFF the boost pump after full throttle application could also be considered a HIGH risk failure but it would have the added danger of also actually being a high probability event, especially considering how well I understand my own human failings when it comes to remembering things.

Because of the high probability of failing to switch OFF the boost pump when needed, I would consider this event a HIGHER risk task than taking off with only the mechanical fuel pump. It is more likely that I would forget to turn off the boost pump than it is likely for the mechanical fuel pump to fail. Therefore, I choose to mitigate the risk of the high probability event. As for the low probability, but potentially high risk event of the fuel pump failure, well, I do have a boost pump switch ready to flip in a heartbeat's notice less than a quarter of an inch away from my right hand that is grasping the throttle knob.

My checklist for this failure might go something like this:
  • Feel engine sputter
  • Push nose down
  • Fly the airplane
  • Reach up quarter of an inch from throttle with right hand index finger and flip on the fuel boost pump
  • Fly the airplane
  • Wait for fuel to ignite again in engine
  • Fly the airplane
  • If engine reignites make haste to the nearest safe landing area
  • Fly the airplane
  • If engine fails to reignite prepare for emergency landing
  • Fly the airplane

To say that EVERYONE should ALWAYS be taking off with the boost pump on is not necessarily a good thing to be preaching. There are always specific circumstances that may require individualized techniques in every situation. Risk analysis of any task should take all failings into consideration. I believe human failings should also be an important part of that analysis.

Live Long and Prosper!
 
Everyone Should ALWAYS use Boost Pump on takeoff

First off, my apologies for this slight thread hijack. Moderators should feel free to remove this post if they feel it does not contribute to this thread.I cannot help but notice your comment seems to imply that EVERYONE should ALWAYS be taking off with the boost pump on. Just to give a data point for consideration, my engine will not idle with the boost pump on. It will flood out and die. Perhaps it is possible I could flip the switch for the boost pump on during the takeoff roll once I have gone full throttle, in which case, the engine most likely will not flood out but that sure introduces an additional task to perform during a very critical and busy point in the flight. This procedure would also require an additional step during cruise initiation to turn OFF the boost pump. For sure, I would not want to have the boost pump on during any other time except during full throttle applications.

In my risk analysis of the takeoff event, I believe this procedure would be a higher risk than not having the boost pump on at takeoff. The reason being is that it would introduce human errors into the take off and climb out that could be just as dangerous, and perhaps more so, as would having a mechanical pump failure. Although I see the mechanical fuel pump failure as a HIGH risk failure if it occurs, it is offset in my analysis by the fact that this type of failure would be a low probability event. On the other hand, my forgetting to turn OFF the boost pump after full throttle application could also be considered a HIGH risk failure but it would have the added danger of also actually being a high probability event, especially considering how well I understand my own human failings when it comes to remembering things.

Because of the high probability of failing to switch OFF the boost pump when needed, I would consider this event a HIGHER risk task than taking off with only the mechanical fuel pump. It is more likely that I would forget to turn off the boost pump than it is likely for the mechanical fuel pump to fail. Therefore, I choose to mitigate the risk of the high probability event. As for the low probability, but potentially high risk event of the fuel pump failure, well, I do have a boost pump switch ready to flip in a heartbeat's notice less than a quarter of an inch away from my right hand that is grasping the throttle knob.

My checklist for this failure might go something like this:
  • Feel engine sputter
  • Push nose down
  • Fly the airplane
  • Reach up quarter of an inch from throttle with right hand index finger and flip on the fuel boost pump
  • Fly the airplane
  • Wait for fuel to ignite again in engine
  • Fly the airplane
  • If engine reignites make haste to the nearest safe landing area
  • Fly the airplane
  • If engine fails to reignite prepare for emergency landing
  • Fly the airplane
To say that EVERYONE should ALWAYS be taking off with the boost pump on is not necessarily a good thing to be preaching. There are always specific circumstances that may require individualized techniques in every situation. Risk analysis of any task should take all failings into consideration. I believe human failings should also be an important part of that analysis.

Live Long and Prosper!

Everyone that is using a Lycoming engine SHOULD be using the boost pump on takeoff. Lycoming recommends it and has published it in The Lycoming Flyer Key Reprints (Operations).

IF you are not able to run your Lycoming Engine with the boost pump on, something is wrong and needs to be fixed before farther flight.

The following is a copy / paste from page 53 of the above link.

