[pdal]

As a potential builder, I am curious to hear what pros & cons folks may have ID'ed and how they weighed them in making a decision. I am assuming comparable engine/prop combinations.

 

[DanH]

I'd guess (I have not checked) the big difference to be runway performance. An RV-8 is a STOL machine compared to many.

 

[Mike_ExpressCT]

DON'T BUILD FIBERGLASS!!! Trust me on this...my father and I have a combined over 4000 hours on a fiberglass 4 seater, and can tell you that unless the thought of 1000 hours of sanding appeals to you, it's not worth it!!!!!


On the other hand, if you want a perfect finish and are ok with putting the time in, you can always make a fiberglass airplane perfect...all it takes is filler, sandpaper, and lots of time.

Performance wise, both are great planes

 

[jmartinez443]

Paper or plastic

As a potential builder, I am curious to hear what pros & cons folks may have ID'ed and how they weighed them in making a decision. I am assuming comparable engine/prop combinations.

The big one is going to be whether you'd prefer to work with aluminum or fiberglass. I know of at least one pilot with the tagline "Friends don't let friends fly plastic airplanes"

One of the reasons I chose the eight is interior size. I'm a fairly .. ehem .. portly fellow and there is no way in hail I could squeeze into a glasair. Nice, fast, plane. That is also probably why is a PITA to insure - they land on the fast side (north of 90kts from what I hear).

 

[lsu-rv]

any grass strips?

If you are going to use many grass strips, or as stated before, shorter strips, then go the rv8 route. If you plan to always stay on pavement and do lots of long cross country routes and the glassair fits your size and load well, then thats a nice machine... but so is the 8.

There are so many rv's out there, you just can't beat the network of help and parts.


If you want more details, i can put you in touch with someone who has owned and flown multiples of each kind. He right now is finishing another glassair fg, but really wants a rv8 for the; "saturday fly-out breakfasts to an unknown private grass strip", when his hanger buddies all go in their rv's.

jeff h

 

[kevinh]

Be careful with glass

A number of years ago I started building a Dragonfly (a glass canard taildragger). I was always careful to use the gloves, mask etc... I had read that a small percentage of folks develop an allergy to the structural epoxy, but figured it wouldn't happen to me.

Three years of happy building, then...

One day after a layup (about 70% through this almost plans built project), I was sitting in the living room with friends. Both of my hands started to blister - within 30 minutes, my hands were completely covered with blisters. I had never previously had any sort of reaction to epoxies (We were using "Safe-T-Poxy II" from AS&S).

Off to the hospital where I received steroid shots and drugs. I then proceeded to miss a week of work (I'm a software engineer and it was a week before I could type again).

Not one to stop easily (or possibly not too bright): I then started wearing latex gloves to see if I had developed a latex alergy - nope, the gloves were fine. I then did a test with a small amount of Safe-T-Poxy on the back of a latex glove for 30 mins - the back of my hand turned red, puffed up and blistered. Ok - Guess it is the trace amounts of epoxy. Tried the same test with Aeropoxy. Same result.

Since I was quite far on my dragonfly, I then tried moving up to the black nitrile gloves. Generally worked fine, but two serious problems:

1) The thick rubber made it very difficult to 'feel' the layup. _Really_ tricky to determine the ratio of epoxy to glass/carbon.

2) One day a small drop epoxy must have run down my arm into the glove. Back to the hospital and another week without being able to work.

So - I decided to sell my glass airplane project. A few years pass and a friend and his A&P wife start talking with me about building an RV-10 together. Eventually they decide they can't afford the $, but by then I had the building urge again - I ordered an RV-7 tail kit.

I had basically enjoyed the glass airplane building, but _****_ aluminum was fun - way more fun than the glass plane ever was. The Van's kits are great, the support is great and the community is wonderful. I found (YMMV) that building an RV is just as fun as flying (except the friggen canopy and cowl). I'm really enjoying flying my RV-7A, and in a few years I hope to convince my wife to let us build an RV-8A (or an RV-11 if Van ever makes his glider).

Kevin

ps: Really - these epoxy allergies are rare. But if you develop one after building for a few years it is a 'bummer.'

 

[yakdriver]

Kevin, I had the same problem building a Lancair. Got it about 80% done and developed a deathly allergy to the Jeffco epoxy and had to sell the project. I am almost finished with my 7 and can tolerate the West Systems epoxy if I am very carefull. By the way the Glassair is a lead sled comming out to around 1400lbs empty if I remember right. The 8 will get off quicker and outclimb it easily and the cruise speed will be about the same. Don

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Wow great answers - Well done

Handling - That control harmony, feel, force, responsiveness, hands down the RV. Glasairs go fast but are not great for acro or STOL as mentioned. I just want to say Glasairs are great planes, but it's a totally different mission. RV's are what VAF coin as "Total Performance", doing many things well with out compromising: Acro, STOL, Fast X-C, Payload, Range, Ease of maintenance... blaa, blaa, blaaa.