Use of Fuel Boost Pumps with Lycoming Engines

As an engine manufacturer, we are frequently asked about the proper use of the fuel boost pump with our power plants. Although we can?t pretend to be an expert on the fuel boost pump itself, we have some positive recommendations concerning its use with our engines. Where a boost pump is provided by the airframe manufacturer, and the airframe Pilot?s Operating Handbook has a limited treatment of the use of the fuel boost pump, perhaps this discussion can provide the necessary fuel boost pump information for the pilot in order to operate his or her
engine as safely as possible.
It is necessary to supply the engine with a steady, uninterrupted flow of fuel for all operating conditions. Entrapped air, temperature changes, pressure drops, agitation in the fuel lines and other factors affect the release of air and vapor from the fuel system. Under some circumstances where an engine-mounted fuel pump is provided, it may not be able to pump a continuous fuel supply free of excessive vapor.
An effective continuous fuel supply is provided by use of the fuel boost pump. As a general recommendation, the fuel boost pump should be used with Lycoming engines in all conditions where there is any possibility of excessive vapor formation, or when a temporary cessation of fuel flow would introduce undesirable hazards. The conditions under which Lycoming recommends operation of the fuel boost pump are as follows:
1. Every takeoff.
2. Climb after takeoff unless Pilot?s Operating Handbook says it is not necessary.
3. When switching fuel selectors from one separate fuel tank to another, the fuel boost pump should be ?on? in the new tank until the operator is assured there will be no interruption of the fuel flow.
4. Every landing approach.
5. Any time the fuel pressure is fluctuating, and the engine is affected by the fluctuation.
6. Hot weather, hot engine ground operation where fuel vapor problems cause erratic engine operation.
7. Some General Aviation aircraft require the use of the fuel boost pump during high-altitude flight. This will be spelled out in the Pilot?s Operating Handbook.
8. If the engine-mounted fuel pump fails.
If the fuel boost pump is used during ground operation, don?t fail to check the condition of the engine-mounted fuel pump before takeoff by turning the boost pump off briefly, and then back ?on? for takeoff. If the engine-mounted pump has failed, it would be safer to know that on the ground rather than in the air when the fuel boost pump is turned ?off.?
When in doubt, do the safest thing and use the fuel boost pump with Lycoming engines. Don?t be ?stingy? with the boost pump. In most cases, they last the overhaul life of the engine, and are then exchanged or overhauled themselves. AS A REMINDER, the airframe Pilot?s Operating Handbook is the authority if boost pump information is spelled out in it.

For the last 15-years, I have followed Lycoming boost pump recommendations. The only other time I use the boost pump not on Lycoming recommendation list is anytime I am below 1,000 AGL.
 
Sounds like you have a float not sealing properly letting the bowl run over. I have never had a problem with the engine loading up at idle with the boost pump on. Are you sure you have the right boost pump and not a high pressure pump? Just thinking out loud.
 
Sounds like you have a float not sealing properly letting the bowl run over. I have never had a problem with the engine loading up at idle with the boost pump on. Are you sure you have the right boost pump and not a high pressure pump? Just thinking out loud.
just to be clear about my post concerning the boost pump flooding the engine at idle, I am running fuel injection so no float bowl. Also running ECI not Lycoming.
 
There are a few exceptions of course, and the ECI injection system (which not to many folks are familiar with), happens to be unique and is one of them.

But with few exceptions, Steve is correct, boost pump should be on for TO/LDG.
 
...
But with few exceptions, Steve is correct, boost pump should be on for TO/LDG.
And when switching fuel tanks.
(Just to start another pissing match.) <-- That is not aimed at you Walt, or anyone in particular.
 
And when switching fuel tanks.
(Just to start another pissing match.) <-- That is not aimed at you Walt, or anyone in particular.

I never turn my boost pump on for tank switching although it certainly couldn't hurt.

I have watched my fuel pres gauge while switching tanks and do not see any pressure drop. If you switch tanks at a high power setting then this would probably be more important but I only switch tanks in cruise which is generally 65% power or less.
 
I always take off with boost pump ON and when I switch tanks I also switch on the boost pump.

Thanks for all the advice so far guys.

Thought I'd share what the AP has done thusfar regarding a vapor line installation. Left tank was modified exactly as per page 15 & 16 of: www.eci.aero/exp/RV6,7,9.pdf. It's a simple effective solution.

Today he installed a F Swivvel Tee at the mechanical fuel pump. He threaded the one arm of the tee piece and placed a bolt shaft in there with a 0.04" hole down the center which acts as a restiction for the vapor line. This way as I understand it, the electric boost pump can be used to circulate cool fuel through the lines. I know other suggestions have been to T it off right at the carb? I like the idea of being able to use the boost pump to get cool fuel through the lines (similar to a FI system).

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u611/stefanvanstaden/Krugersdorp-20121128-00028.jpg

Effectively I will always take off and land on the left tank, which should prevent any further vapor locks in the system on hot and high days.

Just need finish the hoses tomorrow, will post pics of the final installation.


Would appreciate your thoughts and ideas!

Thanks,

Stefan.
 
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Dummy light

"Because of the high probability of failing to switch OFF the boost pump when needed, I would consider this event a HIGHER risk task than taking off with only the mechanical fuel pump. It is more likely that I would forget to turn off the boost pump than it is likely for the mechanical fuel pump to fail. Therefore, I choose to mitigate the risk of the high probability event"

I personally plan to wire up a dummy light to the fuel pump switch
for this very reason.