Safety - Sorry I know people (glass-builders) hate this or are unaware, but composite is not great for crashworthiness. Why? It is stiff and strong and fails abruptly, verses metal that deforms and bends, absorbing energy.

Under the safety banner STALL SPEED - RV's have relatively slow approach and stall speeds. If you ever need to land off-field, trust me the RV is the plane you want to be in, verse any Glasair. Speed verse kinetic energy is a square root function. A Glasair II TD/FG stalls at 73mph/63kts; the RV-8 stalls @ 51mph (solo) / 58 mph (gross). Assume the Glasair II spec of 73mph is at gross wt., (73/58)^2 = 58.4% more kinetic energy!

I also believe the older Glasairs had a wet wing center section. Fuel in the cockpit? Not good if I'm correct. RV's have wing tanks in a sealed leading edge. Is the RV crash proof? No, its a small plane and there's not a lot of structure, however with slow stall, metal monocoque structure, they do seem to do well in accidents. In typical things like a hard landing, damage is often limited to just the gear legs, which are an easy bolt in replacement.

Performance?
If you have your Glasair I or II FG or TD all tuned-up, it should be faster than a RV-8 or RV-8A for the same HP? The book says @ 180HP

Glasair FT or TD 228 mph / 198 kts top speed
RV-8 or RV-8A approx 214 mph / 186 kts top speed

Looking at this years Airventure Race where RV's and Glasairs, RV-8's posted a 235mph and 224mph and Glasair I's and II's, 248mph and 240mph. So you see about 16 or 17 mph difference.

I'll say RV's tend to make vans published figures, some don't but more meet or exceed Van's book values. I've found Glasair's are much slower than expected some times, withstanding the fine racers above. May be they are older, have fixed props that are not ideal? RV's may have the latest Hartzell Blended prop and new cowl mods?

You can look in the race circuit (not reno but the 2 hour X-C races), RV's do well, especially the Glasair I TD. The Glasair II has a wider/taller fuselage, so the Glasair I should be a little faster. From the Airventure race the Glasair II may lose about 8 mph to the Glasair I.

As I understand it, RV's beat the heck out of similar Glasairs in dog fights. The Glasair wing bleeds more speed when pulling G's, and low stall is an advantage for the RV. In dog fights, turning and maintaining energy is key. I've not done acro in a Glasair, but I have it on good authority they are not as fun to do loops and rolls in. Sure a Pro flying a Glasair III is fun to watch at the show, but I'm talking about mere mortals flying acro for fun. RV's are fun to fly and make you think you are better than your really are, very docile and forgiving.

Last, I find RV's have a more comfortable seating position. Preference really, but there is more room in the RV's on a long flight. Compare RV-6/7 and Glasair II. The RV-8 has fwd and rear cargo areas. Glasair speed comes from the shallow fuselage and small frontal area. You basically have to sit with your legs stretched out in front of you, leaning or laying back. In a RV you more or less sit in a normal upright position with feet lower than hip. The rear seat seater in RV-4/8 may have legs stretched out more, but in the side-by-side RV's or front seat of the RV-8, you sit in a comfortable position. Also the bubble is better visibility. Other wise ITS ALL GOOD.

 

[Jerry Carter]

Just flew from Memphis to OSH and back last week right seat in my friend's Glasair Super II RG. A little faster than my 8A, but very cramped feeling (I'm 5'10", 165 lbs). The forward visibility sucks. Very heavy stick forces compared to my airplane. I didn't like it at all.

 

[Mel]

I've got time in Glasair I, II, & IIIs. To me they are "tight", and I'm 5'4" with short legs. (OK guys, no comments on the other dimensions). In my opinion they are nowhere near the maneuverability of the RV. They do go fast and use up runway. Get some time in both before making your decision.BTW, I also built a Dragonfly MkII. Now I fly an RV. The Dragonfly would NOT like my present 1500' strip.
Also, I DO NOT like compost construction. YMMV.

 

[RVbySDI]

One smelly airplane!

Also, I DO NOT like compost construction. YMMV.

Man oh man, I bet those compost airplanes must really stink! I can see why you wouldn't like them.

 

[pdal]

Many thanks for the responses - very thoughtful stuff here.

The main advantage I thought I had identified for the RV-8 (before I posted my question) was the amount of builder & owner experience/support/cooperation available from sources like VAF. I'd enjoy flying either airplane but I'm ~ convinced I'd have a higher probability of successfully completing - and get more enjoyment out of building - an RV-8.